Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: I thought the law protected me.

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    5

    Post imported post

    Two months after being arrested on a misdemeanor charge of "menacing", I have still not been able to get any acknowledgment by the Nelson County Court that they have my handgun. The handgun which was not on my person at the time of my arrest but, instead, taken from my locked vehicle after my being handcuffed and put into the police car.

    I am 59 years old and my intention was to confront the M***** L***Antique Mall's manager regarding the possible theft of my property and numerous early closings and excessive number of Holidays he was taking off. How many stores close on Groundhog Day, Valentines' Day, Mothers' Day, Fathers' Day and Halloween?

    I had talked to him several times before and only got the "run around"... he didn't think closing the store early or on all those Holidays was depriving me of the opportunity to sell my goods. Addressing the articles that were missing, he suggested that I had "misplaced" or taken them home and just didn't remember.?

    This young man, who was hired by an out-of-town owner of the business, is 24 years old, keeps the popular appearance of some of the younger set, pants baggy and slung low, unshaven, rude to customers and disinterested in the business he is paid to oversee. I was very disappointed to have my antique goods disappear from locked cabinets and then to be ignored when I protested.

    On an early morning trip to the doctor, the Medical Office right next door to the Antique Mall, I saw a moving van backed up to their loading dock. I had some concern at this sight, it was unusual.
    Well, was someone there two hours before opening time to move in or were they moving out? Were these "movers" actually burglars? After my doctors' appointment, the moving van was now gone and the store manager's car was just driving away. I wanted to know what was going on? It was past opening time, the place was dark, nobody appeared to be there, as far as I could tell.
    I called the manager's cell phone several times over the next half hour while waiting out front. I got no answer, then called another of the stores vendors to ask if she knew why the store was closed, finally gave up and went home. Once at home, I tried again, then the manager answers the phone, won't answer my questions and just hangs up on me.

    At 59 years old, I was pretty sure I needed some self-defense. I drove back to the store to see him, where he was always accompanied by his friend, a young man also in his mid 20's. and entered the store with my .45 in my belt.

    I walked up to the counter with my pistol in plain sight. The store manager had only a few days before displayed a Tech 9, 30 round auto pistol and had stated his intention to shoot his landlord with it, following an earlier disagreement about unpaid rent.

    When I questioned his store policies and his work practices; the presence of a moving van, the regular late opening and early closings, unusual holiday practice, etc, he became angry, ordered me out of the store, just picked up the phone and dialed 911. Wow, it took a while to sink in that he was calling the cops about me, he refused any discussion, became very angry and started screaming at me. Another of the vendors at the store, she witnessed all of this, said Hey, you'd better put that gun in your car! At first I said no, I have every right to carry it...and then I thought about how the police might react. I didn't want want them to be concerned about their safety, and I became concerned that I might be shot! I walked out, put the pistol in my truck's glove compartment and locked the truck. I wasn't going to leave and went back inside to await the arrival of the police.
    Well, they descended on the store, six police cars... Bardstown PD, Nelson County Sheriffs' and KY State Police and I am wide-eyed, saying Holy Mother, please protect me!

    Shortest part of this story, I was arrested for menacing,(the kid was in tears) a misdemeanor charge. After I was cuffed and placed in the police car, the Bardstown PD took my keys, opened my truck and confiscated my pistol.
    My attorney struck a bargain with the prosecutors' office, I entered a guilty plea for "menacing", i.e. scaring the young man, and I only need to stay away from the store and not contact him for two years. After that, I am told that I won't have any kind of record except the one burned into my brain of being arrested, having the wife worried sick and spending the day in jail.

    I just wanted to put that very bad day behind me. I'm still trying to get my pistol back, I don't even see a reference to it in the police report or the court records, no receipt or anything to acknowledge they even have it.

    I think my civil liberties have been violated, I've been deprived of my right to protect my home, my wife and myself, my right to carry that firearm openly as guaranteed by the Commonweath's Constitution.

    I have no criminal history, I had some unpaid traffic tickets over thirty years ago and did see the inside of a police station. Otherwise, I've just worked, paid my taxes, raised my kids and retrired.

