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Thread: Noobie Thread - Suggestions from those who have been there.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    It seems interest in exposed carry has been picking up, and since the Nordyke ruling has come down in favor of incorporating the 2nd, I‚€™m sure many will perceive this as the starting bell for much more open carry activity. But in reviewing some of the more recent posts of first time experiences, it seems that some of the suggestions that some of the veteran members her have dispensed is not reaching our enthusiastic first timers.



    With that in mind, the following list is intended to lay the ground rules to successful open carrying in the state of California.



    1) Be familiar with and obey the law. You will need a working knowledge of the applicable penal codes, Federal laws, as well as county and local ordinances. Your knowledge should be deep enough that you can cogently explain the law to anyone you might encounter.

    2) Treat everyone with courtesy. You may think your only purpose to carry a firearm to defend yourself or exercise your right to keep and bear arms, but you are also an ambassador for the second amendment and how you are perceived directly affects how gun owners are viewed. Smile, make eye contact, say hello. Take time to answer questions. Be friendly. Diffuse irrational fear.

    3)Be properly equipped.

    A) You should have a belt holster that fits the weapon you are carrying with a minimum of level-one retention. More retention is better. It has been suggested and I think I‚€™d agree, it would be wise to carry in a drop leg or thigh holster- not because it is ‚€˜tacticool‚€™ but because it would reduce the possibility of being accused of a 12025 violation.

    B) You should have a digital voice recorder with sufficient recording time to remain on continuously while you are in public.

    C) You should have a secure, fully enclosed locking case for your firearm. You will need this to comply with certainno weapons areas exemptions.

    D) You should have some pamphlet or memo detailing the legalities of open carry so you can hand them out to interested parties.

    E) You should have committed to memory a phone numberof an attorney in case you are arrested.


    F) Carry a genuine working firearm. Do NOT carry a toy gun or an imitation firearm. Aside from being silly-Such action may be infact, illegal. (Please see PC12550, 12555, and 12556)

    4) Bring friendly witnesses. In addition to having a running audio recorder you should be accompanied by other open carriers or supportive friends in the event you have a police encounter. An audio recorder is a blind witness, only recording sound and does not capture things like attitude or demeanor or intent. It has been evidenced in prior events that police appear less inclined to conduct a loaded check on open carriers in groups or three or more.

    5) If you should have a police encounter, comply with police and refer once again to #2.


    6)Do not touch or handle your firearm unncessarily in public. No one should touch or handle your firearm but you or law enforcement in the course of conducting a 12031(e) inspection.


    7) Do not carry a map detailing where all the school zones are located. This will not help you in the event you are stopped by police no matter where you are.

    8) You should have $5,000 to $10,000 for a legal defense in the event you are arrested and charged.

    9) Do not be in a rush to post your police encounter on a public forum for everyone to read. In many cases, divulging certain details are first, not necessary and second, could give police a reason to revisit the event, as they do read these forums. Sharing your encounter is beneficial for other activists, but you do have a 5th amendment right not to incriminate yourself.


    10) Do not ask permission to open carry or seek the approval of businesses or law enforcement. It has been said that it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. Asking permission is an invitation to be turned down- what's more, is asking permission or asking about what a businesses policy on carrying weapons is may instigate a response to create a policy that wasnt there before.




    If anyone can think of any other requisites to sucessful open carry, PM me and I will amend the list.

    Last edited by ConditionThree; 10-16-2010 at 01:17 AM.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Good advice.

    I haven't UOC here in CA yet just because everytime I want to go shoot I have to make phone calls to set up appointments to retrieve my guns, I don't have $$$ coming out my a55 to get a lawyer, and meeting up with others takes time and planning.

    I miss WA already.

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    I would add one other item. Watch this video, several times, and commit its advise to memory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI...layer_embedded



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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    Great write up. I can attest to #8, I made that rookie mistake recently.

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    ConditionThree wrote:

    4) It has been evidenced in prior events that police appear less inclined to conduct a loaded check on open carriers in groups or three or more.
    6)Do not carry a map detailing where all the school zones are located. This will not help you in the event you are stopped by police no matter where you are.

