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Thread: When can I legally reach towards my gun?

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I have a friend who was in a situation where he really would have liked to have been carrying.

    Long story short, he made a guy mad (without breaking any laws, or even social norms, for that matter) and the guy started walking towards him quickly and aggressively while yelling "HEY! YOU NOSY F***!" (My friend had just saved an honest guy from being scammed out of some money by this other guy who had tried to scam me a couple weeks before, while my friend was present.) This guy was a lot bigger than my friend and was clearly aggressive, although we never found out if he would have become violent because my friend got in his car and drove away very quickly, before the guy could reach him.

    If my friend would have been carrying, at what point could he have reached towards his gun and put his hand on the grip, without drawing? I know that cops can lay their hand on the grip whenever they feel threatened at all, but can we do the same without an immediate fear of death/injury?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    I would think, that while open carrying, these scenes would be less likely to happen. People seem to dig up some of those good ol' fashioned manners when they see a gun on the hip.

    If and when it does happen however, I don't see anything in the law that says you can't place your hand on your holster/grip. I'm constantly adjusting my serpa for maximum comfort, when OC'ing. The closest issue seems to be "brandishing" and we've all read up on that and it's lack of legal definition. I don't think it should be done unless absolutely necessary and you/he absolutely anticipates drawing and firing the weapon. I wouldn't want to give the anti's a foothold on the issue. All we need is everyone who OC's reaching for their side-arm every time someone is less than cordial with them.

    My .02

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    i was always taught as a general rule "ready at 20", IE when the threat is 20 feet away be ready to draw and fire. When a threat is inside 15 feet they are within a few strides of you and can easily disarm you while you are drawing.

    Im not a lawyer but I cant remember a law that states you cannot touch your firearm when you are carrying.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Hmm, might it be time once again to email the good Sergeant Deasy? Venator seems to have good luck with hearing the information he wants to hear from Sgt. Deasy, so I might leave the emailing up to him. :P
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    I have a friend who was in a situation where he really would have liked to have been carrying.

    Long story short, he made a guy mad (without breaking any laws, or even social norms, for that matter) and the guy started walking towards him quickly and aggressively while yelling "HEY! YOU NOSY F***!" (My friend had just saved an honest guy from being scammed out of some money by this other guy who had tried to scam me a couple weeks before, while my friend was present.) This guy was a lot bigger than my friend and was clearly aggressive, although we never found out if he would have become violent because my friend got in his car and drove away very quickly, before the guy could reach him.

    If my friend would have been carrying, at what point could he have reached towards his gun and put his hand on the grip, without drawing? I know that cops can lay their hand on the grip whenever they feel threatened at all, but can we do the same without an immediate fear of death/injury?

    In my CPL class, the instructor taught us to remember AIM as a means to justify lethal force.

    For example,

    A (Ability)=Does s/he have to Ability to inflict great bodily harm, rape or death?
    Yes, s/he's within 20 feet and approaching aggressively.

    I (Intent)=Does s/he have Intent to inflict great bodily harm, rape or death?
    Yes, s/he's approaching aggressively while yelling; I'm going to kill you unless you give me your money.

    M (Means)=Does s/he have the Means to inflict great bodily harm, rape or death?
    Yes, s/he's approaching aggressively wielding a baseball bat.


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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    The closest issue seems to be "brandishing" and we've all read up on that and it's lack of legal definition.
    I looked up brandishing and found this:

    "750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234e.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.

    (b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.

    (c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.

    (d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both."

    But it doesn't define it!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    AG Opinion 7101 on brandishing

    In pertinent part:

    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10176.htm

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Found this:

    "BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public."

    It applies to off duty cops but defines brandishing, in a way.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Where did you find that EM87, I've been looking all over for it.

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    EM87 wrote:
    Found this:

    "BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public."

    It applies to off duty cops but defines brandishing, in a way.
    Notice the bold faced print. It is not makes no mention of "off duty cops". It shows that "reserve police officers", are not "off duty cops", but are in fact just private citizens.

    Like SpringerXCacp said. If you can articulate a reasonable fear for death, rape, or great bodily harm, then you have a green light.