    Being thrown in jail was a shock and a surprise to me but not to my young friend...he's been arrested on numerous occasions, drug charges and burglary but his long, fantastic and perjured statement to the courts was believed above mine.

    Where's the crime? Any suggestions from the readers?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    danville ky, ,
    Posts
    8

    Post imported post

    WOW!!!!!!!! i do not know what to say! i just hope that everything gets worked out.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Alabama, ,
    Posts
    1,338

    Post imported post

    What did your lawyer say about the gun? He wants you to plead guilty,
    and does't put in that they must return the property to you at the court house
    before you will enter any plea? Best to start with him, that is shoddy work product.

    That is the only good thing about the electronic keypad locks, you don't have to give
    them the combo to open the car.
    But with that many cops showing up I would have locked the keys in the truck also.
    But waiting inside was the mistake, leaves you open to a tresspass charge. Wait
    outside if you must.

    Time to open an E-Bay account and move business online.


  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    5

    Post imported post

    Not having much experience in this sort of thing has worked to my disadvantage, not that I want to.
    My attorney did say, after it was over, that he should have done as you mentioned He is moving to correct the error but the issue isn't taking priority yet.
    You know what, I wasn't interested then in spending the $2,500 fee to have a jury trial over a misdemeanor. Things have changed now and the cost is becoming of less importance. I resent being pushed around by this pompous judge and the court system. I want my property and my rights restored.
    One of the most alarming things is that the pistol's serial number leads to my doorstep and I have no idea who has possession and where it could end up.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917

    Post imported post

    So what was the original charge?

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Olive Hill, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    186

    Post imported post

    "menacing".

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hodgenville, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,261

    Post imported post

    I wish you the best of luck and don't quit. Years ago, I was criminallycharged with something that I was 100% right in doing. I was offered a plea or severe jail time. I figured "go for broke" and I persevered. If I am right on something, I do not give in.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    5

    Post imported post

    That seems pretty clear to me, even though it was not mentioned by my attorney or anyone else. Seems the DA didn't inform my barrister, didn't know either, when they talked about returning my property.
    At least I haven't lost my right to carry or obtain a concealed carry permit...or I don't think I have?

    Thanks for the information. I'll give my attorney a call and have him update his "knowledge base".

  9. #9
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    949

    Post imported post

    OldMan_SelfDefense wrote:
    That seems pretty clear to me, even though it was not mentioned by my attorney or anyone else. Seems the DA didn't inform my barrister, didn't know either, when they talked about returning my property.
    At least I haven't lost my right to carry or obtain a concealed carry permit...or I don't think I have?

    Thanks for the information. I'll give my attorney a call and have him update his "knowledge base".
    This is a good lesson to others here. Get a 2nd amendment friendly attorney. I think the NRA or GOA can put people in contact with such attorneys.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Confederate Territory, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    49

    Post imported post

    People do not get arrested for carrying firearms , they get arrested for acting like an ass. This incident is proof of that. You got off easy.

    It was his property , agree with him or not you should have left when told to. If it was reversed and he came to your property looking for a confrontation and refused to leave what do you think should be done to him?

    Open carry is not smart , legal or not it is stupid,

  11. #11
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    949

    Post imported post

    Hellbilly wrote:
    People do not get arrested for carrying firearms , they get arrested for acting like an ass. This incident is proof of that. You got off easy.

    It was his property , agree with him or not you should have left when told to. If it was reversed and he came to your property looking for a confrontation and refused to leave what do you think should be done to him?

    Open carry is not smart , legal or not it is stupid,
    I agree with you up till the last part. People may do things that are not smart while OCing, but in general, OC not being "smart" and your assertion that it is "stupid" is irrelevant to the right to do so. On what points do you base your assertions? The right to carry openly, I believe is based on the fact that it is an act of honesty in itself, in that you are not hiding the fact that you are armed. They can tell you to leave if they don't like it. Concealing has been interpreted as being inherently dishonest, and is one reason why the KY Constitution allows the legislature to regulate concealment of deadly weapons.