    4. doesnt mean u should LOC in incorporated areas. I know its common sense but im sure a newbie might take that wrong. Just as C3 stated abiding the law is a must.

    6. i can imagine the stories the press could fabricate about a crazy 2A supporter OCing with a map of all the local schools.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    btt

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    Another importaint thing. . .

    In connection with having a voice recorder you should also have the connections, skill and programs to transfer your recordings to your computer as quickly as possible after an encounter.

    There was a time I lost an interaction because the batteries died before I could transfer the recording. Luckily I had backup video.



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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Theseus wrote:
    Another importaint thing. . .

    In connection with having a voice recorder you should also have the connections, skill and programs to transfer your recordings to your computer as quickly as possible after an encounter.

    There was a time I lost an interaction because the batteries died before I could transfer the recording. Luckily I had backup video.

    Actually I think what your're getting at is that you should select a recorder that does notrely onvolatile memory- ie: forgets when you turn off the power. My Sony recorder will save audio clips even if the batteries are taken out and replaced or the unit is turned off.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    btt

    artwork by oleg volk:

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    BTT
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    BTT
    btt is right



    artwork by oleg volk:

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    btt

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    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    i will be purchasing another magazine this one will remain unloaded but in my weapon. That still is considered an unloaded weapon correct?? I just keep getting a crap load of dirt in my mag well

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    I believe the salient point is that there isn't ammo "placed into a position from which it can be fired" if you have an empty magazine inserted into the magazine well.

    However, make sure your full magazine is plainly visible. This is accomplished usually in a magazine carrier/pouch on your belt, just like your pistol. THIS IS IMPORTANT! A magazine is an integral part of a pistol. Carrying it with ammo in it in your pocket could potentially bring a concealed weapons violation (p.c. 12025).

    If you are carrying a revolver you may carry speed loaders, bullets, etc. in your pocket without concern, 'cuz a speed loaded or moon clips are not an integral part of a revolver.



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    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    WAIT A minute are you saying that just cuz i have a semiauto i cant have loose ammo in my pocket not in a mag??

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    stuckinchico wrote:
    WAIT A minute are you saying that just cuz i have a semiauto i cant have loose ammo in my pocket not in a mag??
    You can have loose ammo in your pocket, or you can have your magazine in a belt magazine holster, or you can glue your magazine to a baseball hat and wear it. You can't have the magazine concealed.

  17. #17
    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    how bout an empty mag can it be in your pocket?

  18. #18
    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    Cougar125 wrote:
    Good advice.

    I haven't UOC here in CA yet just because everytime I want to go shoot I have to make phone calls to set up appointments to retrieve my guns, I don't have $$$ coming out my a55 to get a lawyer, and meeting up with others takes time and planning.

    I miss WA already.
    WHERE are your guns??? why dont you have them??

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    stuckinchico wrote:
    how bout an empty mag can it be in your pocket?
    I actually don't know the answer to this. Part of me wants to avoid the question altogether and ask why one would want to carry an empty mag. My guess though is that even an empty mag concealed could still be construed as being a concealed weapon.

    The case law here is People v. Hale (http://ca.findacase.com/research/wfr...0106.CA.htm/qx)

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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    stuckinchico wrote:
    how bout an empty mag can it be in your pocket?
    I actually don't know the answer to this. Part of me wants to avoid the question altogether and ask why one would want to carry an empty mag. My guess though is that even an empty mag concealed could still be construed as being a concealed weapon.

    The case law here is People v. Hale (http://ca.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.%5CCA%5CCA3%5C1974%5C19741120_0040106.CA.htm/qx)
    In Hale, the court's logic was that a concealed full magazine (mags can not be "loaded" in the legal sense) made the firearm readily useable. I don't see any reason an empty magazine would make the firearm more readily useable, so Hale should not apply.

