When can I legally reach towards my gun?

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EM87 wrote:

HankT wrote:

What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?

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The amount of money scammed (attempted) was around 20 bucks. Yes, I know that it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so whether or not my friend was carrying, walking away was the right thing to do. I don't need to hear that concept repeated because I understand it fully.

The guy, at least when he tried it on me, said that he had locked his keys and wallet in his car and needed money to pay the tow truck guy to open it, and could pay back the money as soon as it was opened because he had money in his wallet (in the car.)

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Good lord, man. You and your friend are talking about needing a gun to handle a beggar!

For less than 20 bucks! How much less than $20????

$10???

$15???

You and your friend need to get with it. Guns are not for beggars.

Here's rule No. 1 for handling beggars: Say no (or yes).

Rule 2 for beggars: Walk away.

BTW, is this the same friend you had that was wanting to know how much money he could get if he was carrying a gun and was "wrongfully arrested?"

He wanted to "sue for a million dollars," I think it was.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/23153.html

Maybe your "friends" shouldn't handle guns. They seem to be distracted about what they're for. They're not for beggars and they're not for getting big dollar legal settlements...

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HankT wrote:

EM87 wrote:

I have a friend who was in a situation where he really would have liked to have been carrying.

Long story short, he made a guy mad (without breaking any laws, or even social norms, for that matter) and the guy started walking towards him quickly and aggressively while yelling "HEY! YOU NOSY F***!" (My friend had just saved an honest guy from being scammed out of some money by this other guy who had tried to scam me a couple weeks before, while my friend was present.) This guy was a lot bigger than my friend and was clearly aggressive, although we never found out if he would have become violent because my friend got in his car and drove away very quickly, before the guy could reach him.

If my friend would have been carrying, at what point could he have reached towards his gun and put his hand on the grip, without drawing? I know that cops can lay their hand on the grip whenever they feel threatened at all, but can we do the same without an immediate fear of death/injury?

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If your friend had enough time to get in his car and drive away while he was unarmed he probably would have had enough time to get away in the same manner while armed.

That means the gun is non-essential and it would not be logical for the friend to wish that he would have been carrying. In that situation it is useless to have the gun. Actually, having the gun might influence the friend to stick around longer, since he had the equalizer.

This seems like a classic case of foolishly wishing for a gun to handle a situation that is not a gun situation. Silly, probably. Shortsighted, certainly. Wishing for the gun is a tangential approach to solving a specific problem.

What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?

Click to expand...

In Michigan, the fact that he was able to retreat or leave is irrelevant legally. That's a good thing. However, based on what the OP described, I certainly wouldn't want to be the one who needed to justify shooting a person who tried to con someone else out of $20.

Like I said, I applaud him for standing against a wrong doing, but leaving was the correct choice.

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HankT wrote:

EM87 wrote:

HankT wrote:

What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?

Click to expand...

The amount of money scammed (attempted) was around 20 bucks. Yes, I know that it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so whether or not my friend was carrying, walking away was the right thing to do. I don't need to hear that concept repeated because I understand it fully.

The guy, at least when he tried it on me, said that he had locked his keys and wallet in his car and needed money to pay the tow truck guy to open it, and could pay back the money as soon as it was opened because he had money in his wallet (in the car.)

Click to expand...

Good lord, man. You and your friend are talking about needing a gun to handle a beggar!

For less than 20 bucks! How much less than $20????

$10???

$15???

You and your friend need to get with it. Guns are not for beggars.

Here's rule No. 1 for handling beggars: Say no (or yes).

Rule 2 for beggars: Walk away.

BTW, is this the same friend you had that was wanting to know how much money he could get if he was carrying a gun and was "wrongfully arrested?"

He wanted to "sue for a million dollars," I think it was.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/23153.html

Maybe your "friends" shouldn't handle guns. They seem to be distracted about what they're for. They're not for beggars and they're not for getting big dollar legal settlements...

Click to expand...

