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Thread: Milwaukee Police Chief's & Sheriff's statements indicate questionable states of mind

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    Wow - it sure won't be hard to beat Milwaukee's claim of qualified immunity when open carriers are illegaly detained and searched sue in federal court - these public statements by the Milwaukee Police Chief and Sheriff that they are requiring officers to violate the Fourth Amendment and seize all open carriers and their gun make such claims almost impossible to sustain.

    And how dumb - any prohibited persons or criminals caught in such unlawful "takedowns" would go scott free as all evidence would be suppressed.

    Is the Milwaukee City Attorney and Council listening to these irresponsble men wearing badges?

    ---

    http://wcco.com/wisconsinwire/22.0.h...ingWeapons.xml

    Milwaukee chief to officers: Ignore gun memo

    MADISON, Wis. (AP) Milwaukee's police chief said Tuesday he'll go on telling his officers to take down anyone with a firearm despite Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen's finding that people can carry guns openly if they do it peacefully.

    Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn said he'll continue to tell officers they can't assume people are carrying guns legally in a city that has seen nearly 200 homicides in the past two years.

    ''My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it,'' Flynn said. ''Maybe I'll end up with a protest of cowboys. In the meantime, I've got serious offenders with access to handguns. It's irresponsible to send a message to them that if they just carry it openly no one can bother them.''

    State Justice Department spokesman Kevin St. John declined to comment.

    Wisconsin is one of 29 states that allow people to openly carry a firearm without a permit. It's one of two states that ban concealed weapons.

    Flynn's comments came as gun control advocates and state lawmakers derided Van Hollen's ruling.

    ''The idea of people ... openly carrying guns strikes me as somewhere between bonkers and totally ridiculous and stupid,'' said state Rep. Josh Zepnick, D-Milwaukee.

    Van Hollen, a Republican, issued a memo Monday explaining how disorderly conduct overlaps with the constitutional right to bear arms. Van Hollen concluded citizens have a constitutional right to openly carry firearms, and disorderly conduct charges depend on the circumstances.

    OpenCarry.org, a gun advocacy Web site, issued a statement saying the finding was ''spot on.'' The Wisconsin Sheriffs and Deputy Sheriffs Association said the memo clearly finds people can bear arms in an orderly manner.

    But Oregon, Wis., Police Chief Doug Pettit said the memo doesn't provide much direction for police, who already know open carry is legal in Wisconsin and disorderly conduct is a case-by-case judgment call.

    ''I don't know if the memo clarifies anything, other than it's not an automatic disorderly conduct charge,'' Pettit said. ''Clearly, I think law enforcement, like anything else, will have to use their discretion.''

    Dane County District Attorney Brian Blanchard said open carry cases have rarely come up, but he'd want to know why someone has chosen to carry a gun before making a charging decision.

    ''Police will be quick to ask you, 'Why do you have a gun with you? Is somebody stalking you?' Those are going to be fair inquiries,'' he said. ''We'd be particularly concerned if someone was openly possessing a gun in the context of an ongoing dispute or feud.''

    Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke said the memo just muddies things. Police still aren't clear on what might constitute disorderly conduct, he said.

    ''How we approach a person with a gun, I can tell you right now, isn't going to change. As far as a law enforcement person is concerned, you just don't walk up to a person with a gun and say 'excuse me, sir,''' Clarke said. ''On the ground, give up. Get that gun under control and then we'll figure out what we got here.''

    Gov. Jim Doyle, a former attorney general, believes local communities should be allowed to create their own gun ordinances, spokesman Lee Sensenbrenner said. A 1995 law bars municipalities from enacting stiffer ordinances than state statutes, but carrying a rifle during hunting season is different from walking around Milwaukee with a gun on your hip, Sensenbrenner said.

    Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said Van Hollen's memo underscores the nation's weak gun laws. The Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort, a statewide organization dedicated to ending gun violence, estimates guns kill about 450 people in the state each year.

    ''A lot of people who get guns and carry guns don't always understand the responsibility and risk that goes with gun ownership,'' Helmke said. ''People get drunk, people get angry, people make mistakes. More guns generally mean more violence.''

