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Thread: For the second time, I'm OC has deterred a robbery.

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    I debated whether to put this under true tales of self defense or why open carry. I chose this section because there was no self defense involved, rather an bit of anecdotal evidence that bolsters the argument we have been making that OC prevents crime.

    I pulled in to a gas station with its attendant mini-mart to top off the tank. As I finished filling my tank I became aware of an older Oldsmobile with three thug looking cats pulling in- not to a pump, nor right up to the mini mart, but kind of out of sight. The front seat passenger- a kid in his early 20's with the obligatory baggy clothing half way down his but gets out- looking really shifty and nervous. Thinking this was strange I positioned myself to get a better look and I immediately switched to "orange" as something didn't seem right. I moved closer to a brick pillar in order to both get a closer look at the car as well as to get a better tactical position (i.e. cover). The driver of the car must have spied my openly carried sidearm because he quickly called out to his associate. The first thug turned around, ran quickly back to his car slammed the door and they made great haste out of the service station. As they went by the passenger had a :what: look on his face when he saw my holstered CZ- the look was priceless.

    My wife piped up and said, "Did what I think just happen, really happen? Did you just scare some would-be robbers away by OCing?"

    "Sure looks like it." was the only answer I could muster as I watched their car disappear into the distance. Just like that the wife appreciates more completely the value of OC.

    My hands were shaking and nothing really went down so I can totally understand the part about being only half as accurate in a gunfight as you are at the range. I don't doubt for a minute that had I not been OCing something would have indeed gone down.

    Wish I had had the presence of mind to take down the license plate, and to be honest I don't remember what color the olds was- I think it was light tan or maybe white. I guess I really have to brush up on my skills at being a good witness.

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    Great story!

    We will have to start a new statistic, "defensive gun non-uses."

    Was junior criminal's pants a little baggier as he was getting back in the car?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Dahwg wrote:
    ...bit of anecdotal evidence that bolsters the argument we have been making that OC prevents crime.

    I pulled in to a gas station with its attendant mini-mart to top off the tank. As I finished filling my tank I became aware of an older Oldsmobile with three thug looking cats pulling in- not to a pump, nor right up to the mini mart, but kind of out of sight. The front seat passenger- a kid in his early 20's with the obligatory baggy clothing half way down his but gets out- looking really shifty and nervous. Thinking this was strange I positioned myself to get a better look and I immediately switched to "orange" as something didn't seem right. I moved closer to a brick pillar in order to both get a closer look at the car as well as to get a better tactical position (i.e. cover). The driver of the car must have spied my openly carried sidearm because he quickly called out to his associate. The first thug turned around, ran quickly back to his car slammed the door and they made great haste out of the service station. As they went by the passenger had a :what: look on his face when he saw my holstered CZ- the look was priceless.

    My wife piped up and said, "Did what I think just happen, really happen? Did you just scare some would-be robbers away by OCing?"

    "Sure looks like it." was the only answer I could muster as I watched their car disappear into the distance. Just like that the wife appreciates more completely the value of OC.

    My hands were shaking and nothing really went down so I can totally understand the part about being only half as accurate in a gunfight as you are at the range. I don't doubt for a minute that had I not been OCing something would have indeed gone down.

    Wish I had had the presence of mind to take down the license plate, and to be honest I don't remember what color the olds was- I think it was light tan or maybe white. I guess I really have to brush up on my skills at being a good witness.
    A few questions:

    1. The Olds pulled up to the mini-mart but "kind of out of sight." Huh?

    2. Only one guy, front passenger got out of the car?

    3. What did passenger do to look "really shifty and nervous" when he was out of the car?

    4. What was the distance between you and the Olds?

    5. You were behind "cover"for part of the event.How did the driver see your gun--before you got to "cover?" Or after?

    6. When the Olds went by you, what was the distance between you and the Olds?

    7. Where you behind cover as the Olds left in "great haste?" If yes, how did the passenger see your holstered CZ? If you were not behind cover, why not?