My friend was not dealing with a beggar, he was dealing with an individual who was advancing towards him and yelling aggressively. He was well spoken and obviously a smart guy, not just some bum. And didn't I just say that I understand that $20 is not a lot of money and that the situation was handled correctly? Don't flame me when I've clearly stated that I already understand that the money wasn't a big deal. I UNDERSTAND AND I AGREE, like I JUST SAID. And no, it wasn't the same friend. That guy, I'll admit, isn't the smartest. Just because I posted about one friend with a stupid idea doesn't mean the rest of them are the same way. And you said that I'm talking about "needing a gun to handle a beggar", when in fact I only asked when a person can legally reach for it, and that my friend would have felt better if he'd had one. I didn't say that he would have shot the guy. He may still have just driven away. I understand that guns are not for beggars and not for legal settlements, thank you. Don't assume things then flame me or my friends for your assumptions.

imported post

EM87 wrote:

HankT wrote:

EM87 wrote:

HankT wrote:

What kind of scam was this? Something illegal or shady? That background, at least in general, is probably not irrelevant.

If you can't answer that, answer this: How much $$ was involved?

Click to expand...

The amount of money scammed (attempted) was around 20 bucks. Yes, I know that it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so whether or not my friend was carrying, walking away was the right thing to do. I don't need to hear that concept repeated because I understand it fully.

The guy, at least when he tried it on me, said that he had locked his keys and wallet in his car and needed money to pay the tow truck guy to open it, and could pay back the money as soon as it was opened because he had money in his wallet (in the car.)

Click to expand...

Good lord, man. You and your friend are talking about needing a gun to handle a beggar!

For less than 20 bucks! How much less than $20????

$10???

$15???

You and your friend need to get with it. Guns are not for beggars.

Here's rule No. 1 for handling beggars: Say no (or yes).

Rule 2 for beggars: Walk away.

BTW, is this the same friend you had that was wanting to know how much money he could get if he was carrying a gun and was "wrongfully arrested?"

He wanted to "sue for a million dollars," I think it was.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/23153.html

Maybe your "friends" shouldn't handle guns. They seem to be distracted about what they're for. They're not for beggars and they're not for getting big dollar legal settlements...

Click to expand...

My friend was not dealing with a beggar, he was dealing with an individual who was advancing towards him and yelling aggressively. He was well spoken and obviously a smart guy, not just some bum. And didn't I just say that I understand that $20 is not a lot of money and that the situation was handled correctly? Don't flame me when I've clearly stated that I already understand that the money wasn't a big deal. I UNDERSTAND AND I AGREE, like I JUST SAID. And no, it wasn't the same friend. That guy, I'll admit, isn't the smartest. Just because I posted about one friend with a stupid idea doesn't mean the rest of them are the same way. And you said that I'm talking about "needing a gun to handle a beggar", when in fact I only asked when a person can legally reach for it, and that my friend would have felt better if he'd had one. I didn't say that he would have shot the guy. He may still have just driven away. I understand that guns are not for beggars and not for legal settlements, thank you. Don't assume things then flame me or my friends for your assumptions.

Click to expand...

Even though none of us were there, we all have an opinion about the incident as it was described. Because we weren't present, we jump to assumptions, but so would a judge and/or a jury. This is why I would definitely hate to be in court trying to explain why a person was shot when even a pretty friendly board sees it from various points of view.

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EM87 wrote:

I have a friend who was in a situation where he really would have liked to have been carrying.

Long story short, he made a guy mad (without breaking any laws, or even social norms, for that matter) and the guy started walking towards him quickly and aggressively while yelling "HEY! YOU NOSY F***!" (My friend had just saved an honest guy from being scammed out of some money by this other guy who had tried to scam me a couple weeks before, while my friend was present.) This guy was a lot bigger than my friend and was clearly aggressive, although we never found out if he would have become violent because my friend got in his car and drove away very quickly, before the guy could reach him.