    Skip Coryell made a good statement in one of his books (or articles). I'm not sure of the exact quote so I'll paraphrase.

    When you carry a gun, you do not get to engage in fights. You do not provoke, or antagonize. You do not taunt. You learn to walk away, and you learn avoidance. You leave your pride in the gun case when you take the gun out of it. You walk away from situations where you might normally take a stand..
    If your friend didn't know that it might be a problem for him to out the con man in front of both him and the mark, does he have good judgment to avoid trouble when carrying a gun? I understand standing up for righteousness, but when firearms are involved, the ramifications can be much more severe.

    I will say that if I was on a jury where a person was shot in such a situation where the aggressor is considerably larger than the defender, I would probably find it justifiable. I personally don't even think there should be need for a disparity of force. One punch can prove to be fatal, either in and of itself, or in conjunction with furtherance of the assault. The fact is, once the fists start flying, there's no telling what the result can be.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Where did you find that EM87, I've been looking all over for it.
    Whoops. I looked it up and posted without reloading the thread. :P

    Ghostrider, are you saying that a reserve police officer is just another name for a civilian? I'm slightly confused about that one.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Where did you find that EM87, I've been looking all over for it.
    Whoops. I looked it up and posted without reloading the thread. :P

    Ghostrider, are you saying that a reserve police officer is just another name for a civilian? I'm slightly confused about that one.
    First, police officers and other non-military LEO are "civilians".

    Second,

    Read the whole opinion.
    You have asked if a reserve police officer, by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, violates section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.
    The Michigan Penal Code, MCL 750.1 et seq, revises, consolidates, and codifies the state's criminal statutes. Section 234e(1) of the Code criminalizes1 the brandishing of a firearm in public as follows:
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
    Subsection (2) of the same section states that "[s]ubsection (1) does not apply to...[a] peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer."
    The term "peace officer" refers to members of governmental police forces who have been given broad, general authority by law to enforce and preserve the public peace. People v Bissonette, 327 Mich 349, 356; 42 NW2d 113 (1950). Most governmental police officers, i.e., officers who are employed by the state or its political subdivisions, possess such authority and are, therefore, "peace officers." 1 OAG, 1955, No 1891, p 72 (February 24, 1955); 2 OAG, 1958, No 3212, p 60 (February 21, 1958). Conversely, police officers such as motor carrier enforcement officers who possess only restricted or special enforcement authority do not meet this standard and therefore do not qualify as "peace officers." People v Bissonette, supra;OAG, 1987-1988, No 6530, p 362 (August 5, 1988). Thus, a reserve police officer with limited law enforcement authority would not qualify as a "peace officer" under subsection 2 of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. A reserve police officer with general law enforcement authority who is regularly employed would qualify as a "peace officer" under subsection (2) of section 234e. See OAG, 1973-1974, No 4792, p 78 (August 27, 1973), and OAG, 1979-1980, No 5806, p 1055 (October 28, 1980).
    Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases,2 none of the cases define the term.
    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."
    Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.
    It is my opinion, therefore, that a reserve police officer, by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.

    JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM

    Attorney General



    The opinion clearly states that unless the Reserve officer who is:

    A reserve police officer with general law enforcement authority who is regularly employed would qualify as a "peace officer"...
    This means that they are employed with full authority of a regular peace officer.
    It also states that:

    ...a reserve police officer with limited law enforcement authority would not qualify as a "peace officer" under subsection 2 of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.
    ...
    A reserve officer is not a "peace officer" under the statute. Under the statute, that officer is essentially a private citizen as far as the statute goes.

    It makes it sound like there are reserve officers who are hired on as regulars, with full police authority, and that there are reserve officers who do not have such authority.

    Now, that just means that the reserve officer (absent government employment mentioned in the opinion) does not fall under the protection of the statute given to "peace officers".

    However, that does not matter, because she went on to state that it isn't brandishing
    regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer".
    The opinion is not saying that it applies to off duty cops. It's saying that the reserve officer mentioned does not qualify as a "peace officer" under the statute, and therefore does not qualify for the exemption for "peace officer" under the statute.

