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Thread: what a tasteless act

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    posted at,

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=6213674

    was that you sgt. jensen?

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    No, my forklift is an Allis-Chalmers, not a Hyster. This is a rookie sign, my sign is LED, and contains more messages.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Tell all the Obese People that their fork will kill them too:what:



    TJ

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    Folks, we've got a full blown troll on the board. Really, the best bet is to totally ignore him until he gets board and goes away.

    The situation out of Santaquin is quite tragic. And it is possible to Monday morning quarterback the actions of the police. But at the end of the day it looks like a suicidal man threatened not only himself but also family members with a gun. Family calls cops-- man with gun refuses to comply to lawful orders--man with gun threatens cops--man with gun ends up dead via suicide-by-cop.

    The whole thing has nothing to do with open carry, is grossly off topic on this forum, and we need to stop feeding the trolls.

    If exchanging barbs with trolls is fun, exchange email addresses and do it privately, please. It is clear that such endeavors here can quickly turn to the kind of stuff that makes the entire gun owning community look really bad.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    On the contrary, Charles... I believe that buncopanies posting of this sign is well with the scope of this websites rules regarding topic, andI am glad he posted it. My wife sawthe signyesterday, buthad not toldme about it.


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html
    2) Since we are a site dedicated to open carry,firearms and gun rights, all posts should relate substantially to one of these topics, even if your comments pertain mainly to freedom andliberty.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    So why hasn't anyone shot that sign yet?

    (kidding)

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    Jim675 wrote:
    So why hasn't anyone shot that sign yet?(kidding)
    HA! Although tempting, probably not the best way to gain the love from the Anti's who just need a reason.. But you get a dancing banana for the effort! I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact the Police showed up to save this mans life. Go figure.


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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact the Police showed up to save this mans life. Go figure.
    I think the police showed up to protect innocent bystanders--including the guy's family--from an unstable person with a gun who had made overt threats of violence.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    On the contrary, Charles... I believe that buncopanies posting of this sign is well with the scope of this websites rules regarding topic, andI am glad he posted it. My wife sawthe signyesterday, buthad not toldme about it.


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html
    2) Since we are a site dedicated to open carry,firearms and gun rights, all posts should relate substantially to one of these topics, even if your comments pertain mainly to freedom andliberty.
    I believe that the PURPOSE of buncopanies posting was classic troll: to generate negative responses.

    I also think it a bit of a stretch from anything really related to OC or even RKBA to the police defending themselves and the public from an unstable person with a shotgun.

    I'm having a hard time finding a single post from buncopanies that has contributed to the forum in any positive way, much less been at all supportive of OC or RKBA.

    She is a troll in every sense of the word and is best completely ignored.

    PLEASE, all, let's not go down the road again of encouraging or feeding the trolls or finding recreation in racing to the gutter with them. KSL, the DesNews, the SLTrib, and several other local (Utah) media and I'm sure other sponsors have anonymous websites where that kind of thing can go on without it reflecting poorly on the OC movement or gun owning community.


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact the Police showed up to save this mans life. Go figure.
    I think the police showed up to protect innocent bystanders--including the guy's family--from an unstable person with a gun who had made overt threats of violence.
    Okay, i hear that.
    But this is the same family that said the police didn't handle the situation properly? i mean, THEY were alive before the cops showed up, so they were safe. The same family that begged the cops to just let them talk to him and were refused AND threatened with arrest?
    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=6234797
    They weren't held hostage by this man, right? he was depressed. said some stuff he shouldn't have. and the fuzz came in with their brand new armored van that set you and me back $200k (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=6229558) and shot him. Didn't even give him the satisfaction of doing it himself. Dead is dead.

    ..i can only speculate that the family called the police for some actual help. Not a hand in assisting the man in his suicide. he was depressed! he was in the mental state to go out in a "blaze of glory". Something a 10 minute negotiation WOULDN'T help. Maybe a bit more effort, hmmmm...we will never know.

    http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/306594/17/

    within 10 minutes of the negotiator coming he's dead. C'mon Charles. your a smart guy. you can put this together on your own. 2hours total standoff? i wonder how long this guy was ranting to his family making these threats before he made a poor choice to discharged his weapon (which is the 'why' the LEOs were called) and lived, he was alive! i mean. wow.

    Yes, he shouldn't have raised his gun to the cops-- but ya know what: they shouldn't have been there: OBVIOUSLY he needed a doctor, not a team of eager executioners. Not to mention the family wasn't witness to this act, only heard the gunshot just like everyone else, so who knows what the story is IMO.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...298823,00.html

    Edit: inserted links to support certain statements.


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    Ok, so I was only 1/2 block away when this took place. First I just want to say don't make any assumptions about what really happened because the media dosen't always have or say the 100% truth; and alot of the time they twist the truth. So unless you were there and saw and witnessed the whole thing and knew exactly what was going on; please don't make accusations about the guy or his family.

    I know when Kev and I have been in the papers, the truth was twisted and things were said that weren't true at all or things were just made up that we didn't even say.