    However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a DA were to prosecute anyhow. When it comes to persecuting gun owners, it seems they like to just throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. IMO, it's not worth being a test case - keep your mags exposed or locked up.
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    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    It this point Im ready just to carry concealed illegally Worry about it when and if it comes to it

  22. #22
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    stuckinchico wrote:
    It this point Im ready just to carry concealed illegally Worry about it when and if it comes to it
    Two bad ideas.

    1) Contemplating doing something that is illegal.

    2) Posting thatintent on a public internet board.

    I think at this point you still have some options that you should keep an open mind about.

    1) Apply for and obtaina LTC concealed before you ruin your record and make yourself ineligible (If you havent done that already.)

    2) Carry unloaded in a locked secure container.

    3) Continue UOC and adjust your attitude in anticipation of police contact and apply all the aforementioned advice in this thread.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

  23. #23
    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    We are getting a new police chief here I will be very active in insure that his is more open minded about issuing CCWS

    as far I have not ruined my chance s of obtaining it as my charges are not a disqualifying misdemeanor.

    Theres a huge difference between contemplating something and actually doing it.. huge


    I just got a digital recorder that can be locked but not unlocked with out a password so im gonna play around with it and make sure i understand its abilities and fault before i strap up

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    stuckinchico wrote:
    ...Theres a huge difference between contemplating something and actually doing it.. huge ...


    I just got a digital recorder that can be locked but not unlocked with out a password so im gonna play around with it and make sure i understand its abilities and fault before i strap up
    Yes, the differences are:

    1. Commiting the crime.

    2. Conspiracy to commit a crime (if you tell/plan/conspire with someone)

    Both have penalties. I would suggest never posting the idea that you plan on committing a crime on a public forum such as this. You have nothing to gain from it and a lot to lose.



    By the way, what is the make and model of your password protectable recorder?


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    ConditionThree wrote:

    B) You should have a digital voice recorder with sufficient recording time to remain on continuously while you are in public.

    D) You should have some pamphlet or memo detailing the legalities of open carry so you can hand them out to interested parties.



    4) Bring friendly witnesses. In addition to having a running audio recorder you should be accompanied by other open carriers or supportive friends in the event you have a police encounter. An audio recorder is a blind witness, only recording sound and does not capture things like attitude or demeanor or intent. It has been evidenced in prior events that police appear less inclined to conduct a loaded check on open carriers in groups or three or more.
    OK here is a couple of things to keep in mind.

    1. Have at least 10 pamphlets on you. People do want the information so if they ask you have one to hand them.

    2. The digital recorder should be able to record at minimum 4 hours of continuous use. I wouldn't go less than that because you don't want to risk it stopping in the middle of encounter with an LEO. Also make sure FRESH batteries are in the recorder. Also I would make sure to have either a digital video or digital camera with you both with fresh or fully charged batteries, and decent sized memory card.

    3. The not wanting to check more than three is a misnomer. I know this one from personal experience (can't go in to detail since it is still in the process of being dealt with). The police WILL check you even in larger groups. So be prepared for it to happen. KEEP YOUR COOL, don't give them any more information than you have to. The situation can spiral out of control quickly if you don't keep your cool. Also if you have a friendly witness with you make sure THEY get the camera as this happens due to the fact they can continue to record it if you have video capability. DO NOT turn it off no matter what. You could also have your friendly witness be the one with the voice recorder and an attachable mike which will make the audio area extend should you run into an encounter with an LEO.

    4. If you are stopped make sure you WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN as soon as possible to make sure you don't forget anything this is vital if you do have to make a complaint against a department or later have to defend yourself. Also make a copy of the digital recording on to a disk and put in a safe place along with the written account of what happened. If for some reason you have an encounter with an LEO that does not go well DO NOT post particulars on the forum since there is always the chance that the LEO's of that department or another department read these forums. We already know they do so might be wise to never post anything in the forums you do NOT want brought up later.

    5. Make sure someone knows where you are going and what time you expect to be back. Even if you have a friendly witness. Call them when you get home and all is safe. The having a lawyers number memorized is a good idea although a friend can also have that information just as easily.



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