    To counter your assertion, some may argue that OC deters some criminals, as in a recent incident at a gas station robbery that may have been foiled by someone who was OCing. Concealing a gun does not have this deterrent effect. If you disagree, perhaps police officers should exclusively patrol in unmarked cars and work undercover. It's my opinion, that that while it isn't the job of citizens to deter criminals, you have to recognize the effect is there. Police cannot be everywhere at once, and having armed law abiding people that carry guns openly sends a strong message to would be criminals, thugs and gangsters, that we will not be victims.

    An armed society is a polite society. Some OC to make a political point, and some folks get offended at the sight of a holstered gun. They'll get over it.

    People don't have a right to go around with an irrational and unjustified fear of a gun in plain sight, and attempt to use government (man with a gun call) to violate Constitutionally guaranteed rights of others, because they are not comfortable.


    For these reasons, I believe OC is the smart thing to do. Then again, that's my opinion. Welcome to the OC forums!

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    5

    Post imported post

    Hey, I'm listening and I'm learning...confronting this guy in that way was dumb.
    I should have called the cops the first time my property came up missing from his store. I should have called the cops when he showed that Tech 9 and made a threat against his landlord. I should have taken my goods elsewhere when they decided on a 24 yr old ***** to run the business.
    I didn't do that...but I did learn from this.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Confederate Territory, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    49

    Post imported post

    Statesman wrote:
    I agree with you up till the last part. People may do things that are not smart while OCing, but in general, OC not being "smart" and your assertion that it is "stupid" is irrelevant to the right to do so.

    Criminals look for the means to get what they want , regardless of how well behaved you may think you are they will exploit that you are carrying a firearm if they know about it. The simple fact he was openly carrying gave the man something to report , add in that he was tresspassing and looking for a fight and it is a slam dunk for the county attorney to prosecute. What is smart about helping the criminal ? If no gun had been involved in the call ( concealed carry ) it would have probably been one officer to show up and they may very well have worked things out there instead of an arrest.

    On what points do you base your assertions? The right to carry openly, I believe is based on the fact that it is an act of honesty in itself, in that you are not hiding the fact that you are armed. They can tell you to leave if they don't like it. Concealing has been interpreted as being inherently dishonest, and is one reason why the KY Constitution allows the legislature to regulate concealment of deadly weapons.

    This is the real world with big boys rules. The code of conduct you are quoting only exists in fictional hollywood movies and fictional books. Your a good guy if open carry and a dishonest person if concealed ?? The constitution also allows the legislature to regulate the open carry of firearms if they choose , does that make it dishonest to open carry??

    To counter your assertion, some may argue that OC deters some criminals, as in a recent incident at a gas station robbery that may have been foiled by someone who was OCing. Concealing a gun does not have this deterrent effect. If you disagree, perhaps police officers should exclusively patrol in unmarked cars and work undercover. It's my opinion, that that while it isn't the job of citizens to deter criminals, you have to recognize the effect is there. Police cannot be everywhere at once, and having armed law abiding people that carry guns openly sends a strong message to would be criminals, thugs and gangsters, that we will not be victims.

    There is no set behavior of criminals , some will kill for little reason and some will not. Nobody knows for sure what they will do until it is done. Anything else is guesswork. Maybe they will take a 2nd thought before robbing a store or maybe they will just shoot you first and then rob the store. No way to know for sure until it happens. The criminals that are scared off by the mere sight of a handgun are not the ones to be worried about the most.

    An armed society is a polite society. Some OC to make a political point, and some folks get offended at the sight of a holstered gun. They'll get over it.

    The carry of a firearm isn`t a game. This is the biggest mistake I think the open carry crowd make. There is a thread on the board now about a meet and greet in Bowling Green where they want to call the media. It isn`t about getting your 15 minutes of fame and many that open carry do not even begin to understand the mindset that should go along with the carry of a firearm.

    People don't have a right to go around with an irrational and unjustified fear of a gun in plain sight, and attempt to use government (man with a gun call) to violate Constitutionally guaranteed rights of others, because they are not comfortable.

    I have no fear of the firearm , it is the idiot carrying the firearm that is sometimes the problem.


    For these reasons, I believe OC is the smart thing to do. Then again, that's my opinion. Welcome to the OC forums!