If my friend would have been carrying, at what point could he have reached towards his gun and put his hand on the grip, without drawing? I know that cops can lay their hand on the grip whenever they feel threatened at all, but can we do the same without an immediate fear of death/injury?

Click to expand...

I'm not the moral police so I won't lecture you or your friend here, but instead impose a personal story on a similar situation:

Late one night, on a quiet road, a man at the red light next to me began yelling a string of obscenities at me. He accused me of cutting him off at some point behind us. Whether I did or didn't, I don't know. I chose to ignore him. I put my window up and looked straight ahead, waiting for the light to turn green. The light turned and we both drove. He began driving like a complete idiot... getting on my rear bumper, flashing his high beams, trying to get in front of me to cut me off... the whole 9 yards. I could have called the police. Maybe I should have. But this particular city is not really known for rapid police response, much less to road rage when the targets are moving. My pistol was laying on the passenger seat (I often keep it there when driving because it's easier to grab it off the seat than it is to get it off my hip while driving). At the next red light, he got the best of me and words were exchanged. Specifically, I told him to get over himself and called him a "butt"hole. He got out of his vehicle, carrying something in his hand. I couldn't make out what it was at first, but I knew it wasn't a gun. I started to put my driver window up to buy me time (even if it was only a moment or two) to figure out what it was before I determined whether or not I needed to grab my firearm. As he approached my door, I could see that it was only an ice scraper. He struck my window with it several times as if he were trying to break in. At this point, I could have done several different things; fleeing being one of them. But screw that... I was pissed because I felt like he was trying to damage my property. So I got out of my vehicle, yanked the ice scraper from his hand, and threw it across the lane into where opposing traffic (if there were any) travels. I had a choice words for him as I did this. I don't know if he was shocked or scared that I got out of my truck, but he started running back towards his open door (driver side, opposite the vehicle). I didn't pursue him... I simply got back in my vehicle and turned onto the next road to find an alternate route home. He never knew I had a gun in my vehicle.

Someone yelling obscenities and advancing upon you, to me, is not cause to shoot. Others may disagree... but for me, I'd rather take an honest, good old fashioned, butt whooping than to shoot an unarmed man. Or a man armed with an ice scraper. My belief is that even if you CAN justify it in court, you can't always justify the taking of another human life to yourself later down the road. I understand "eminent danger... great bodily harm... loss of life" and all that. If I honestly felt that, then sure, I'd do what I had to. But most unarmed people cannot inflect those levels of damage on another unarmed person.

I understand that many people carry a pistol for their own safety. But if safety is really their caveat, then I believe they should also take self defense courses to defend themselves without the use of a pistol... because most street encounters are going to be against an unarmed assailant where you won't be justified (legally or morally) in drawing a pistol and firing upon them. For me, carrying a pistol is a means of protection... but it only protects me from those who come at me with more than fists or a piece of plastic.

Just my two cents.

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Thanks, Veritas. Those words bring a sense of perspective that I'm sure many will appreciate, including me.

Story time.

Last night I was with a few friends coming back from a party. It may have been about 3am or so. There were five of us in the car: myself in the front passenger seat, the girl I'm dating was driving, and in the back were two girls and a guy. We were dropping off one of the girls at her place (a rather nice apartment complex in a good part of town). She had just gotten out of the car and about 10 seconds later came walking back with a weird look on her face. She just stood there by the window (which was being rolled down so we could talk to her) and I was wondering what she was doing for a second until I saw what was up. Some guy had just followed her to the car and was pressing us for money. The window was still down so he stuck his head all the way in and was saying that we should all give him money. He looked pretty coked out, and keep in mind that it's 3am in a good neighborhood, and people like this don't usually come around here. With his head in the window right in front of my girlfriend, I went into protector mode and unbuckled so I could draw if I had to, while reaching towards my wallet/gun on my right side (that he couldn't see). While everyone else told him they had nothing for him, I reached past my gun and grabbed my wallet out of my back pocket. I gave him a dollar and told him that's all I was going to give him. He asked again and I told him that I didn't have any more for him. He took his head out of the window and started walking away, at which point the girls told me and the other guy to walk our friend to her door, which we did as the guy walked away.