    So the little detail that I was told (that I don't know if it is accurate or true) is that Michael was depressed and was having some maritial problems. Some family was there and were involved. Also the police were trying to talk to the guy and work things threw and help him, then they heard a crash or a loud noise and thought he fell or something and came into the back door to help him. At some point he racked his shotgun and pointed it at the police, then the police fired because their lives at that moment were put in imediate danger. That is all I know or at least what I was told by my neighbors. Which again could be partly faulty, you never really know the whole truth unless you walk in someone elses shoes.

    Just my two cents on the story. My prayers go out to the family, especially his wife and three kids.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    the fuzz came in with their brand new armored van that set you and me back $200k
    Minor fact correction. The new armored van normally sells for $200k but was donated to Utah County by the Utah company that builds them, it didn't cost the taxpayers anything but the license plates.

    From the KSL article: "OCTI donated the first van to the Utah County Sheriff's Office"

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    I think the police showed up to protect innocent bystanders--including the guy's family--from an unstable person with a gun who had made overt threats of violence.

    Did you read any of the stories? Nowhere does it say that he threatened anyone but himself, until the police kicked his door in.

    I would like to pointa fewthings.

    Everything that my wife said is pretty much inline with what the media has reported.

    I can not find a single story where anyone was threatened, UNTIL the police entered his home. He was home alone.

    The police were not there, until the family brought them there.

    I can only assume that the family gave the police permission to kick the door in and enter.

    If you have not figured out whereI am going with this, let me be frank.

    If your loved ones have threatened to shoot themselves, DON'T CALL MORE MEN WITH GUNS!!!





    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6213674
    Officers arrived to find Batchelor's father and sister locked outside the house, unable to get in. Officers heard a crash inside the home, and thinking Batchelor was still alive and needing assistance, they kicked in the back door and went inside.
    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6234797

    Sunday night, they say Batchelor was feeling depressed and alone. He had a disagreement with his wife. "At 8:45 [p.m.], Mike texted all of his siblings and his wife and he said 'I love you. Goodbye,'" Barrowman said. She went to check on him, heard a gunshot and called 911.
    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12182853

    Batchelor was upset that his wife, who filed for divorce last week, had left the home with their three children that night, Howard said. Batchelor then sent her a cell phone text message that read, "I love you and goodbye."

    After receiving the message, Batchelor's wife called his sister, who went to the home to check on her brother, Howard said. When she and a neighbor arrived, the doors of the home were locked. The pair called police when they heard a gunshot, Howard said, and police arrived at 8:52 p.m.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I have a big problem with this story.

    If this guy was going through such emotional distress and depression, his family and friends should have secured his weapons! I know if I ever become severely depressed I would hope/expect my family to do so for me.

    Please show your friends/family/neighbors that you care about them by communicating with them regularly! Know and look for early warning signs, encourage or assist them in getting help! Even if you are not a Mormon, the local bishop can arrange mental health care at no cost for those who cannot afford it.

    So many of the recent tragedies might have been prevented with more proactive loved ones. If you have a friend or family member who is suicidal, they should never be left alone.

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    packingmama wrote:
    So unless you were there and saw and witnessed the whole thing and knew exactly what was going on; please don't make accusations about the guy or his family.
    Or the police.

    Don't get me wrong, I have no special love or affinity for police in general, nor do I have any particular disdain for them in general. Just like every other profession, there are good and there are bad.

    Most of you demand your right to defend yourself with deadly force, yet you would deny a police officer that same right. If you had been there and this person pointed a loaded shotgun at you, tell me you wouldn't have taken the shot to protect yourself.

    I could make a lot of speculations and accusations as to who was a fault for what, but I wasn't there. I don't know what happened when.

    I can tell you from my personal knowledge that this is the kind of call that the vast majority of police dread. They get no joy out of assisting a suicide.

    While the "stand off" may have only lasted two hours, the officers involved will spend several days of their time documenting what happened, reviewing what happened and trying to figure out what, if anything, they could have done differently to have a better outcome.

    I have in the past spent time out on both training and real incidents with the Utah County Sheriff's SWAT team and watched them spend hour upon hour trying to negotiate with people who have barricaded themselves with weapons. Just like a citizens lawful use of a handgun, you never hear about the majority of times when the situation ends without anyone dieing.


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    rpyne wrote:
    packingmama wrote:
    So unless you were there and saw and witnessed the whole thing and knew exactly what was going on; please don't make accusations about the guy or his family.
    ...If you had been there and this person pointed a loaded shotgun at you, tell me you wouldn't have taken the shot to protect yourself....
    I agree with the majority of your post. but allow me to answer the above captioned:

    If i walked into someones home uninvited, with a weapon, holstered or in my hand. i would expect NOTHING LESS from the homeowner than to protect themselves from imminent bodily harm, injury or/and death by any means necessary. So just to clarify: Depressed man in his home with a gun, men with guns come in uninvited by him --armed. yea, why is this so hard to understand?

    I still maintain the force shouldn't have even been there.

    Thats it.