    State Rep. Leon Young, D-Milwaukee, a former police officer, said he was shocked by Van Hollen's memo. He said he planned to look into drafting legislation to ban open carry.

    ''It's just a bad idea. We've just had too many incidents of gun violence,'' Young said.

    Flynn, Milwaukee's police chief, said the opinion was clearly drafted in the safety of the Justice Department's offices, not on Milwaukee's streets.

    ''From an officer's safety point of view and a public point of view,'' he said, ''we're not going to start with the assumption that someone displaying a handgun is doing it lawfully.''




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    Mike wrote:
    ''From an officer's safety point of view and a public point of view,'' he said, ''we're not going to start with the assumption that someone displaying a handgun is doing it lawfully.''
    Right, because they have such a huge problem with the other 43 states...

    RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    This guy is just BEGGING for a color-of-law civil rights lawsuit.

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    "From an officer's safety point of view and a public point of view,'' he said, ''we're not going to start with the assumption that someone displaying a handgun is doing it lawfully.''

    What the hell happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

    Let's see, Doyle wants to let everyone out of jail early, the DA office in Milwaukee declines to prosecute the girlfriend of the guy that tried to kill the MPD officer on 36th& Scott for firing a shotgun and hitting a school bus, but they will violate the 4th amendment of every law abiding open carrier in Milwaukee? WTF?

    Seem like we'll have to drag Milwaukee along kicking and screaming.....





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    If that piece of **** cared at all about officer safety, he wouldn't have his men and women accosting peaceable armed individuals illegally.

    Even if an officer "following orders" or a innocent citizen gets killed because of Flynn's or Clarkes' idiocy, they still won't get it. I say we organize a cookout now, and DARE these people to send out our family members, friends , and neighbors (rank and file officers) to put us in the dirt and disarm us.

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    Gee I guess us Arizona cops are just so much smarter than those Wisconson and Milwaukee cps. Or maybe we're just that much braver and trust our citizens.

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    I thought you were joking at first, Mike, because your link does not lead to the story you copied, but sure enough, I found it posted elsewhere on the web.

    This is absolutely insane. Ed Flynn says plainly that he will ignore the law, and order his officers to do so. Open carriers are guilty until proven innocent in his eyes.

    Absolutely insane. If this were for any other of the Bill of Rights, you can bet the ACLU would be all over it. Instead, since they're anti-gun, they'll keep silent.

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    Mr. Greg wrote:
    I thought you were joking at first, Mike, because your link does not lead to the story you copied, but sure enough, I found it posted elsewhere on the web.
    Sorry, long day, URL corrected.

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    Anyone up for reserving a picnic area at a milwaukee County park somewhere?

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    Mike wrote:
    Anyone up for reserving a picnic area at a milwaukee County park somewhere?
    I'm trying! Look at the picnic thread.

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    That man needs to be fired! He should be walking the streets to the unemployment office tomorrow morning.
    A. Gold

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    I live in Milwaukee, a few blocks from the Menards where Jesus was arrested and close to where Krause was arrested. I plan on carrying my G17 as soon as I figure out what a decent holster is for it. Looks like I'll be getting tackled shortly.

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    Flynn does not uphold the laws or the constitution. He should rot.

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    joshdr wrote:
    I live in Milwaukee, a few blocks from the Menards where Jesus was arrested and close to where Krause was arrested. I plan on carrying my G17 as soon as I figure out what a decent holster is for it. Looks like I'll be getting tackled shortly.
    Well, make sure you have some witnesses and video coverage, and perhaps forget to carry ID that day (sterile carry) and remain silent when and if seized

    From the news reports, outside of Milwaukee,I don't think there will be much problem OCing but you all gotta stay clear of those pesky 1,000 ft. school zones and keep the guns unloaded and in trunks when in vehicles - you all have many more obstacles than most states but the momentum is in the right direction.

    If you wanno host an OCmeet up somewhere, be it a park or backyard BBQ, feel free to post here.