    It also is saying that it doesn't matter because a holstered weapon is not in and of itself brandishing.


    To sum it up, She is saying that a reserve officer as mentioned is not different than a private citizen under the statute, and that a holstered weapon is not in and of itself brandishing.


    Now,

    I'm fairly confident that if you put your hand on your gun and warn someone to back off, then it could be brandishing. The intent seems to be to intimidate, using the weapon as a tool of that intimidation. The way the law is written, you are only authorized to use lethal force in the already mentioned situations. This is why I agree with Skip, and stress the responsibility of avoiding such conflict. It allows too much room for bad things to happen, and too much legal gray area.

    I understand the good intentions of your friend not wanting to stand by and let the mark get taken for his cash, but put yourself in that position with a concealed handgun (probably wouldn't have happened with a OC gun because the con would have probably taken him for a cop). Your about to do something that could possibly end up in you being involved in a fight, and you are carrying a gun. (If you don't know that doing something that can affect the con's livelihood can end up in a fight, then you might want to do a little more learning. People can be testy about such things.) Do you really want to get into a fight while your carrying a gun? What other options are there. What will happen if you get into a fight while carrying a gun?

    Your friend did the right thing by driving away.


    Sorry about the bold faced print. Couldn't edit it out.



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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Woah, I didn't mean to set you off like that, I just didn't have time to read the opinion in its entirety when I posted. That's good info though, thanks!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    Woah, I didn't mean to set you off like that, I just didn't have time to read the opinion in its entirety when I posted. That's good info though, thanks!
    Didn't set me off.

    I couldn't figure out how to remove the bold faced print and go back to normal. That's the reason for my last line.

    Remember that when information is posted here, you aren't the only one reading it. Thus, I tried to be thorough.

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    If I feel it nessassary to put my hand on my pistol I have already pulled it out and fired it. Anythingless is brashishment by law.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    If you honestly feel you are about to be killed or have serious bodily injury deadly force is allowed.

    As for drawing a weapon to stop an attack that is case by case. If I had to do that I would as soon as possible call the police and report it. Generally thefirst to call 911 wins in he said she said. If the aggressor calls and said you pointed a gun at him and the police come and find a gun on you...oh boy bad things can happen. The LEO's are going to lean harder on you than the aggressor.

    If you call and explain what happened you are the good guy and may get a break. Besides if you feared for your life you should probably call the police on the aggressor anyway.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    MACHINEGUNMATT wrote:
    If I feel it nessassary to put my hand on my pistol I have already pulled it out and fired it.* Anything*less is brashishment by law.
    IMO, It's not brandishing to place your hand on your firearm. My opinion also coincides with the Attorney General's opinion, which defines Brandishing as "To wave or flourish menacingly."

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    EM87 wrote:
    I have a friend who was in a situation where he really would have liked to have been carrying.

    Long story short, he made a guy mad (without breaking any laws, or even social norms, for that matter) and the guy started walking towards him quickly and aggressively while yelling "HEY! YOU NOSY F***!" (My friend had just saved an honest guy from being scammed out of some money by this other guy who had tried to scam me a couple weeks before, while my friend was present.) This guy was a lot bigger than my friend and was clearly aggressive, although we never found out if he would have become violent because my friend got in his car and drove away very quickly, before the guy could reach him.

    If my friend would have been carrying, at what point could he have reached towards his gun and put his hand on the grip, without drawing? I know that cops can lay their hand on the grip whenever they feel threatened at all, but can we do the same without an immediate fear of death/injury?
    If your friend had enough time to get in his car and drive away while he was unarmed he probably would have had enough time to get away in the same manner while armed.

    That means the gun is non-essential and it would not be logical for the friend to wish that he would have been carrying. In that situation it is useless to have the gun. Actually, having the gun might influence the friend to stick around longer, since he had the equalizer.

    This seems like a classic case of foolishly wishing for a gun to handle a situation that is not a gun situation. Silly, probably. Shortsighted, certainly. Wishing for the gun is a tangential approach to solving a specific problem.

    What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

    If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?