There was no problem, but it still made us all uncomfortable. I was glad that I was carrying, just in case. (But then again, 2 dudes against a coked out guy wouldn't be much of a fight, so it most likely wouldn't have been necessary. (Except the other dude was kind of drunk, which wouldn't have been too helpful.))

What would each of you have done in this situation?

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EM87 wrote:

Thanks, Veritas. Those words bring a sense of perspective that I'm sure many will appreciate, including me.

Story time.

Last night I was with a few friends coming back from a party. It may have been about 3am or so. There were five of us in the car: myself in the front passenger seat, the girl I'm dating was driving, and in the back were two girls and a guy. We were dropping off one of the girls at her place (a rather nice apartment complex in a good part of town). She had just gotten out of the car and about 10 seconds later came walking back with a weird look on her face. She just stood there by the window (which was being rolled down so we could talk to her) and I was wondering what she was doing for a second until I saw what was up. Some guy had just followed her to the car and was pressing us for money. The window was still down so he stuck his head all the way in and was saying that we should all give him money. He looked pretty coked out, and keep in mind that it's 3am in a good neighborhood, and people like this don't usually come around here. With his head in the window right in front of my girlfriend, I went into protector mode and unbuckled so I could draw if I had to, while reaching towards my wallet/gun on my right side (that he couldn't see). While everyone else told him they had nothing for him, I reached past my gun and grabbed my wallet out of my back pocket. I gave him a dollar and told him that's all I was going to give him. He asked again and I told him that I didn't have any more for him. He took his head out of the window and started walking away, at which point the girls told me and the other guy to walk our friend to her door, which we did as the guy walked away.

There was no problem, but it still made us all uncomfortable. I was glad that I was carrying, just in case. (But then again, 2 dudes against a coked out guy wouldn't be much of a fight, so it most likely wouldn't have been necessary. (Except the other dude was kind of drunk, which wouldn't have been too helpful.))

What would each of you have done in this situation?

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Which window of the car did the dropped off girl stand in front of?

Which window of the car did the guy asking for money stick his head in?

Was anyone else in the car armed? With what?

What amount of drinking or drugs had each of the 5 in your group done?

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HankT wrote:

Which window of the car did the dropped off girl stand in front of?

Which window of the car did the guy asking for money stick his head in?

Was anyone else in the car armed? With what?

What amount of drinking or drugs had each of the 5 in your group done?

Click to expand...

1) She stood outside the driver's door.

2) He stuck his head in the driver's window.

3) Nobody else was armed.

4) The girl that was dropped off had not had anything to drink. Neither had myself or the driver. I can only guess at how much they'd had to drink, but the other two in the back were drunk, but without loss of balance or cognitive reasoning as far as I could tell. We don't do drugs.

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EM87 wrote:

HankT wrote:

Which window of the car did the dropped off girl stand in front of?

Which window of the car did the guy asking for money stick his head in?

Was anyone else in the car armed? With what?

What amount of drinking or drugs had each of the 5 in your group done?

Click to expand...

1) She stood outside the driver's door.

2) He stuck his head in the driver's window.

3) Nobody else was armed.

4) The girl that was dropped off had not had anything to drink. Neither had myself or the driver. I can only guess at how much they'd had to drink, but the other two in the back were drunk, but without loss of balance or cognitive reasoning as far as I could tell. We don't do drugs.

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I would have given the guy a buck, sent him on his way and walked the girl to her door.

In the situation you described, Iwouldn't have gone into "protector mode"if that involves anythingabout a gun. Too late for that. The gun is pretty useless, given that his head was already in the car and in your date's face. He's already been acceptedas a non-threatening pan-handler.

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'Protector mode' has nothing to do with a gun. It's just that extra alertness that a person gets when a shady situation arises, as in this case. I want to keep my girlfriend safe, as well as the people with me.