Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: ATF multiple purchases form

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    So I know dealers are required to report multiple handgun sales to the ATF. My question is this: what authority does the ATF have in this regard? Can they legally demand to see the firearms?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    LaConner, Washington, USA
    Posts
    649

    Post imported post

    I haven't heard of this but it seems it would be easy to circumvent: just buy the guns from different dealers. But seriously, have you seen any reference to federal law supporting this alleged requirement? Unless they can demonstrate that one exists I would discount it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Yakima County, ,
    Posts
    506

    Post imported post

    Did you read about this in a news article from another state?

    From what I know, the ATF knows about each handgun sale anyway, whether or not there is a state or federal law that requires it.

    Does anyone here seriously think those NICS forms you fill out when you buy a gun don't end up in a database somewhere? (They spied on freakin' church groups for not thinking the Iraq war was a good idea. Sent actual AGENTS to spy on old ladies for not agreeing with the then-present administrations foreign policy- you seriously think they're not already keeping track of you?)

    The federal government has never been bound by federal law, whether you would use the Clinton or Bush administrations (or both!) as the example; they don't have to follow it.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    LaConner, Washington, USA
    Posts
    649

    Post imported post

    cynicist wrote:
    Did you read about this in a news article from another state?

    From what I know, the ATF knows about each handgun sale anyway, whether or not there is a state or federal law that requires it.

    Does anyone here seriously think those NICS forms you fill out when you buy a gun don't end up in a database somewhere? (They spied on freakin' church groups for not thinking the Iraq war was a good idea. Sent actual AGENTS to spy on old ladies for not agreeing with the then-present administrations foreign policy- you seriously think they're not already keeping track of you?)

    The federal government has never been bound by federal law, whether you would use the Clinton or Bush administrations (or both!) as the example; they don't have to follow it.
    Point is well made. The forms have convinced some otherwise well-informed people that there is in fact a national gun registry because they believe that the purpose of the form is not just for the background check but to register the firearm. Well, no, there isn't any line on the form for thatkind of detailbut at the very minimum they know whether you're buying a "handgun" or a "long gun" because the dealer has to answer that questionwhen they call in the BG check. So they must think I'm some kind of right-wing extremist gun nut because I've bought three handguns since election night. :celebrate

  5. #5
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lebanon, VA
    Posts
    676

    Post imported post

    18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(3)(A) requires FFLs to complete the multiple handgun transfer report section of Form 4473 when that FFL transfers more than one handgun to a single person within a 5 business day period (defined by the FFL's business days).

    18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(3)(B) requires state and local law-enforcement agencies that receive copies of these reports to destroy them within 20 days if the transferee is not prohibited by law from possessing or receiving firearms and to certify compliance to the Attorney General once every 6 months.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    LaConner, Washington, USA
    Posts
    649

    Post imported post

    WVCDL wrote:
    18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(3)(A) requires FFLs to complete the multiple handgun transfer report section of Form 4473 when that FFL transfers more than one handgun to a single person within a 5 business day period (defined by the FFL's business days).

    18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(3)(B) requires state and local law-enforcement agencies that receive copies of these reports to destroy them within 20 days if the transferee is not prohibited by law from possessing or receiving firearms and to certify compliance to the Attorney General once every 6 months.
    WV, thanx for the research on that. I was just too lazy to go look it up for myself (Actually I'm BZ planning my trip to Phoenix for the NRA convention )

    This does confirm my thought that one could buy one gun from a dealer then go across the street and buy another one. The two dealers don't need to know about each other's transactions. (Unless there's a question on the form about other purchases, which would blow the whole thing) That's a bit of a hassle but it avoids this stupid requirement.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, USA
    Posts
    897

    Post imported post

    Thanks WVCDL, I just saw this thread. Also WA has a handgun sales form that has to be filled out for every handgun sold. So if you buy 3 pistols from one dealer in a 5 business day period you'll have 3 4473's 3 state pistol transfer forms and 1 federal multiple pistol transfer form. I think you can fit up to 5 pistols on the federal multiple pistol form.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Everett, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,339

    Post imported post

    sirpuma wrote:
    Thanks WVCDL, I just saw this thread. Also WA has a handgun sales form that has to be filled out for every handgun sold. So if you buy 3 pistols from one dealer in a 5 business day period you'll have 3 4473's 3 state pistol transfer forms and 1 federal multiple pistol transfer form. I think you can fit up to 5 pistols on the federal multiple pistol form.
    Is it 5 days because of the waiting period? What if you have a CPL and purchase 3 in 5 days?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    Here's the thing. I'm graduating college in a couple of weeks, and my father might be giving me two handguns.

