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Thread: OC/CC at Wegman's/Dulles Town Center Food Court info

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    The last couple of months there have been some discussions here and on the Virginia Hometown forum (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=352901) on AR-15.com about OC/CC at Wegman's and the Dulles Town Center Food Court due to the ABC-On Licenses. (For those who don't know, a fast food place call Frank&Stein at Dulles TC food court had a beer license)

    I contacted Va ABC and asked for clarification on this, since the Loudoun Commonwealth Attorney passed the buck to ABC (see kcobean's comment on the Arf.com thread).

    Here is the relevenat portion of the response:

    Regarding the Wegman's location, which holds a wine and beer on and off premises and mixed beverage license, the "Establishment Type" for the entire premises is that of a "Restaurant." Therefore, a customer could not carry a concealed weapon onto any portion of the licensed premises.

    Regarding the Frank & Stein location, I am to understand it is located in a food court within a mall. If the privileges of the license allow for the consumption of alcohol within any portion of the food court, a customer could not carry a concealed weapon into or within that food court. However, if the privileges of the license are restricted to a specific, well-defined area within the food court, the prohibition to carry a concealed weapon would apply only to that well-defined area. So long as no other ABC licensee was also operating within the food court, it is my opinion it would be legal for a customer to carry a concealed weapon within the "non-licensed" area of the food court.

    As you point out, it is legal, with a licensee's permission, for a customer to open carry onto the premises of a restaurant.

    By the way, the license for the Frank & Stein location was surrendered April 9, 2009.

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    hey thanks for that legwork - I had wondered about that with the presence of Frank n' Stein. Can we then assume that concealed is ok now that there are no other ABC licensees in DTC's food court? (or am I remembering incorrectly?)

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I know some people will be disappointed to see this but the law is clear enough on this matter.

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    bdodds wrote:
    hey thanks for that legwork - I had wondered about that with the presence of Frank n' Stein. Can we then assume that concealed is ok now that there are no other ABC licensees in DTC's food court? (or am I remembering incorrectly?)
    As far as I know, the only other places with an ABC license at Dulles TC are the self-enclosed restaurants, all of which are actually located outside the mall itself. I didn't find anything in the ABC database. The SAC I communicated with indicated that the alcohol areas had to be designated (posted), so just look for "no alcohol beyond this point" signs. They should be the borders of the designated area.


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    Yes, i've noticed those signs before and they seem to designate the entire food court as the area. Is this still the case if there are no ABC licensees present? Or do we have to wait until someone gets around to taking down the signs before we can carry concealed again?

    edit: i don't mean to pepper you with the questions, i'm more wondering aloud - maybe it's something we'd want to follow up on.

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    Red...



    Awesome work. thank you for taking the time to research the issue!



    - J

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    Lone Star Veteran Hokie's Avatar
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    CC in the Reston Harris Teeter Inc is a no no as they are a "restaurant" with Wine and Beer On and Off Premises/Keg Permit permit.
    http://www.abc.state.va.us/licenseeS...;license=51463
    "Capitalism and communism stand at opposite poles. Their essential difference is this: The communist, seeing the rich man and his fine home, says: 'No man should have so much.' The capitalist, seeing the same thing, says: 'All men should have as much.'"- Phelps Adams

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    Just goes to show how damned stupid Tim Kaine is and the morons that voted against concealed carry in "Restaurants"

    Idiots, all of them.

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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    Just going into the local grocery store if you conceal you could be arrested! That is ridiculous What a bunch of idiots

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    CRF250rider1000 wrote:
    Just going into the local grocery store if you conceal you could be arrested! That is ridiculous What a bunch of idiots
    guns and alcohol don't mix bro!

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    Hokie wrote:
    CC in the Reston Harris Teeter Inc is a no no as they are a "restaurant" with Wine and Beer On and Off Premises/Keg Permit permit.
    http://www.abc.state.va.us/licenseeS...;license=51463
    At least the ones in McLean, Falls Church, and Herndon don't. They only have Off licenses.

    What I found as news to me was the number of places you don't think of as restaurants who have a restaurant On license. Places like bowling alleys, golf courses/country clubs, retirement communities! (I guess restaurants/cafeterias?), and the shocker to me, the North Hall of the Dulles Expo Center:

    http://www.abc.state.va.us/licenseeS...;license=26270

    This is not where the gun show is held; that's in South Hall. I was actually planning to go in the North Hall this weekend to look at the currency show. OC only if you go (which is not usually a problem with most folks on this board :P ).