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    Ed Flynn says to Johnny Stiletto: "Prepare for war!"
    Johnny Stiletto says to Ed Flynn: "Prepare for revolution!"

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    This is absolutely insane. Ed Flynn says plainly that he will ignore the law, and order his officers to do so. Open carriers are guilty until proven innocent in his eyes.

    Absolutely insane. If this were for any other of the Bill of Rights, you can bet the ACLU would be all over it. Instead, since they're anti-gun, they'll keep silent.

    Who in the WORLD does Ed Flynn think he is? God? He doesn't make law. UN-believable. Even non-gun-supporters should be outraged by his statements. He's a ROGUE Police Chief ignorning the state and US constitution.

    Cookout my ass. I say we open-carry protest RIGHT in front of his office. I know we can't go in the building, but outside is fair game? Can anyone confirm.

    I can GUARANTEE we will have television reporters camera's rolling WAITING for us. The reporter I interviewed with yesterday gave me his cell number and told me to call him ANYTIME and specifically mentioned that if I know of people getting harrassed by police to call him.


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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    I say we open-carry protest RIGHT in front of his office. I know we can't go in the building, but outside is fair game? Can anyone confirm.
    Great idea! Can you figure out if Milwaukee requires a permit to protest? Often if you have over x number of people they want you to have apermit. Also, fugure out if you can get to the localition without running afoul of a school zone.

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    I find it quite comical that this schitt-storm is being blamed on A.G van Hollen.

    Open carry has been a legal and protected right in the state of Wisconsin since before it evenbecame a state!

    the A.G. finally warns the several law enforcement communties throughout the state to lay off and quit arresting and charging people with BS charges for legally carrying a gun, andsome police chiefs freak out!

    I donot know about you guys, but I have been saving all the articles about this for future use.




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    joshdr wrote:
    I live in Milwaukee, a few blocks from the Menard's where Jesus was arrested and close to where Krause was arrested. I plan on carrying my G17 as soon as I figure out what a decent holster is for it. Looks like I'll be getting tackled shortly.
    Get a "serpa" holster you'll like it!


    OC smart - friendly witnesses are a must, recording device (check state laws), tucked in shirt or drop leg holster (avoiding concealed firearmreal of false arrests), know where you are (avoid school zones), know your laws and case laws and be able to converse about them (make a brochure too). Know your 4th A. rights too by not consenting to searches and asking if you are free to leave etc...(get this on tape)

    Good luck and God speed!



    artwork by oleg volk:

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    As a too long resident of this state where sheeple prevail, this was an unexpected pleasure, considering Bald Blago is the governor. Anti-gun nut jim doyle has vetoed concealed carry legislation twice and no one ever expected any progress on gun rights until he was defeated or indicted.
    Even the taxpig doyle, was quoted as saying, "Wisconsin doesn't need concealed carry, just carry it on your hip." Yeah right, if you want a disorderly conduct -while armed on your record.
    The whole purpose of this announcement was to force the "doylet" to sign some concealed carry legislation. In the wake of the Heller decision and the Wisconsin constitution which also gives us firearms rights, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ordered Diamond Jim Doyle to get with the legislature and pass a concealed carry program. Many Wisconsin DA's are quietly dismissing CCW cases because they are unconstitutional and have lead to lawsuits.
    Sheriff Clarke is a conservative and while he suports concealed carry, he is concerned about the safety of his deputies.
    Ed Flynn seems to have made some right moves in crimefighting but he is showing that he is a "suit" and a political police officer. I understand he was the chief in Alexandria, VA when the terrorist swine crashed into the pentagon, but his last position was as a police chief in Massassachusetts, so that may explain his ignorant atitude towards gun rights and the constitution.


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    Mike wrote:
    joshdr wrote:
    I live in Milwaukee, a few blocks from the Menards where Jesus was arrested and close to where Krause was arrested. I plan on carrying my G17 as soon as I figure out what a decent holster is for it. Looks like I'll be getting tackled shortly.
    Well, make sure you have some witnesses and video coverage, and perhaps forget to carry ID that day (sterile carry) and remain silent when and if seized

    From the news reports, outside of Milwaukee,I don't think there will be much problem OCing but you all gotta stay clear of those pesky 1,000 ft. school zones and keep the guns unloaded and in trunks when in vehicles - you all have many more obstacles than most states but the momentum is in the right direction.