    He lives in Texas, so a FTF transfer would be illegal. I don't want the ATF knocking at my door over this. I've heard on other forums that they tend not to care, but that sometimes they actually do follow up with the owner.

    I was just curious if I can legally tell them to buzz off and leave me alone.

    EDIT: There's really only one dealer in my area.

  10. #10
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Olympia, WA, ,
    Posts
    3,201

    Post imported post

    I think there are exceptions for transfers between direct family members.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Lakewood, Washington, USA
    Posts
    305

    Post imported post

    joeroket wrote:
    sirpuma wrote:
    Thanks WVCDL, I just saw this thread. Also WA has a handgun sales form that has to be filled out for every handgun sold. So if you buy 3 pistols from one dealer in a 5 business day period you'll have 3 4473's 3 state pistol transfer forms and 1 federal multiple pistol transfer form. I think you can fit up to 5 pistols on the federal multiple pistol form.
    Is it 5 days because of the waiting period? What if you have a CPL and purchase 3 in 5 days?

    My FFL wanted me to wait 3 more days so he didn't have to fill out the form since I had a transfer 2 days earlier and another gun came in sooner than I had expected.CPL won't matter you still have FMPTF.






  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I think there are exceptions for transfers between direct family members.
    Federal law unfortunately makes no exceptions. No interstate transfers of handguns without a dealer, period.

    As for the ATF form, there's no exception to that either that I know of.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, USA
    Posts
    897

    Post imported post

    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    Here's the thing. I'm graduating college in a couple of weeks, and my father might be giving me two handguns.

    He lives in Texas, so a FTF transfer would be illegal. I don't want the ATF knocking at my door over this. I've heard on other forums that they tend not to care, but that sometimes they actually do follow up with the owner.

    I was just curious if I can legally tell them to buzz off and leave me alone.

    EDIT: There's really only one dealer in my area.
    No, if he was SELLING you the pistols, a FTF transfer would be illegal. However, if he's GIFTING them to you a FTF would be ok. The ATF and all these laws covers Interstate Commerce. A gift is not commerce.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, USA
    Posts
    897

    Post imported post

    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I think there are exceptions for transfers between direct family members.
    Federal law unfortunately makes no exceptions. No interstate transfers of handguns without a dealer, period.

    As for the ATF form, there's no exception to that either that I know of.
    That's if you're shipping them. If you two go meet somewhere and he just gives them to you, then it's not a sale. A gift is treated different the FFL would only be needed if he shipped them to you and the 5 days more than one pistol still applies.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    WTF I can't delete my duplicate post?

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    I'm 99% sure the ATF doesn't care if money exchanges hands. It's still an illegal transfer. Here's what their FAQ has to say:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2

    "From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back] A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes."

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    LaConner, Washington, USA
    Posts
    649

    Post imported post

    sirpuma wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I think there are exceptions for transfers between direct family members.
    Federal law unfortunately makes no exceptions. No interstate transfers of handguns without a dealer, period.

    As for the ATF form, there's no exception to that either that I know of.
    That's if you're shipping them. If you two go meet somewhere and he just gives them to you, then it's not a sale. A gift is treated different the FFL would only be needed if he shipped them to you and the 5 days more than one pistol still applies.
    Here's a scenario for you, and I'm most interested to hear the answer:

    My son was transferred from WA to CA and he left his pistol with me for safekeeping. Now he decides he wants it down there, so I drive it down to Portland and deliver it to his sister. She will then take it to him in CA, making sure that it's locked in the trunk of her car to comply with CA law. So the question is this: even though my son is legally the owner of the weapon,wouldFederal law deem these two transfers to be illegal? Note that there has been no consideration given in either transfer because the two carriers (me and my daughter) are constructively no more than agents for the lawful owner. But would the Feds see it that way, and consider only the issue of constructive possession?

