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Thread: Utah remains "Model for Campus Carry"

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Guns Easier to Obtain, Time Mag. Complains
    States from Montana to Texas have relaxed laws restricting the carrying and use of firearms in self-defense. The Lone Star state is even considering following Utah’s lead in making firearms legal on university and college campuses — the sort of thing that was politically unthinkable not long ago, thanks to the incurably irrational liberalism that tends to hold sway in the halls of higher learning.



    Concealed weapons bill meets objections on campus
    Utah is the only state that prevents individual schools from banning guns from campus. Other states either ban them outright at all state schools or leave the decision up to each institution.




    The loaded campus
    While most people agree that it's a good idea to keep firearms away from edifices of government and booze, 11 colleges nationwide allow concealed carry on campus, most notably every public college in Utah.



    CCSU club protests for right to carry guns on campus
    “Statistics show that when concealed carry increases, crime decreases. Obviously, if [a gunman gets] shot, they can’t shoot anyone else. There are schools in Utah and Colorado that allow concealed carry, and there haven’t been any shootings at those schools.”



    Students under fire for wanting to “pack heat”
    Utah is the only state that explicitly allows students who hold concealed weapons permits to carry guns at all public colleges and universities. But a number of other states, including Texas and Missouri, are considering similar action.




    Guns on college campus
    Currently, there are 11 colleges and universities that already allow it -- in Utah, West Virginia and Colorado.




    Ten Years After Columbine, It's Easier to Bear Arms
    This spring, for example, Texas lawmakers are mulling a new law that would allow college students to carry firearms to campus (Utah already makes this legal).




    Bill would allow concealed weapons at state colleges
    Currently, Utah is the only state that explicitly allows licensed gun-holders to carry their weapons on college campuses.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I'm one of these proud students

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    OH Snap! Here it is, in print!

    Student pushes for the right to bear arms on campus
    The national organization gives details on their Web site about their views on how if guns were allowed on campus.

    According to them, there would be less gun violence and crime committed at colleges around the country. This argument is based on what they call the Utah model.

    The Supreme Court in Utah ruled during the fall semester of 2006 that licensed persons the ability to carry concealed weapons on campus on all of the public universities in the state. This ruling was followed by a close study and observation that resulted in 80 semesters with no incidents of gun violence, including suicides by firearm.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    theyre just prejudice against us cool utah peeps

    ive denounced my "californianship"

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    theyre just prejudice against us cool utah peeps

    ive denounced my "californianship"
    Good-on-ya! My first question to any California resident is, why do you still live there?

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    And, SGT J, what will we do when you redeploy and we lose all these free research hours?

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I don't resaerch this stuff, it is all e-mailed to me by Google Alerts.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    The page at http://opencarry.org/ut.html, states that "Federal Gun-Free School Zones Act Restricts Carry to RESIDENT Permit Holders."Can anyonetell me the source of the restriction for non-resident holders of a Utah permit?

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    blainenay wrote:
    Can anyonetell me the source of the restriction for non-resident holders of a Utah permit?
    State.

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.


    Federal.

    § 922. — Unlawful acts.

    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possessa firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm--

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to doso by the State in which the school zone is located or a politicalsubdivision of the State, and the law of the State or politicalsubdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such aicense, the law enforcement authorities of the State or politicalsubdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law toreceive the license;

    (iii) that is--
    (I) not loaded;
    and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack thatis on a motor vehicle;


    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered intobetween a school in the school zone and the individual or anemployer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her officialcapacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual whiletraversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access topublic or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on schoolpremises is authorized by school authorities.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    As I understand it § 922 authorizes school zonecarry, if state law allows, by individuals "licensed to doso by the State in which the school zone is located or a politicalsubdivision of the State"

    While Utah recognizes permits from any other state, technically you could still be violating § 922 if you carried within 1,000 feet of a Utah school and the only permit you had was from another state. Of course, if you were a non-resident with a Utah permit, you ought to be safe (IANAL). And I think you might be able to make the argument that "licensed to do so by the State" could include other states' permits that the licensing state recognizes through reciprocity agreements and the like (in Utah's case, that'd be every permit), but I wouldn't want to wager a federal prison sentence on the matter.

    I believe that this idea that only residents can carry in school zones comes from a misinterpretation of § 922's "by the state in which the school zone is located" clause. I believe that those who claim that only residents can carry in a school zone fail to consider the circumstances ofnon-resident permits. However, they do raise a valid point that, by some interpretations of § 922, you may not beallowed you to carry within the GFSZ's of any state other than the one which issued your permit.

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    Sheesh, I just read my last post and it rambles along without making much sense. Let me try again:

    It's not an issue of resident vs non-resident but UT CWP vs another state's CWP. Under a narrow interpretation of § 922, anyone who was not "licensed ... by the State in which the school zone is located " (in other words, their permit is issued by a state other than Utah) would be violating the GFSZ Act if they carried in a UTschool zone.

    FL resident with UT permit in UT school zone = A-OK

    UT resident with FL permit in UT school zone = busted

    This same logic would, of course, extent to UT CWP holders who travel to other states.

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    You are mostly correct. Under federal law, school zones are only K-12, so a Utah permit would be needed.

    Universities are not off limits under federal law, so any permit would work in Utah for campus carry.

    Here is a memo from the ATF about the issue.


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Do you know of any cases where anyone's been prosecuted for violating the GFSZA in this manner (or, while I'm asking, any other manner either)?

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    SecondAmendmentStudents wrote:
    Do you know of any cases where anyone's been prosecuted for violating the GFSZA in this manner (or, while I'm asking, any other manner either)?
    Hey, I'm with you:

    But I wouldn't mess around with or tempt the big boys (ATF) in any way, especially since their offices are so close to home...

    ATF Utah Field Office
    257 East 200 South
    Suite 475
    Salt Lake City, UT 84111
    Phone: (801) 524-7000
    Fax: (801) 524-7050

    so..yea.
    http://www.justice.gov/usao/ut/flinks.html#atf

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    SecondAmendmentStudents wrote:
    Do you know of any cases where anyone's been prosecuted for violating the GFSZA in this manner (or, while I'm asking, any other manner either)?
    Not that I'm inclined to test it, knowingly. Nor would I ever encourage anyone to violate the law.

    But having been held unconstitutional in Lopez and repassed with nary a material change, I doubt the federal GFSZ law has been enforced at all since Lopez. My personal opinion is that the law serves its purpose of gun control primarily by encouraging State level GFSZ laws that are not subject to the challenge made in Lopez. Were the federal law to be enforced it might well be challenged and overturned again.

    And if that were to happen, how many States would simply drop their State level laws that mirror the federal law?

    So while I'm not about to knowingly violte the federal GFSZ law, I do not expect it to be enforced except in the most extreme case that would not make a good case to challenge and overturn it.

    I do think we need to see about bringing Utah's GFSZ law into conformity with the federal law by dropping higher ed, preschools, and the whole school activity section.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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