    Are all LEOs jerks? No. are all LEOs eager to kill? No. Are all LEOs interested in infringing the rights of the very same citizens they took an oath to protect and serve? No!

    But with all that responsibility, you would just THINK things would be more peaceful.

    FYI: Not arguing, just expanding.



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    ScottyT wrote:
    If this guy was going through such emotional distress and depression, his family and friends should have secured his weapons! I know if I ever become severely depressed I would hope/expect my family to do so for me.

    Thank you. A great point I'd forgotten. On a couple of different occasions, a friend or family member has asked me to keep his guns for him. Just seemed a bit safer at the time than having them in the home and easily accessed by someone who was having a bit of a rough patch.

    Do this, and it becomes a lot easier to heed Jensen's advice not to call the cops to solve a potential suicide problem. A guy who pops a bunch of pills or even slits his wrists gets an ambulance. A guy who is just really, really down, gets a visit from his family, friends, or clergy. At worst, maybe a ride to see a counselor. But a guy with a gun often ends up with cops, and then too often ends up dead.

    I simply cannot be overly critical of the police in these cases. They get called, they respond. The fault lies with the person, and his friends/family.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    ScottyT wrote:
    If this guy was going through such emotional distress and depression, his family and friends should have secured his weapons! I know if I ever become severely depressed I would hope/expect my family to do so for me.

    Thank you. A great point I'd forgotten. On a couple of different occasions, a friend or family member has asked me to keep his guns for him. Just seemed a bit safer at the time than having them in the home and easily accessed by someone who was having a bit of a rough patch.

    Do this, and it becomes a lot easier to heed Jensen's advice not to call the cops to solve a potential suicide problem. A guy who pops a bunch of pills or even slits his wrists gets an ambulance. A guy who is just really, really down, gets a visit from his family, friends, or clergy. At worst, maybe a ride to see a counselor. But a guy with a gun often ends up with cops, and then too often ends up dead.

    I simply cannot be overly critical of the police in these cases. They get called, they respond. The fault lies with the person, and his friends/family.

    Charles
    Many times the cops are involved with the pill popper and the wrist slasher. It is just these calls are less dangerous for the LEO's GENERALLY than the distraught individual with a gun! I listen to a police scanner and many times a WEEK here in UTAH COUNTY the EMS crews are pre-staged until the LEO's can have a situation that is under control for the EMS crew.

    I know police officers, I have family that are Police Officers. I have great respect for many of the LEO's that I know and have dealt with. There are some that I have some differences of opinion.

    It is TRAGIC that these OFFICERS were forced into taking this action by the ACTIONS of this DISTRUBED INDIVIDUAL!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    rpyne wrote:
    packingmama wrote:
    So unless you were there and saw and witnessed the whole thing and knew exactly what was going on; please don't make accusations about the guy or his family.
    Or the police.

    I agree about the police, I should have included this.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    ScottyT wrote:
    Please show your friends/family/neighbors that you care about them by communicating with them regularly! Know and look for early warning signs, encourage or assist them in getting help!
    I agree with this, of course, but keep in mind that in some cases there aren't any warning signs. It's not uncommon to see someone who's a little down, but to have absolutely no way to tell that they're seriously considering suicide. In fact, severely depressed people often seem to cheer up in the days before they kill themselves.

    By all means, watch out for your friends and try to help when you do see warning signs, but don't blame the guy's family for not stepping in. They may not have had any idea.

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    utbagpiper wrote:
    I think the police showed up to protect innocent bystanders--including the guy's family--from an unstable person with a gun who had made overt threats of violence.

    Did you read any of the stories? Nowhere does it say that he threatened anyone but himself, until the police kicked his door in.

    I would like to pointa fewthings.

    Everything that my wife said is pretty much inline with what the media has reported.

    I can not find a single story where anyone was threatened, UNTIL the police entered his home. He was home alone.

    The police were not there, until the family brought them there.

    I can only assume that the family gave the police permission to kick the door in and enter.

    If you have not figured out whereI am going with this, let me be frank.

    If your loved ones have threatened to shoot themselves, DON'T CALL MORE MEN WITH GUNS!!!


    Good advise!


    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6213674
    Officers arrived to find Batchelor's father and sister locked outside the house, unable to get in. Officers heard a crash inside the home, and thinking Batchelor was still alive and needing assistance, they kicked in the back door and went inside.
    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6234797

    Sunday night, they say Batchelor was feeling depressed and alone. He had a disagreement with his wife. "At 8:45 [p.m.], Mike texted all of his siblings and his wife and he said 'I love you. Goodbye,'" Barrowman said. She went to check on him, heard a gunshot and called 911.
    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12182853

    Batchelor was upset that his wife, who filed for divorce last week, had left the home with their three children that night, Howard said. Batchelor then sent her a cell phone text message that read, "I love you and goodbye."

    After receiving the message, Batchelor's wife called his sister, who went to the home to check on her brother, Howard said. When she and a neighbor arrived, the doors of the home were locked. The pair called police when they heard a gunshot, Howard said, and police arrived at 8:52 p.m.

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