    I've been puzzling over this for several weeks.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    Richard6218 wrote:
    sirpuma wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I think there are exceptions for transfers between direct family members.
    Federal law unfortunately makes no exceptions. No interstate transfers of handguns without a dealer, period.

    As for the ATF form, there's no exception to that either that I know of.
    That's if you're shipping them. If you two go meet somewhere and he just gives them to you, then it's not a sale. A gift is treated different the FFL would only be needed if he shipped them to you and the 5 days more than one pistol still applies.
    Here's a scenario for you, and I'm most interested to hear the answer:

    My son was transferred from WA to CA and he left his pistol with me for safekeeping. Now he decides he wants it down there, so I drive it down to Portland and deliver it to his sister. She will then take it to him in CA, making sure that it's locked in the trunk of her car to comply with CA law. So the question is this: even though my son is legally the owner of the weapon,wouldFederal law deem these two transfers to be illegal? Note that there has been no consideration given in either transfer because the two carriers (me and my daughter) are constructively no more than agents for the lawful owner. But would the Feds see it that way, and consider only the issue of constructive possession?

    I've been puzzling over this for several weeks.
    I would think since he's the actual owner of the pistol, you should be fine. I'd be more worried about CA law than Federal law.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    LaConner, Washington, USA
    Posts
    649

    Post imported post

    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    Richard6218 wrote:
    sirpuma wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I think there are exceptions for transfers between direct family members.
    Federal law unfortunately makes no exceptions. No interstate transfers of handguns without a dealer, period.

    As for the ATF form, there's no exception to that either that I know of.
    That's if you're shipping them. If you two go meet somewhere and he just gives them to you, then it's not a sale. A gift is treated different the FFL would only be needed if he shipped them to you and the 5 days more than one pistol still applies.
    Here's a scenario for you, and I'm most interested to hear the answer:

    My son was transferred from WA to CA and he left his pistol with me for safekeeping. Now he decides he wants it down there, so I drive it down to Portland and deliver it to his sister. She will then take it to him in CA, making sure that it's locked in the trunk of her car to comply with CA law. So the question is this: even though my son is legally the owner of the weapon,wouldFederal law deem these two transfers to be illegal? Note that there has been no consideration given in either transfer because the two carriers (me and my daughter) are constructively no more than agents for the lawful owner. But would the Feds see it that way, and consider only the issue of constructive possession?

    I've been puzzling over this for several weeks.
    I would think since he's the actual owner of the pistol, you should be fine. I'd be more worried about CA law than Federal law.
    Thanks for that. I have already gone to the California board and asked questions about their law and the greatest concern seems to be about what is considered "concealed". We have solved that by putting a cable lock on the pistol and keeping it in the trunk. And she won't be in possession of any ammo or magazines, so she should be ok as to CA law. I have a couple guys on the California board to thank for guidance on that.

  20. #20
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Auburn, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,558

    Post imported post

    Richard6218 wrote:
    Thanks for that. I have already gone to the California board and asked questions about their law and the greatest concern seems to be about what is considered "concealed". We have solved that by putting a cable lock on the pistol and keeping it in the trunk. And she won't be in possession of any ammo or magazines, so she should be ok as to CA law. I have a couple guys on the California board to thank for guidance on that.
    Also, I would suggest putting it in a sealed package addressed to him. That way it's very apparent who the owner is and that she is only a "carrier" as a UPS or FedEx truck driver would be.

    IANAL.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Elma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    54

    Post imported post

    Indeed, I seem to remember a supreme court case that found that a felon was not in possesion of a firearm when he delivered it to a gunshop because it was in a sealed package and he did not know what was inside of it. So I would tag along with above and make sure in addition to the lock is it inside a sealed box addressed to him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    19

    Post imported post

    To all who may be interested:

    Two main questions have been asked in this thread: One re ATF (now BATFE) Forms and the other re interstate transfers.

    The NICS background check is to determine whether the person receiving the firearm is legally allowed to do so. As was noted in a previous post, the only information given to NICS about the guns being purchased at any one time is the "general" type of firearm: handgun, long gun or "other" (frame/receiver). All three types can be included on the same 4473, in addition to the information about the buyer on the first page of the form.