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    HankT wrote:
    [quote]Dahwg wrote:
    ...¬*bit of anecdotal evidence that bolsters the argument we have been making that OC prevents crime.

    I pulled in to a gas station with its attendant mini-mart to top off the tank. As I finished filling my tank I became aware of an older Oldsmobile with three thug looking cats pulling in- not to a pump, nor right up to the mini mart, but kind of out of sight. The front seat passenger- a kid in his early 20's with the obligatory baggy clothing half way down his but gets out- looking really shifty and nervous. Thinking this was strange I positioned myself to get a better look and I immediately switched to "orange" as something didn't seem right. I moved closer to a brick pillar in order to both get a closer look at the car as well as to get a better tactical position (i.e. cover). The driver of the car must have spied my openly carried sidearm because he quickly called out to his associate. The first thug turned around, ran quickly back to his car slammed the door and they made great haste out of the service station. As they went by the passenger had a :what: look on his face when he saw my holstered CZ- the look was priceless.

    My wife piped up and said, "Did what I think just happen, really happen? Did you just scare some would-be robbers away by OCing?"

    "Sure looks like it." was the only answer I could muster as I watched their car disappear into the distance. Just like that the wife appreciates more completely the value of OC.

    My hands were shaking and nothing really went down so I can totally understand the part about being only half as accurate in a gunfight as you are at the range. I don't doubt for a minute that had I not been OCing something would have indeed gone down.

    Wish I had had the presence of mind to take down the license plate, and to be honest I don't remember what color the olds was- I think it was light tan or maybe white. I guess I really have to brush up on my skills at being a good witness.
    A few questions:

    1.¬* The Olds pulled up to the mini-mart but "kind of out of sight." Huh?
    Yes the mini mart is the type that basically is a store/cashier that is in an "island type" arrangement where the pumps are on either side of the small store. Three sets in the front part (where I was) and six on the back side. Most people that go in to shop from the mini-mart pull up to the curb directly adjacent to the mart, if you're getting gas, you obviously pull up to the pumps, these guys did neither- they pulled up short of the pumps that are in the front of the mart/cash register out of view of the actual store (in my estimation).

    2. Only one guy, front passenger got out of the car?
    Yes only the front passenger got out, the back neither the back passenger nor the driver got out.

    3. What did passenger do to look "really shifty and nervous" when he was out of the car?
    He was hesitant about getting out- looked around a lot- looked back at the cats in the car seemed halting- when he got out he did the whole- I gotta hold my crotch- or rather gotta hold what's hanging in my crotch thing.

    4. What was the distance between you and the Olds?
    I'm not the greatest judge of distances- but figure about two car widths from the other side of the pumps plus - I was on the third set and they were on the other side- away from the first set.

    5.¬* You were behind "cover"¬*for part of the event.¬*How did the driver see your gun--before you got to "cover?" Or after?
    I was taking cover from the guy that was out- my SA was not the greatest because in scoping him out I exposed myself to his buddies. Not smart I know.

    6. When the Olds went by you, what was the distance between you and the Olds?
    They had to go from the first set of pumps past me on the third set- again, I'm not the best judge of distance, but At that point, since they're veering toward the entrance/exit on the other side of the service station, but I'd say it was about three car widths plus the distance of the pumps.

    7. Where you behind cover as the Olds left in "great haste?"¬* If yes, how did the passenger see your holstered CZ?¬* If you were not behind cover,¬* why not?
    No I really wasn't behind cover at that point. Remember, I was taking cover from the guy that got out- not his friends in the car, so when he turned around and ran to his car I stood there frozen- not really knowing what to do. I realize my SA was not good- I was so stunned at what I had just seen, that I kind of watched them drive away- leaving myself wide open for a whatever they may have tried to do. I've actually been trying to reconstruct it with my wife because I left myself very vulnerable several times. Not good at all. As much as I try rehearse these scenarios in my mind- I believe I failed in this case my mind was racing- and I really didn't act in the way I had practiced in my mind. I got lucky the thugs did not get aggressive with me.