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    EM87 wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Where did you find that EM87, I've been looking all over for it.
    Whoops. I looked it up and posted without reloading the thread. :P

    Ghostrider, are you saying that a reserve police officer is just another name for a civilian? I'm slightly confused about that one.
    Ghostrider is correct, reserve officers generally are not considered "peace officers" in Michigan. In order to be a "peace officer", the major issues revolve around how the person who is a reserve officer is paid and what training they have had.

    Most reserve officers are paid for the time they put in when they work a specific event: a fair, a community rally, directing traffic after a large church lets out, etc. However, they volunteer their time in the patrol car or at the sheriff's office, these hours are usually set as a certain minimum per month. If the "Reserve officer" is regularly paid though, they would fall under the requiremeents for training listed below.

    In Michigan, there is, I believe a fund for dependents of "peace officers" killed in the line of duty to pay for college. Also, peace officers are eligible for retirement.

    In regards to training, a "peace officer" needs to be certified by MCOLES (Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards" . People who serve as a "Reserve"or "Auxiliary" officer are generally exempt from the requirement. Additionally, people who are given "police powers" as a function of their employment are also exempt. In my job, I am considered an "attendance officer" for the school district for whom I work, and when performing my job, I am given the powers of a deputy sheriff. However, under Michigan law, I am not considered a "peace officer".

    The AG opinion is now a "non-issue". PA 407, which came into effect Apr. 6, 2009, states that reserve police officers are exempt from the CPL "Pistol Free Zones", listed in MCL28.425o.

    BTW, Motor Carrier Officers with the MSP are also not "peace officers" in Michigan. They have been added to those whom CPL holders must inform, though, as there was some confusion when the law was first written.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.*

    If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?
    The amount of money scammed (attempted) was around 20 bucks. Yes, I know that it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so whether or not my friend was carrying, walking away was the right thing to do. I don't need to hear that concept repeated because I understand it fully.

    The guy, at least when he tried it on me, said that he had locked his keys and wallet in his car and needed money to pay the tow truck guy to open it, and could pay back the money as soon as it was opened because he had money in his wallet (in the car.)
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

    If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?
    The amount of money scammed (attempted) was around 20 bucks. Yes, I know that it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so whether or not my friend was carrying, walking away was the right thing to do. I don't need to hear that concept repeated because I understand it fully.

    The guy, at least when he tried it on me, said that he had locked his keys and wallet in his car and needed money to pay the tow truck guy to open it, and could pay back the money as soon as it was opened because he had money in his wallet (in the car.)
    Good lord, man. You and your friend are talking about needing a gun to handle a beggar!

    For less than 20 bucks! How much less than $20????

    $10???

    $15???

    You and your friend need to get with it. Guns are not for beggars.

    Here's rule No. 1 for handling beggars: Say no (or yes).

    Rule 2 for beggars: Walk away.

    BTW, is this the same friend you had that was wanting to know how much money he could get if he was carrying a gun and was "wrongfully arrested?"

    He wanted to "sue for a million dollars," I think it was.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/23153.html

    Maybe your "friends" shouldn't handle guns. They seem to be distracted about what they're for. They're not for beggars and they're not for getting big dollar legal settlements...






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    HankT wrote:
    EM87 wrote:
    I have a friend who was in a situation where he really would have liked to have been carrying.

    Long story short, he made a guy mad (without breaking any laws, or even social norms, for that matter) and the guy started walking towards him quickly and aggressively while yelling "HEY! YOU NOSY F***!" (My friend had just saved an honest guy from being scammed out of some money by this other guy who had tried to scam me a couple weeks before, while my friend was present.) This guy was a lot bigger than my friend and was clearly aggressive, although we never found out if he would have become violent because my friend got in his car and drove away very quickly, before the guy could reach him.

    If my friend would have been carrying, at what point could he have reached towards his gun and put his hand on the grip, without drawing? I know that cops can lay their hand on the grip whenever they feel threatened at all, but can we do the same without an immediate fear of death/injury?
    If your friend had enough time to get in his car and drive away while he was unarmed he probably would have had enough time to get away in the same manner while armed.

    That means the gun is non-essential and it would not be logical for the friend to wish that he would have been carrying. In that situation it is useless to have the gun. Actually, having the gun might influence the friend to stick around longer, since he had the equalizer.