    What and how you carry is up to you , I don`t have any issues with someone who carries open. I simply feel the arguments for it are based on a perfect world where everyone does the right thing. The problem is this isn`t a perfect world and bad things happen.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Hellbilly,

    I was a little skeptical of open carry initially, also. Spend some time reading the forum to see if, like Ben Franklin said,

    For, having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    949

    Post imported post

    Hellbilly wrote:
    Statesman wrote:
    I agree with you up till the last part. People may do things that are not smart while OCing, but in general, OC not being "smart" and your assertion that it is "stupid" is irrelevant to the right to do so.

    Criminals look for the means to get what they want , regardless of how well behaved you may think you are they will exploit that you are carrying a firearm if they know about it. The simple fact he was openly carrying gave the man something to report , add in that he was tresspassing and looking for a fight and it is a slam dunk for the county attorney to prosecute. What is smart about helping the criminal ? If no gun had been involved in the call ( concealed carry ) it would have probably been one officer to show up and they may very well have worked things out there instead of an arrest.

    While I cannot speak for others, I don't schedule my daily activities around what criminals might or might not do. Doing so is an exercise in futility. There is no slam dunk in a case where the prosecutor bargains with the defendant to enter into a guilty plea for menacing. This means to me, that he actually has a weak case. I agree with you on the call, in that there wouldn't have been one most likely. I'd say the gun prompted the property owner to call the police. It's not a good idea to confront someone, angry, whilst open carrying!

    On what points do you base your assertions? The right to carry openly, I believe is based on the fact that it is an act of honesty in itself, in that you are not hiding the fact that you are armed. They can tell you to leave if they don't like it. Concealing has been interpreted as being inherently dishonest, and is one reason why the KY Constitution allows the legislature to regulate concealment of deadly weapons.

    This is the real world with big boys rules. The code of conduct you are quoting only exists in fictional hollywood movies and fictional books. Your a good guy if open carry and a dishonest person if concealed ?? The constitution also allows the legislature to regulate the open carry of firearms if they choose , does that make it dishonest to open carry??
    I wasn't referring to a code of conduct, I was speaking to the acts themselves, and how they have been interpreted in the past, and in the present. This has nothing to do with movies or fiction, rather, it is historical fact. I agree however, that concealment in modern times does not necessarily consitutute dishonesty, but the act itself is dishonest in the sense that you are "hiding" your weapon. Criminals conceal their guns, they don't carry openly. This is why the act is deemed dishonest.

    From my recent understanding, Holland v Commonwealth decided that, and I quote: "In our state, the legislature is empowered only to deny citizens the right to carry concealed weapons..... The only limitation concerns the mode of carrying such instruments..." Therefore, Open Carry is a mode that cannot be legislated without changing the KY Constitution. Other states may be able to regulate OC, but not KY. Did I mention I am glad I live here?


    To counter your assertion, some may argue that OC deters some criminals, as in a recent incident at a gas station robbery that may have been foiled by someone who was OCing. Concealing a gun does not have this deterrent effect. If you disagree, perhaps police officers should exclusively patrol in unmarked cars and work undercover. It's my opinion, that that while it isn't the job of citizens to deter criminals, you have to recognize the effect is there. Police cannot be everywhere at once, and having armed law abiding people that carry guns openly sends a strong message to would be criminals, thugs and gangsters, that we will not be victims.

    There is no set behavior of criminals , some will kill for little reason and some will not. Nobody knows for sure what they will do until it is done. Anything else is guesswork. Maybe they will take a 2nd thought before robbing a store or maybe they will just shoot you first and then rob the store. No way to know for sure until it happens. The criminals that are scared off by the mere sight of a handgun are not the ones to be worried about the most.

    Agreed! I'd rather be armed, concealed or not, when that time comes. We just can't predict where violence will strike, and you can't easily strap a cop to your hip.

    An armed society is a polite society. Some OC to make a political point, and some folks get offended at the sight of a holstered gun. They'll get over it.

    The carry of a firearm isn`t a game. This is the biggest mistake I think the open carry crowd make. There is a thread on the board now about a meet and greet in Bowling Green where they want to call the media. It isn`t about getting your 15 minutes of fame and many that open carry do not even begin to understand the mindset that should go along with the carry of a firearm.