    ¬*

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Dahwg, I think the incident you (and your wife) were involved in is a good learning opportunity. For you and the rest of us who like and use scenarios.

    Thank you for sharing the details.

    I think there is uncertainty about what the three thugateers were really up to. But the incident is instructive no matter what their intentions were. If they were going to rob the joint, there is a high probability of the right front passenger havinga firearm.

    My thoughts about being in the situation that you described, me with a gun onone hip and an extra mag on the other, with my wife in the car, within 30 or 40 feet from some fellows Ideduced were probably BGs.... I would calmlyandunhesitatingly depart.

    I would immediately flee.

    I would then call 911 to report what I'd seen.

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    You did great.

    You observed the situation, and stood your ground and itended in what I see as a botched robbery. Especially since the first BG stopped half-way, and ran back to the car and then took off AFTER the warning from his comrade.

    Now had my wife and kids been in the car,I might have done things different.

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    HankT wrote: snip
    I would immediately flee.

    I would then call 911 to report what I'd seen.
    Of courseyou would, you are in Jorsie.
    You can't legally carry there, iirc
    What other options would you have?

    HankT is thinking of theinnocent bystanders that might get injured sincehe and the BG legally couldn't carry HP's, iirc.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    I did have my wife and one of my kids with me. The thing is that everything went down so fast that I really didn't have time to process the idea of flight or calling 911.

    • I saw the strange behavior
      I switched from yellow to orange.
      BG changes his mind and suddenly gets back in car
      They drive off


    If I had to put a time frame to that, I'd say about 10 seconds for the whole thing to take place. I've probably spent more time going over it in my head after the fact than they did in planning their heist beforehand.

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    I think you did very well although i would stress that you practice under high stress in order to control the shaking hands. best way to do this is to really get your heart rate up then practice drawing, removing safety, and reloading you dot even have to fire any rounds. good example is how scout snipers train they run then they stop take a breath take one shot then 10 push ups followed by another shot then 10 sit ups. the idea is for you to get your endorphins flowing (theycause your hands to shake) and keep them flowing so that every time you shoot you have to try and calm your self in order to accurately judge how to approach the situation (soot or no shoot). this same principle can be applied to drawing, finding cover, reloading things that you can do no problem but when the blood starts pumping you really have to take a breath and assess the situation. i would suggest that we all try to make this apart of our training so that we all can make the right decisions when we need to.



    all in all i think you did out standing and im glad that that is one less criminal that will be thinking about robing a store. keep up the good work.
    Ad maiorem Dei gloriam Ducimus Doctrinas bello aptare n umbra, igitur, pugnabimus Citius, altius, fortius Pro patria Semper paratus Semper fidelis. Sic Vis Pacem Para Bellum

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    1st guy is gonna recon (case) the target. If he enters... the rest will follow... at once or intervals. He saw your weapon... possibly made you for a LEO. Whatever... you posed a threat they were not prepared to risk.

    That said... once they 'made you' you should have sought some sort of available cover w/o taking a threatening stance. THAT act will make you a target to nervous gang-bangers of unknown 'sobriety' or mentality.

    This IS NOT 'New Jersey'... 'Whole 'nuther culture goin' on here in the SW. We're not conditioned to run away.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    1st guy is gonna recon (case) the target. If he enters... the rest will follow... at once or intervals. He saw your weapon... possibly made you for a LEO. Whatever... you posed a threat they were not prepared to risk.

    That said... once they 'made you' you should have sought some sort of available cover w/o taking a threatening stance. THAT act will make you a target to nervous gang-bangers of unknown 'sobriety' or mentality.

    This IS NOT 'New Jersey'... 'Whole 'nuther culture goin' on here in the SW. We're not conditioned to run away.
    Which is also why Louisiana has the "No Duty to Retreat Law".