    This seems like a classic case of foolishly wishing for a gun to handle a situation that is not a gun situation. Silly, probably. Shortsighted, certainly. Wishing for the gun is a tangential approach to solving a specific problem.

    What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

    If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?
    In Michigan, the fact that he was able to retreat or leave is irrelevant legally. That's a good thing. However, based on what the OP described, I certainly wouldn't want to be the one who needed to justify shooting a person who tried to con someone else out of $20.

    Like I said, I applaud him for standing against a wrong doing, but leaving was the correct choice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    EM87 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

    If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?
    The amount of money scammed (attempted) was around 20 bucks. Yes, I know that it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so whether or not my friend was carrying, walking away was the right thing to do. I don't need to hear that concept repeated because I understand it fully.

    The guy, at least when he tried it on me, said that he had locked his keys and wallet in his car and needed money to pay the tow truck guy to open it, and could pay back the money as soon as it was opened because he had money in his wallet (in the car.)
    Good lord, man. You and your friend are talking about needing a gun to handle a beggar!

    For less than 20 bucks! How much less than $20????

    $10???

    $15???

    You and your friend need to get with it. Guns are not for beggars.

    Here's rule No. 1 for handling beggars: Say no (or yes).

    Rule 2 for beggars: Walk away.

    BTW, is this the same friend you had that was wanting to know how much money he could get if he was carrying a gun and was "wrongfully arrested?"

    He wanted to "sue for a million dollars," I think it was.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/23153.html

    Maybe your "friends" shouldn't handle guns. They seem to be distracted about what they're for. They're not for beggars and they're not for getting big dollar legal settlements...




    My friend was not dealing with a beggar, he was dealing with an individual who was advancing towards him and yelling aggressively. He was well spoken and obviously a smart guy, not just some bum. And didn't I just say that I understand that $20 is not a lot of money and that the situation was handled correctly? Don't flame me when I've clearly stated that I already understand that the money wasn't a big deal. I UNDERSTAND AND I AGREE, like I JUST SAID. And no, it wasn't the same friend. That guy, I'll admit, isn't the smartest. Just because I posted about one friend with a stupid idea doesn't mean the rest of them are the same way. And you said that I'm talking about "needing a gun to handle a beggar", when in fact I only asked when a person can legally reach for it, and that my friend would have felt better if he'd had one. I didn't say that he would have shot the guy. He may still have just driven away. I understand that guns are not for beggars and not for legal settlements, thank you. Don't assume things then flame me or my friends for your assumptions.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    EM87 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    EM87 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

    If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?
    The amount of money scammed (attempted) was around 20 bucks. Yes, I know that it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so whether or not my friend was carrying, walking away was the right thing to do. I don't need to hear that concept repeated because I understand it fully.

    The guy, at least when he tried it on me, said that he had locked his keys and wallet in his car and needed money to pay the tow truck guy to open it, and could pay back the money as soon as it was opened because he had money in his wallet (in the car.)
    Good lord, man. You and your friend are talking about needing a gun to handle a beggar!

    For less than 20 bucks! How much less than $20????

    $10???

    $15???

    You and your friend need to get with it. Guns are not for beggars.

    Here's rule No. 1 for handling beggars: Say no (or yes).

    Rule 2 for beggars: Walk away.

    BTW, is this the same friend you had that was wanting to know how much money he could get if he was carrying a gun and was "wrongfully arrested?"

    He wanted to "sue for a million dollars," I think it was.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/23153.html

    Maybe your "friends" shouldn't handle guns. They seem to be distracted about what they're for. They're not for beggars and they're not for getting big dollar legal settlements...