    If you wanno host an OCmeet up somewhere, be it a park or backyard BBQ, feel free to post here.
    I live within 1000 feet of a school, so no open carrying off my property. Also I have a pickup truck, so I'm not sure if its legal to keep the gun in the bed of my truck. I'm also curious about SUV's and station wagons, can I just keep it in the back?

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    joshdr wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    joshdr wrote:
    I live in Milwaukee, a few blocks from the Menards where Jesus was arrested and close to where Krause was arrested. I plan on carrying my G17 as soon as I figure out what a decent holster is for it. Looks like I'll be getting tackled shortly.
    Well, make sure you have some witnesses and video coverage, and perhaps forget to carry ID that day (sterile carry) and remain silent when and if seized

    From the news reports, outside of Milwaukee,I don't think there will be much problem OCing but you all gotta stay clear of those pesky 1,000 ft. school zones and keep the guns unloaded and in trunks when in vehicles - you all have many more obstacles than most states but the momentum is in the right direction.

    If you wanno host an OCmeet up somewhere, be it a park or backyard BBQ, feel free to post here.
    I live within 1000 feet of a school, so no open carrying off my property. Also I have a pickup truck, so I'm not sure if its legal to keep the gun in the bed of my truck. I'm also curious about SUV's and station wagons, can I just keep it in the back?
    You raise great points - i do not know the answer on this - anyone with case law on the WI school zone and car carry ban as applied to these facts?

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    The school zone law does not apply on private property, but unless you know if the sidewalks in your neighborhood are publicly or privately owned, I would be careful. I also live in a school zone, but I own my sidewalk, as do my neighbors, making a stroll down the sidewalk legal for me.

    As far as I can tell THERE IS NO CASELAW ON WHETHER OR NOT THE EASEMENT FOR PUBLIC USE OF LAND ON A PRIVATELY-OWNED SIDEWALK MAKES IT LEGALLY "PUBLIC PROPERTY," however. So, exercise caution.

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    IANAL, these are just the facts as I find them.


    Carry within 1000 ft of a school zone on PRIVATE property is legal. That's 1000 ft from the school property, not the school. Carry inside the 1000 ft zone is legal, but must be unloaded and encased. Now State Statute says "unless you have a permit." Several of us here have tried to get such a permit, it would appear that no such permit can/is issued. (Sounds a lot like Heller, but then I thinking out loud)

    As for auto, statute dictates "unloaded and encased when in/on a vehicle." Some LEO will tell you NOT in the passenger compartment, but there is NO STATUTE I can find stating that (otherwise, carrying [unloaded and cased] on motor cycle and ATV would be illegal).

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    I was wondering about the motorcycle issue as well, In the summer a motorcycle is my main mode of transportation. Perhaps a motorcycle doesnt have a passenger compartment, so could I open carry on the bike? Only other option is to have it encased in my backpack.

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    Mike wrote:
    Wow - it sure won't be hard to beat Milwaukee's claim of qualified immunity when open carriers are illegaly detained and searched sue in federal court - these public statements by the Milwaukee Police Chief and Sheriff that they are requiring officers to violate the Fourth Amendment and seize all open carriers and their gun make such claims almost impossible to sustain.

    And how dumb - any prohibited persons or criminals caught in such unlawful "takedowns" would go scott free as all evidence would be suppressed.

    Is the Milwaukee City Attorney and Council listening to these irresponsble men wearing badges?

    ---

    http://wcco.com/wisconsinwire/22.0.h...ingWeapons.xml

    Milwaukee chief to officers: Ignore gun memo

    MADISON, Wis. (AP) Milwaukee's police chief said Tuesday he'll go on telling his officers to take down anyone with a firearm despite Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen's finding that people can carry guns openly if they do it peacefully.

    Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn said he'll continue to tell officers they can't assume people are carrying guns legally in a city that has seen nearly 200 homicides in the past two years.

    ''My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it,'' Flynn said. ''Maybe I'll end up with a protest of cowboys. In the meantime, I've got serious offenders with access to handguns. It's irresponsible to send a message to them that if they just carry it openly no one can bother them.''

    State Justice Department spokesman Kevin St. John declined to comment.

    Wisconsin is one of 29 states that allow people to openly carry a firearm without a permit. It's one of two states that ban concealed weapons.

    Flynn's comments came as gun control advocates and state lawmakers derided Van Hollen's ruling.

    ''The idea of people ... openly carrying guns strikes me as somewhere between bonkers and totally ridiculous and stupid,'' said state Rep. Josh Zepnick, D-Milwaukee.

    Van Hollen, a Republican, issued a memo Monday explaining how disorderly conduct overlaps with the constitutional right to bear arms. Van Hollen concluded citizens have a constitutional right to openly carry firearms, and disorderly conduct charges depend on the circumstances.

    OpenCarry.org, a gun advocacy Web site, issued a statement saying the finding was ''spot on.'' The Wisconsin Sheriffs and Deputy Sheriffs Association said the memo clearly finds people can bear arms in an orderly manner.

    But Oregon, Wis., Police Chief Doug Pettit said the memo doesn't provide much direction for police, who already know open carry is legal in Wisconsin and disorderly conduct is a case-by-case judgment call.

    ''I don't know if the memo clarifies anything, other than it's not an automatic disorderly conduct charge,'' Pettit said. ''Clearly, I think law enforcement, like anything else, will have to use their discretion.''

    Dane County District Attorney Brian Blanchard said open carry cases have rarely come up, but he'd want to know why someone has chosen to carry a gun before making a charging decision.

    ''Police will be quick to ask you, 'Why do you have a gun with you? Is somebody stalking you?' Those are going to be fair inquiries,'' he said. ''We'd be particularly concerned if someone was openly possessing a gun in the context of an ongoing dispute or feud.''

    Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke said the memo just muddies things. Police still aren't clear on what might constitute disorderly conduct, he said.

    ''How we approach a person with a gun, I can tell you right now, isn't going to change. As far as a law enforcement person is concerned, you just don't walk up to a person with a gun and say 'excuse me, sir,''' Clarke said. ''On the ground, give up. Get that gun under control and then we'll figure out what we got here.''

    Gov. Jim Doyle, a former attorney general, believes local communities should be allowed to create their own gun ordinances, spokesman Lee Sensenbrenner said. A 1995 law bars municipalities from enacting stiffer ordinances than state statutes, but carrying a rifle during hunting season is different from walking around Milwaukee with a gun on your hip, Sensenbrenner said.

    Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said Van Hollen's memo underscores the nation's weak gun laws. The Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort, a statewide organization dedicated to ending gun violence, estimates guns kill about 450 people in the state each year.

    ''A lot of people who get guns and carry guns don't always understand the responsibility and risk that goes with gun ownership,'' Helmke said. ''People get drunk, people get angry, people make mistakes. More guns generally mean more violence.''

    State Rep. Leon Young, D-Milwaukee, a former police officer, said he was shocked by Van Hollen's memo. He said he planned to look into drafting legislation to ban open carry.

    ''It's just a bad idea. We've just had too many incidents of gun violence,'' Young said.

    Flynn, Milwaukee's police chief, said the opinion was clearly drafted in the safety of the Justice Department's offices, not on Milwaukee's streets.

    ''From an officer's safety point of view and a public point of view,'' he said, ''we're not going to start with the assumption that someone displaying a handgun is doing it lawfully.''


    All I can say is the OCers in Wisconsin better start getting organized if the Milwaukee police Chief is disregarding the law and you have some AH ex LEO in the house of Reps, trying to get OC outlawed.

    Strength in numbers. MORE FEDERAL LAW SUITS if this harassment continues. Man I can't believe it. We have some problems in Michigan, but nothing like our neighbor to the west. Perhaps all that water between us has something to do with it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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