    We cannot be prosecuted for standing our ground and not running away.



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    Dustin wrote:
    Which is also why Louisiana has the "No Duty to Retreat Law".

    We cannot be prosecuted for standing our ground and not running away.

    No duty to retreat is a concepttied to threat of or use of deadly force in a self-defense situation. It is not pertinent in the instant case.

    It certainly does not mean Obligation to stick around and become a wannabe cop with my wife as my unarmedpartner.



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    I certainly didn't get the impression that he was "sticking around". The event happened in a relatively short time, start to finish, from my understanding of it. I don't see how that can be construed as becoming "a wannabe cop". Unless it's being suggested that the moment we all see something unusual we promptly get in our vehicle as fast as we can and speed away (or just turn and start sprinting the opposite direction, if you don't have your vehicle handy), just in case?

    Sounds to me like the presence of OC might have deterred a crime, and that the OP acted in a reasonable manner. Sees something odd, looks to determine what is going on, situation resolved itself, end of story.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    You are so dang lucky they didn't shoot you, take your gun and use it to rob the mini mart :barf:. Still no barf emoticon.

    Great story!
    Here... or

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    The reaction was instinct. I've had deer walk towards me stamping their foot and snorting, standing broadside even at times. The deer are checking me out trying to determine if I am a threat or not. This is puffery, prey standing up and staring at a potential predator, trying to show that they are fit, then deciding to run off afterwards. Why not the deer just wind me and run off and not stop to look back?

    I once stood down some thugs. I had a dog sure yes, but he wasn't barking at them or anything. I refused to run away. Why? I dunno. Instincts. Face the predator, show it you are not afraid, you are not weak, you are not going to be a victim. No words were exchanged in my encounter, only body language. I reached under my jacket as if I was wearing a shoulder rig. At this point the thugs started backing away, and they just turned and left. Keep in mind most of these types are coward asses, you show balls to them and they sweat. If one is keen enough in reading body language and going with gut feelings, you can sort the pansy ones from the seriously violent ones.

    My learning is from dealing with bullies from age 4 and on. That was alot of school years learning to read body language and learning avoidance methods. Then I was on the streets in college learning more.Someone high up in school security told me I should be teaching the "students stay safe" class LOL, but I doubt all the other students would want to wear camo and have a funny looking dog! However my situational awareness and body language reading skills would have been valuable to pass on, however at the time, they just came naturally and I wasn't sure I could teach that. EvenI didn't know every move I made, so much of it "just happened". I also have a "look" I am told is plain scary when I give it LOL.



    Nowadays I'd say I am a bit rusty, but I will find myself keying into some people at times and keeping my eyes on them( and listening). Haven't seen the true thugs types in a while though, I just don't go to places where they hang out or might be around.I also scan around me a lot and don't hug edges when there's an opening coming up. I then look down said openings. YesI do this outside walking around the property too, one time I almost walked into a sick and growling raccoon in broad daylight. I want to avoid such. Have some distance, size up the situation, if it's not running away or it's actually advancing, shoot it. This does not apply to the deer though. I know what this or that species of animal's normal behaviors are. Now a buck during the rut advancing and showing aggressive stances, and yelling and/or banging a stick doesn't make it go away, then I'm having some venison. A deer on full run towards me , head down and ears back, is also aggressive. I'd expect bluffing behavior like this in spring with does , to protect fawns' hiding places. Whitetail does are not as aggressive as moose cows though!



    Know your "critters"!

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    HankT wrote:
    Dahwg, I think the incident you (and your wife) were involved in is a good learning opportunity. For you and the rest of us who like and use scenarios.

    Thank you for sharing the details.

    I think there is uncertainty about what the three thugateers were really up to. But the incident is instructive no matter what their intentions were. If they were going to rob the joint, there is a high probability of the right front passenger havinga firearm.

    My thoughts about being in the situation that you described, me with a gun onone hip and an extra mag on the other, with my wife in the car, within 30 or 40 feet from some fellows Ideduced were probably BGs.... I would calmlyandunhesitatingly depart.