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    RedKnightt wrote:
    Regarding the Wegman's location, which holds a wine and beer on and off premises and mixed beverage license, the "Establishment Type" for the entire premises is that of a "Restaurant." Therefore, a customer could not carry a concealed weapon onto any portion of the licensed premises.
    Well.. that's what lawyers are for. First.. I OC anyway. Second, if I did want to CC I would have no problem doing it in Wegmans. I read the law too.. and the way I intepret it is different that the Kaine loving ABC guy quoted above. Can you go to the Wegmans at Dulles and buy a slice of Pizza and a glass of wine? I don't think so. So I intepret that as to not serving alcohol. IANAL YMMV.

    - - - -

    From: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Sent: 5/9/2008 11:19:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: RE: WEGMANS?

    No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia.


    Donna K. Tate, Manager

    Firearms Transaction Center

    Virginia Department of State Police
    Tel: (804) 674-2210
    Fax: (804) 674-2791
    Email: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Website:http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

    Carry On.

    Ed

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    ed wrote:
    RedKnightt wrote:
    Regarding the Wegman's location, which holds a wine and beer on and off premises and mixed beverage license, the "Establishment Type" for the entire premises is that of a "Restaurant." Therefore, a customer could not carry a concealed weapon onto any portion of the licensed premises.
    Well.. that's what lawyers are for. First.. I OC anyway. Second, if I did want to CC I would have no problem doing it in Wegmans. I read the law too.. and the way I intepret it is different that the Kaine loving ABC guy quoted above. Can you go to the Wegmans at Dulles and buy a slice of Pizza and a glass of wine? I don't think so. So I intepret that as to not serving alcohol. IANAL YMMV.

    - - - -

    From: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Sent: 5/9/2008 11:19:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: RE: WEGMANS?

    No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia.


    Donna K. Tate, Manager

    Firearms Transaction Center

    Virginia Department of State Police
    Tel: (804) 674-2210
    Fax: (804) 674-2791
    Email: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Website:http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
    Wegmans does sell beverages for on premise consumption. You can, in fact have a glass of wine (I think it is beer they sell) and a slice of pie.

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    hsmith wrote:
    ed wrote:
    RedKnightt wrote:
    Regarding the Wegman's location, which holds a wine and beer on and off premises and mixed beverage license, the "Establishment Type" for the entire premises is that of a "Restaurant." Therefore, a customer could not carry a concealed weapon onto any portion of the licensed premises.
    Well.. that's what lawyers are for. First.. I OC anyway. Second, if I did want to CC I would have no problem doing it in Wegmans. I read the law too.. and the way I intepret it is different that the Kaine loving ABC guy quoted above. Can you go to the Wegmans at Dulles and buy a slice of Pizza and a glass of wine? I don't think so. So I intepret that as to not serving alcohol. IANAL YMMV.

    - - - -

    From: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Sent: 5/9/2008 11:19:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: RE: WEGMANS?

    No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia.


    Donna K. Tate, Manager

    Firearms Transaction Center

    Virginia Department of State Police
    Tel: (804) 674-2210
    Fax: (804) 674-2791
    Email: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Website:http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
    Wegmans does sell beverages for on premise consumption. You can, in fact have a glass of wine (I think it is beer they sell) and a slice of pie.
    I believe they have that food court upstairs right?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    seating is upstairs.. all the food, etc is on the first level.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    ed wrote:
    Well.. that's what lawyers are for. First.. I OC anyway. Second, if I did want to CC I would have no problem doing it in Wegmans. I read the law too.. and the way I intepret it is different that the Kaine loving ABC guy quoted above. Can you go to the Wegmans at Dulles and buy a slice of Pizza and a glass of wine? I don't think so. So I intepret that as to not serving alcohol. IANAL YMMV.

    - - - -

    From: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Sent: 5/9/2008 11:19:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: RE: WEGMANS?

    No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia.


    Donna K. Tate, Manager

    Firearms Transaction Center

    Virginia Department of State Police
    Tel: (804) 674-2210
    Fax: (804) 674-2791
    Email: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Website:http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
    Isn't that a little harsh, Ed? There's nothing to indicate this guy's politics. This seems to be a fairly straightforward reading of the law. The code sections says you can't carry on any premises which has a license to sell/serve. The licensee doesn't have to be serving; they just have to have the license.