    The ATF 4473 is a federal form, which does have space for listing the make, model, s/n & caliber of each gun/receiver sold on that one form. Many guns can be listed on one form by use of an attachment sheet. The FFL dealer must keep that form and his log book entry for the gun(s) on file for 20 years. If the business is sold, the 4473 files can stay with the new owner. If the business is closed (no successor takes over), the 4473s and the dealer's record book are supposed to be sent to the ATF records center in WV.

    The ATF multiple sale form is required ONLY when a dealer (FFL holder) transfers more than one handgun to the same person within five business days. If the transferee wants to wait more than five days before taking delivery of a second handgun, the multiple form is not required. The original of the ATF multiple sales form is sent by the dealer to the ATF records center in WV. The dealer keeps a copy of that form for 5 years and one copy is sent to the LEO agency who receives the WA state handgun purchase application form.

    If a transferee does not want his name reported directly to ATF, the only way to avoid having to do that is to ask the dealer to hold the additional handgun(s) and make another trip after five business days have passed. One would have to ask the dealer if that would be ok...it would require a separate 4473 for each additional handgun; a separate state form is already required for each individual handgun.

    To the best of my knowledge, federal agents do NOT come to the homes of people who are listed on multiple purchase reports to look at the guns. If guns are traced by law enforcement, it is possible that the last legal owner might receive a phone call or visit as part of an investigation to determine how guns might have wound up in the wrong hands, etc--but that would likely happen regardless of any multiple sale report.

    The reason for the multiple sale report I think is to help the government identify straw buyers who knowingly buy guns from legal dealers to transfer to their friends or relatives who are NOT legally qualified to have guns. Those straw buyers need to be prosecuted & punished by the feds, imo, because they are breaking the law, supplying guns to thugs and giving law-abiding gun owners a bad name to the anti-gun media & politicians. (Personal opinion.) NOTE: A person who buys a gun to GIVE to a friend or relative (legally qualified to have guns) is NOT a straw buyer.

    Interstate transfers between family members (two separate legal owners) are covered by the 1968 Gun Control Act & subsequent revisions. You can look up the regs online at the BATFE website under US Dept of justice. Interstate handgun transfers must go thru an FFL regardless of whether the gun is a gift or paid for. The only exception is a transfer due to inheritance--when one owner has died and under the decedent's will his/her handguns are bequeathed to someone in another state.

    If a legal owner moves to another state, depending on where, he may take his guns with him, or have them shipped to himself at the new address. This is NOT an "interstate transfer" & as long as the gun is legal to possess in both states there is no violation of federal law. But if the new state is like IL, NY et al requiring licenses or permits to possess firearms, guns can NOT be "taken with" or "shipped to" until the owner is in compliance with the new state law. It is possible that FFL services may be required to receive the guns in such new state.

    I hope the above information will be helpful.


  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    Awesome post! Thanks for clearing that up! Very informative.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    19

    Post imported post

    Thanx for kind words. There are some other points I should perhaps note: Per the federal regulations, an unlicensed person (legal owner who is not an FFL or C&R) may ship a firearm TO an FFL in another state "for any lawful purpose." That would include repair, customizing, or lawful transfer to another legally-qualified person.

    This correlates to the intent of Congress when it passed the 1968 Gun Control Act, in that the purpose of the law was not to hamper interstate commerce in arms, but to ensure that firearms coming into a state are transferred in accordance with the laws of THAT state.

    Some FFLs in various states may have a policy that they will only receive firearms shipped BY an FFL, but that is NOT a legal requirement of the federal regulations.

    The result of the law as it stands today is that handguns may be transferred over-the counter ONLY in the state where the transferee resides. Long guns are different. If allowed in the buyer's home state and the state where the dealer is located, a resident of a given state may purchase/receive a long gun over-the-counter in another state.

    As to shipping, long guns may be shipped via the Postal Service. Handguns, however, must have an FFL on both ends (postal regulations). The major common carriers (FedEx and UPS) require that handguns go by air (due to too many thefts by employees). The cost is high, and not all employees of those companies may know the requirements, so I suggest looking up the company rules as to what type of air service is allowed--may not have to be the most expensive--one major distributor used UPS second-day air. Long guns can go by ground shipment via either firm.

    All the above info is in the federal regulations as mentioned in my previous post.







  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    390

    Post imported post

    Thanks again. I've had plenty of experience with that particular rule, as I live near the Idaho/Washington border, and every time I go to Idaho, I can only look at all the nice handguns they have.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •