Second Richmond city shooting

kenny · Apr 23, 2009

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http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/EASTGAT23_20090423-001004/263146/

By Staff Reports

Published: April 23, 2009
Richmond police say they have arrested the man who fatally shot another man trying to break into an auto in the 2100 block of East Leigh Street about 4:30 p.m. on Wednesday.
They have charged Eric G. Driver, Jr., 25, of the 500 block of North 22nd St., with second degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony, police said.
Police identified the dead man as Jamal Holman, 24, who was taken to VCU Medical Center, where he expired.
Holman "had broken into a vehicle" and Driver confronted him, police spokesman James Mercante said in a release. This "led to an altercation resulting in the shooting of Holman," Mercante said.
Victims' advocate Alicia Rasin, who lives in the area, said she heard the gunshots and thought it was a car backfiring.
"It was very shocking for me to drive up on it, to see somebody lying there," she said.
Rasin said it was the first time someone has been killed in the area in the more than 50 years that she has been living there.
"It's peaceful. The neighbors get along with each other," Rasin said. "This was very shocking but very sad. I don't know what happened, but I feel as a Christian I still have to pray for that young man, pray for them all."

essayons · Apr 23, 2009

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This could be interesting

essayons · Apr 23, 2009

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I really hope that there is something missing from this story, because the facts so far would indicate it as a pretty cut-and-dried case of self-defense

Skeptic · Apr 23, 2009

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essayons wrote:

I really hope that there is something missing from this story, because the facts so far would indicate it as a pretty cut-and-dried case of self-defense

I have heard that the robber was unarmed, so obviously the facts may still be in doubt I guess.

Let me preface this with the obligatory IANAL, this is just my understanding from my firearms classes.

If the robber is unarmed and it was just a confrontation between two men on public property, if the shooter was the one who escalated to deadly force then he was not likely to have gotten a pass on it.

OTOH, wow, second degree MURDER? That makes it sound like he just went up and shot the guy.

Of course, in Texas he may have been within his rights to do that, I am not sure. But probably not here in the Commonwealth, and especially not in the city.

kenny · Apr 23, 2009

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NBC12 reporting the shooter is a VCU student.

http://www.nbc12.com/global/story.asp?s=10231572

T Dubya · Apr 23, 2009

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I wonder if the shooter kept his mouth shut until he got a lawyer. No doubt the Mayor and the Commonwealth's Attorney had a heavy hand in the charge. I predict a huge backlash on this.

wylde007 · Apr 23, 2009

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Skeptic wrote:

I have heard that the robber was unarmed, so obviously the facts may still be in doubt I guess.

hlh wrote:

Witnesses say Eric Driver, 25, came out of his home to find his girlfriend being held at gunpoint by a masked thief who was attempting to break into her car.

Skeptic · Apr 23, 2009

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wylde007 wrote:

Skeptic wrote:

I have heard that the robber was unarmed, so obviously the facts may still be in doubt I guess.

Click to expand...

hlh wrote:

Witnesses say Eric Driver, 25, came out of his home to find his girlfriend being held at gunpoint by a masked thief who was attempting to break into her car.

Click to expand...

That is why I say in doubt.

The guy on the radio this AM said the robber was unarmed. WRIC says "It's unsure if Holman had a weapon on him at the time."

WTVR is even a little less clear. They say witnesses say that Eric Driver told police that he (Driver) thought the robber had a gun, and they say that he shot at the robber as he was running away.

Media reports on stuff like this tend to be incomplete and in conflict, which is why I am surprised they think they have such a clear vision in this case that they have already charged with second degree murder.

wylde007 · Apr 23, 2009

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Skeptic wrote:

WTVR is even a little less clear. They say witnesses say that Eric Driver told police that he (Driver) thought the robber had a gun, and they say that he shot at the robber as he was running away.

If this is true he is doomed.

You cannot shoot someone actively retreating or fleeing. Ever. Especially in public.

In your own home you MIGHT get away with it (the entry/exit wounds will tell the story, so be DAMN SURE you're in the right) but you'll never get it with a perp fleeing down the street.

mercutio545 · Apr 23, 2009

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wylde007 wrote:

Skeptic wrote:

WTVR is even a little less clear. They say witnesses say that Eric Driver told police that he (Driver) thought the robber had a gun, and they say that he shot at the robber as he was running away.