    I would immediately flee.

    I would then call 911 to report what I'd seen.

    Of course you would HankT. I'd expect nothing more from you.


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    Dawg, what part of Tucson was this? Use P.M. if you prefer. Thanks!

    P.S. Although HankT's option is perfectly valid, it sounds like you did just fine. There is probably no absolute answer here.

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    Northwest Tucson. Not exactly the area you'd expect that something like this would happen. This just goes to show that you never know when you may need to be armed.

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    Alternative viewpoint:

    Driver is a little glassy eyed, (who knows on what), passenger gets out to grab
    some smokes. (Barney Frank in the back explains the loose pants.)
    Driver sees the shifty crook crouching by the wall with a gun, potheads flea for
    thier lives.

    But, you definately need to work on the situational awareness after the fact.
    Remember after the encounter, awareness will also be needed to keep from
    being made into the gun toting bad guy. Just hope in your rattled state you
    didn't use regular grade gas in the getaway car.

    -1 for leaving the wife in danger like that...... At least have the forthought
    to have her duck down next time, and get ready to pass the extra mags.
    To call atention to yourselves when you warn her, or let her fend for herself,
    a tuff call most days.


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    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    At least have the¬* forthought
    to have her duck down next time, and get ready to pass the extra mags.
    "Here, I'll give you the head of this hammer, and I'll keep the shaft. That way we'll both be armed."

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    Can a mod add the word "convinced" to the title of this post (between I'm and OC)- that was what I was going for. I cringe each time I read that big typo.

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    Dahwg wrote:
    Can a mod add the word "convinced" to the title of this post (between I'm and OC)- that was what I was going for.
    That reminds me. If you were convinced that

    those 3 guys in the Olds were bad guys...

    that they were just about to rob a gas station mart...

    and that they were armed....

    and you had a good description of at least one of the thugs....

    and a decent description of the car...

    and you had a co-witness....

    then I wonder why you didn't call the police to report what you had seen.

    Did you report it to the police? If not, why not? Those thugs were dangerous!

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    HankT wrote:
    Dahwg wrote:
    Can a mod add the word "convinced" to the title of this post (between I'm and OC)- that was what I was going for.
    That reminds me. If you were convinced that

    those 3 guys in the Olds were bad guys...

    that they were just about to rob a gas station mart...

    and that they were armed....

    and you had a good description of at least one of the thugs....

    and a decent description of the car...

    and you had a co-witness....

    then I wonder why you didn't call the police to report what you had seen.

    Did you report it to the police? If not, why not? Those thugs were dangerous!
    They didn't commit any crime. I can tell the cops my suspicion, but what right would they have to affect an arrest?It is the same as the MWAG calls that are generated by the sheeple at the sight of one of us OCing.

    The thugswere dangerous before, they were dangerous afterward, but they still had 4th amendment rights. No lawhad been broken, so LEO intervention would have been inappropriate IMO.

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    Armed4Life wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Dahwg, I think the incident you (and your wife) were involved in is a good learning opportunity. For you and the rest of us who like and use scenarios.

    Thank you for sharing the details.

    I think there is uncertainty about what the three thugateers were really up to. But the incident is instructive no matter what their intentions were. If they were going to rob the joint, there is a high probability of the right front passenger havinga firearm.

    My thoughts about being in the situation that you described, me with a gun onone hip and an extra mag on the other, with my wife in the car, within 30 or 40 feet from some fellows Ideduced were probably BGs.... I would calmlyandunhesitatingly depart.

    I would immediately flee.

    I would then call 911 to report what I'd seen.

    Of course you would HankT. I'd expect nothing more from you.


    What would you do in the situation that Dahwg described, Armed4Life?

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    I would have gotten in the back seat, curled up in the fetal position (rocking forward and backward rapidly) until they left. After all, if you don't resist or get involved, they might not hurt you....right?

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