    They (the ABC) don't have a different class of license for grocery stores who offer wine tasting, etc, they just seem to use a restaurant license, since the stores have a food court. It's probably not something they ever considered.



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    ed wrote:
    seating is upstairs.. all the food, etc is on the first level.
    Is the upstairs posted that you can't remove alcohol from the level? If so, that would be the end of the "designated consumption area" and therefore the area where CC is verboten. Using the same logic that the ABC SAC gave for the Dulles TC food court, once you're past the border of the consumption area, you're good to CC.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    RedKnightt wrote:
    ed wrote:
    Well.. that's what lawyers are for. First.. I OC anyway. Second, if I did want to CC I would have no problem doing it in Wegmans. I read the law too.. and the way I intepret it is different that the Kaine loving ABC guy quoted above. Can you go to the Wegmans at Dulles and buy a slice of Pizza and a glass of wine? I don't think so. So I intepret that as to not serving alcohol. IANAL YMMV.

    - - - -

    From: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Sent: 5/9/2008 11:19:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: RE: WEGMANS?

    No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia.


    Donna K. Tate, Manager

    Firearms Transaction Center

    Virginia Department of State Police
    Tel: (804) 674-2210
    Fax: (804) 674-2791
    Email: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
    Website:http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
    Isn't that a little harsh, Ed? There's nothing to indicate this guy's politics. This seems to be a fairly straightforward reading of the law. The code sections says you can't carry on any premises which has a license to sell/serve. The licensee doesn't have to be serving; they just have to have the license.

    They (the ABC) don't have a different class of license for grocery stores who offer wine tasting, etc, they just seem to use a restaurant license, since the stores have a food court. It's probably not something they ever considered.
    Yeah.. maybe it was. I OC anyway. I don't drink either. It's just dumb that we have to worry one way or the other.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    ed wrote:
    Yeah.. maybe it was. I OC anyway. I don't drink either. It's just dumb that we have to worry one way or the other.
    I totally agree. It's a rare year that I have even one alcoholic beverage. It's truly dumb that our choice to CC is taken away just because others may want to enjoy a drink. I'd offer the arguments and evidence where other states allow CC and alcohol and seem to avoid daily bar shootings, but I know I'm preaching to the choir on this forum. :P

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    I wouldn't even bother putting 1 penny into Wegman's coffers just for the fact that they donate to the gun grabs (b.s. buy backs) in Western New York. Not the best place to waste your money. Hell I'd rather buy the standard rotten meat from slime lion than contribute to forwarding Wegman's political desires. They have been a major contributor to the anti-rights movement from Buffalo to Syracuse for as long as I can remember. The best thing that could happen to that company is complete failure. I can almost guarantee that they applied for a full restaurant ABC licensee just because they know it causes problems for carriers.

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    Toad wrote:
    <snip> I can almost guarantee that they applied for a full restaurant ABC licensee just because they know it causes problems for carriers.
    What other kind of license would they have applied for?

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    I doubt it even crossed their mind, to be honest. They have a large wine section and at the back of the store have tastings there frequently, so I'm sure that's what the restaurant class license covers. I don't know that any alcohol is available at the front with the food to eat there, nor have i ever noticed any signs, but that's not to say that doesn't exist also. I can only first-hand confirm that they will give out wine samples at the back wine area. So there you have it.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    Wegmans does sell beverages for on premise consumption. You can, in fact have a glass of wine (I think it is beer they sell) and a slice of pie.
    They might sell beverages.. but not Beer and Wine (for on premis consumption). I asked a manager today when I was at lunch to confirm.

    Ed

    Carry On.

    Ed

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    hsmith wrote:
    Just goes to show how damned stupid Tim Kaine is and the morons that voted against concealed carry in "Restaurants"

    Idiots, all of them.
    agree and kaine is king!
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  25. #25
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    ed wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    Wegmans does sell beverages for on premise consumption. You can, in fact have a glass of wine (I think it is beer they sell) and a slice of pie.
    They might sell beverages.. but not Beer and Wine (for on premis consumption). I asked a manager today when I was at lunch to confirm.

    Ed
    Don't know if it's considered ABC On, but Wegman's does in fact do wine tasting on premises.

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