Click to expand...

If this is true he is doomed.

You cannot shoot someone actively retreating or fleeing. Ever. Especially in public.

In your own home you MIGHT get away with it (the entry/exit wounds will tell the story, so be DAMN SURE you're in the right) but you'll never get it with a perp fleeing down the street.

This same kind of thing happened (robber shot in the back) when a Baskin-Robbins in Richmond was robbed.

http://www.wtvr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7039220

I think there was a discussion on here about it, and the argument was if the robber was still a threat to others while fleeing.

Skeptic · Apr 23, 2009

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mercutio545 wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

Skeptic wrote:

WTVR is even a little less clear. They say witnesses say that Eric Driver told police that he (Driver) thought the robber had a gun, and they say that he shot at the robber as he was running away.

Click to expand...

If this is true he is doomed.

You cannot shoot someone actively retreating or fleeing. Ever. Especially in public.

In your own home you MIGHT get away with it (the entry/exit wounds will tell the story, so be DAMN SURE you're in the right) but you'll never get it with a perp fleeing down the street.

Click to expand...

This same kind of thing happened (robber shot in the back) when a Baskin-Robbins in Richmond was robbed.

http://www.wtvr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7039220

I think there was a discussion on here about it, and the argument was if the robber was still a threat to others while fleeing.

True but that robber was apparently armed - turned out to be a pellet gun IIRC. If this robber was not armed, well; the grand jury may feel differently.

I feel for the kid who shot. There is not a lot of time too make a decision like this, and it came on the heels of a really BAD dude with a knife being taken down by the cops at VCU. If his gf really was at risk at all, then even more adrenaline comes into play.

mercutio545 · Apr 23, 2009

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Skeptic wrote:

mercutio545 wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

Skeptic wrote:

WTVR is even a little less clear. They say witnesses say that Eric Driver told police that he (Driver) thought the robber had a gun, and they say that he shot at the robber as he was running away.

Click to expand...

If this is true he is doomed.

You cannot shoot someone actively retreating or fleeing. Ever. Especially in public.

In your own home you MIGHT get away with it (the entry/exit wounds will tell the story, so be DAMN SURE you're in the right) but you'll never get it with a perp fleeing down the street.

Click to expand...

This same kind of thing happened (robber shot in the back) when a Baskin-Robbins in Richmond was robbed.

http://www.wtvr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7039220

I think there was a discussion on here about it, and the argument was if the robber was still a threat to others while fleeing.

Click to expand...

True but that robber was apparently armed - turned out to be a pellet gun IIRC. If this robber was not armed, well; the grand jury may feel differently.

I feel for the kid who shot. There is not a lot of time too make a decision like this, and it came on the heels of a really BAD dude with a knife being taken down by the cops at VCU. If his gf really was at risk at all, then even more adrenaline comes into play.

Yeah, he had a pellet gun. I feel for the guy too. Emotions definitely come into play when someone you care about is in danger. Hopefully more information will be released soon.

MSC 45ACP · Apr 23, 2009

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I lived in Texas for 5 years. I believe "Criminal Mischief at Night"was the legal term usedwhen someone was breaking into your car or on your property between sunset and sunrise. It was a defense to prosecution if someone was vandalizing your vehicle, stealing your livestock or even being on your property if you had "Posted" signs around it. You could shoot them and not be charged. You still might have a civil case on your hands, but on Planet Texas, a jury of your peers usually consists of several gun owners. When I was transferred from Texas in 2003, 1 in 3 Texans was armed. The crime rate was at an all time low and "road rage" incidents were rare. I can't remember every hearing about any shootouts on I-45 or I-10 during rush hour.

wylde007 · Apr 23, 2009

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mercutio545 wrote:

Yeah, he had a pellet gun. I feel for the guy too. Emotions definitely come into play when someone you care about is in danger. Hopefully more information will be released soon.

Because you're going to stop and check when he approaches you.

Some pellet guns look more dangerous than 22s.

leprechaun117 · Apr 23, 2009

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wylde007 wrote:

mercutio545 wrote:

Yeah, he had a pellet gun. I feel for the guy too. Emotions definitely come into play when someone you care about is in danger. Hopefully more information will be released soon.

Click to expand...

Because you're going to stop and check when he approaches you.

Some pellet guns look more dangerous than 22s.

IIRC, the shooter at Baskin Robbins was acquitted of all charges.

What's going on in richmond lately, especially around VCU... 2 students shot on Goshen last year, all the robberies in Monroe Park, police shooting on Broad right across from Goshen. It's getting crazy over there.

mercutio545 · Apr 23, 2009

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leprechaun117 wrote:

What's going on in richmond lately, especially around VCU... 2 students shot on Goshen last year, all the robberies in Monroe Park, police shooting on Broad right across from Goshen. It's getting crazy over there.

Another reason why I'm glad to be graduating and getting the hell out of there! Unsecure area around campus, useless warning system, corrupt police chief who has a fondness for 14 year old girls, etc.

ProShooter · Apr 23, 2009

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Skeptic wrote:

Of course, in Texas he may have been within his rights to do that,

In Texas, the shooter could claim the HNK defense.

essayons · Apr 24, 2009

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Update from RTD: http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/EASTGAT23_20090423-001004/263146/

Richmond Police are keeping their mouth's shut on two critical points. Was the wannabe car-thief armed, and was he threatening the girlfriend. At the same time, they are calling the shooting an "over-reaction"

Authorities today declined to say whether a man shot and killed on East Leigh Street yesterday was armed.
Police say they arrested a Virginia Commonwealth University student and charged him with fatally shooting Jamall Holman of the 1700 block of Forest Glen Road in Henrico County as Holman was trying to break into a red Honda Civic that belonged to the student’s girlfriend.
Authorities charged Eric G. Driver, Jr., 25, of the 500 block of North 22nd Street with second-degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony in the shooting in the 2100 block of East Leigh Street about 4:30 p.m. yesterday.
Richmond Commonwealth’s Attorney Michael N. Herring said today that Driver was charged with second-degree murder instead of first-degree murder because the shooting was “more of an overreaction” than a premeditated killing.
Herring said it is illegal to use deadly force to protect property. “If someone’s stealing your property,“ Herring said, “call the police.“
Holman “had broken into a vehicle” and Driver confronted him, police spokesman James Mercante said in a release. This “led to an altercation resulting in the shooting of Holman,“ Mercante said. The girlfriend was present, but authorities declined to say whether she was in the car or being threatened.
Police would not say how many times Holman was shot or what weapon was used.
Driver is being held in the Richmond City Jail pending a bond hearing Monday.
Victims’ advocate Alicia Rasin, who lives in the area, said she heard the gunshots and thought it was a car backfiring.
“It was very shocking for me to drive up on it, to see somebody lying there,“ she said.
Rasin said it was the first time someone has been killed in the area in the more than 50 years that she has been living there.
“It’s peaceful. The neighbors get along with each other,“ Rasin said. “This was very shocking but very sad. I don’t know what happened, but I feel as a Christian I still have to pray for that young man, pray for them all.“
Anyone with information is asked to call the Richmond Police Tip Line at (804) 514-TIPS or Metro Richmond Crime Stoppers at (804) 780-1000.
(Staff writers Melodie Martin and Reed Williams contributed to this report.)

I think its safe to say most car thieves are armed with something, even if its nothing but a brick to break a window. And I feel for this guy, if I saw someone committing a criminal act against my girlfriend, I would shoot first and ask questions later.

wylde007 · Apr 24, 2009

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We should all call the tip line and offer a tidbit of advice:

He shot a criminal. One less criminal is now on the streets. He did your job because you either refused or were incapable at the time. Criminalizing his defense of life and property is in itself a crime and you only further empower criminals to enact crimes by defending them, rather than the victims.

TexasNative · Apr 24, 2009

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ProShooter wrote:

In Texas, the shooter could claim the HNK defense.

And that works mostly because Texans generally have a much broader definition of "varmint" than other folks.

Second Richmond city shooting

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