    My friend was not dealing with a beggar, he was dealing with an individual who was advancing towards him and yelling aggressively. He was well spoken and obviously a smart guy, not just some bum. And didn't I just say that I understand that $20 is not a lot of money and that the situation was handled correctly? Don't flame me when I've clearly stated that I already understand that the money wasn't a big deal. I UNDERSTAND AND I AGREE, like I JUST SAID. And no, it wasn't the same friend. That guy, I'll admit, isn't the smartest. Just because I posted about one friend with a stupid idea doesn't mean the rest of them are the same way. And you said that I'm talking about "needing a gun to handle a beggar", when in fact I only asked when a person can legally reach for it, and that my friend would have felt better if he'd had one. I didn't say that he would have shot the guy. He may still have just driven away. I understand that guns are not for beggars and not for legal settlements, thank you. Don't assume things then flame me or my friends for your assumptions.
    Even though none of us were there, we all have an opinion about the incident as it was described. Because we weren't present, we jump to assumptions, but so would a judge and/or a jury. This is why I would definitely hate to be in court trying to explain why a person was shot when even a pretty friendly board sees it from various points of view.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
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    EM87 wrote:
    I have a friend who was in a situation where he really would have liked to have been carrying.

    Long story short, he made a guy mad (without breaking any laws, or even social norms, for that matter) and the guy started walking towards him quickly and aggressively while yelling "HEY! YOU NOSY F***!" (My friend had just saved an honest guy from being scammed out of some money by this other guy who had tried to scam me a couple weeks before, while my friend was present.) This guy was a lot bigger than my friend and was clearly aggressive, although we never found out if he would have become violent because my friend got in his car and drove away very quickly, before the guy could reach him.

    If my friend would have been carrying, at what point could he have reached towards his gun and put his hand on the grip, without drawing? I know that cops can lay their hand on the grip whenever they feel threatened at all, but can we do the same without an immediate fear of death/injury?
    I'm not the moral police so I won't lecture you or your friend here, but instead impose a personal story on a similar situation:

    Late one night, on a quiet road, a man at the red light next to me began yelling a string of obscenities at me. He accused me of cutting him off at some point behind us. Whether I did or didn't, I don't know. I chose to ignore him. I put my window up and looked straight ahead, waiting for the light to turn green. The light turned and we both drove. He began driving like a complete idiot... getting on my rear bumper, flashing his high beams, trying to get in front of me to cut me off... the whole 9 yards. I could have called the police. Maybe I should have. But this particular city is not really known for rapid police response, much less to road rage when the targets are moving. My pistol was laying on the passenger seat (I often keep it there when driving because it's easier to grab it off the seat than it is to get it off my hip while driving). At the next red light, he got the best of me and words were exchanged. Specifically, I told him to get over himself and called him a "butt"hole. He got out of his vehicle, carrying something in his hand. I couldn't make out what it was at first, but I knew it wasn't a gun. I started to put my driver window up to buy me time (even if it was only a moment or two) to figure out what it was before I determined whether or not I needed to grab my firearm. As he approached my door, I could see that it was only an ice scraper. He struck my window with it several times as if he were trying to break in. At this point, I could have done several different things; fleeing being one of them. But screw that... I was pissed because I felt like he was trying to damage my property. So I got out of my vehicle, yanked the ice scraper from his hand, and threw it across the lane into where opposing traffic (if there were any) travels. I had a choice words for him as I did this. I don't know if he was shocked or scared that I got out of my truck, but he started running back towards his open door (driver side, opposite the vehicle). I didn't pursue him... I simply got back in my vehicle and turned onto the next road to find an alternate route home. He never knew I had a gun in my vehicle.

    Someone yelling obscenities and advancing upon you, to me, is not cause to shoot. Others may disagree... but for me, I'd rather take an honest, good old fashioned, butt whooping than to shoot an unarmed man. Or a man armed with an ice scraper. My belief is that even if you CAN justify it in court, you can't always justify the taking of another human life to yourself later down the road. I understand "eminent danger... great bodily harm... loss of life" and all that. If I honestly felt that, then sure, I'd do what I had to. But most unarmed people cannot inflect those levels of damage on another unarmed person.

    I understand that many people carry a pistol for their own safety. But if safety is really their caveat, then I believe they should also take self defense courses to defend themselves without the use of a pistol... because most street encounters are going to be against an unarmed assailant where you won't be justified (legally or morally) in drawing a pistol and firing upon them. For me, carrying a pistol is a means of protection... but it only protects me from those who come at me with more than fists or a piece of plastic.

    Just my two cents.

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