    I think you will find the vast majority of people here know that open carry (or concealed for that matter), is not a game. It's a right that comes with a heavy responsibility. Please explain why you think it is a mistake. These meet and greets have been going on for quite sometime, all over the country, and without incident, other than police showing up to investigate on occasion.

    Indeed, this isn't about fame, it's a political movement to protect the right to openly carry. If we do not exercise it, it will be lost in due time. Many who DO carry understand the mindset that comes with the carry of a firearm. We should be teaching those who do not, not discouraging them from openly carrying.

    People don't have a right to go around with an irrational and unjustified fear of a gun in plain sight, and attempt to use government (man with a gun call) to violate Constitutionally guaranteed rights of others, because they are not comfortable.

    I have no fear of the firearm , it is the idiot carrying the firearm that is sometimes the problem.

    Ditto on that one!

    For these reasons, I believe OC is the smart thing to do. Then again, that's my opinion. Welcome to the OC forums!


    What and how you carry is up to you , I don`t have any issues with someone who carries open. I simply feel the arguments for it are based on a perfect world where everyone does the right thing. The problem is this isn`t a perfect world and bad things happen.

    Yep. It isn't a perfect world, which is why we openly carry. There is risk in everything we do, and bad things will continue to happen either way. Mistakes will be made, and others will learn from them. I for one feel that guns should not be scorned & relegated to hidden enclosures and purses. Besides, I carry a Kimber, and they are too pretty to conceal.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Confederate Territory, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    49

    Post imported post


    Concealed carry is not dishonest , if that is beyond the understanding of the OC crowd on this board then the discussion of OC versus CC is a waste of time on here. I won`t bring it up again.

    The gov`t can regulate anything they choose . It may not be right , it may not be legal but unless you have the funds and the time to fight it for years in court they can and do as they wish quite often. The US Constitution also has a little clause in it about arms......How many years and how much money did it take for DC residents to be allowed firearms and even now there are so many restrictions do they really have the right even now ?

    For the most part I agree with any type of carry , much better than no carry at all. It will take us all to stand up to the anti-gunners.

    If you carry a 1911 you are probably OK , , now if you carried a tupperware pistol then we might have a problem.











  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    5

    Post imported post

    After making a second request for the release of my property, the lawyers office called to say the order was signed by the judge, copies went to the Commonweath and to the Bardstown PD. I picked up my copy and stopped by the Police Dept.
    My gun was returned along with the holster, the extra clip and a handful of cartridges.

    Also took home a free calendar with all the department member's pictures on it,
    nice poster size for my garage.

    I said it before, but after my arrest I was nothing less than happy with the professional way the PD treated me. They were courteous and respectful, as I was towards them.

    Yep, I know some folks are thinking it's BS. That's not my problem

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    OldMan_SelfDefense wrote:
    Hey, I'm listening and I'm learning...confronting this guy in that way was dumb.
    I should have called the cops the first time my property came up missing from his store. I should have called the cops when he showed that Tech 9 and made a threat against his landlord. I should have taken my goods elsewhere when they decided on a 24 yr old ***** to run the business.
    I didn't do that...but I did learn from this.
    Hey, it takes a big man to admit a failing. You're not the first one to make a mistake, and you won't be the last. I've had my own "learning experiences" too.

    I'm glad you got your gun back.

    Stick around, learn more about OCing, rights, etc., and educate people here and in the "real world".

    Again, congratulations.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Free, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    3,855

    Post imported post

    You should not have pled guilty. If you think that it "goes away" magically after two years, you're incorrect--or had incompetent counsel. You have a misdeamenor conviction--they don't disappear by themselves. You need to file a motion for expungement two years from now. Until then, you have a criminal record. If you have no other criminal record at that time, it will likely be granted. Failing that, you have a police record and a conviction forever. A good lawyer should have gotten you deferred judgement, charges in abayment--whatever your state calles it, with a not guilty finding. Upon good conduct--stay away from the store, for six months to a year, the charge is dropped, as well. Expungement then is virtually automatic. And in the two years intervening, you have no police record. If you're arrested for something over the next two years, you have a criminal record and that can well be held over your head and could decide the new charge to your detriment.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •