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Thread: OT: CC at BSU

  1. #1
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    I have to make the trip from Moscow to BSU to pick up a transcript from them in person because the registrar's office will not allow my father, to whom I have granted power of attorney just incase of something like this, to pick the thing up. And I cannot get my BroncoWeb Account to work again.

    Since I am not a student, therefor not under the regulation of the student codes, can I CC on campus when I get there? I have no desire to OC and risk a sheelpe stampede or BPD coming after me.

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    That is a good question. BSU currently has a strict policy against carrying of any kind on campus. Since the pre-emption law includes a specific exclusion for universities to set their own rules, I'm not sure if it would be illegal or just against policy. If you are a student, you can be expelled. If you are faculty or staff, you can be fired. If you are just a law-abiding citizen on school grounds... not sure. If you wish to go as far as to ask, the person you need to contact is Jon Uda, Executive Director of Campus Security/Police Services. 208-426-1307 or jonuda @ boisestate.edu (without the spaces).

    If you do speak with him, feel free to encourage a policy change :P

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    9Shooter wrote:
    BSU currently has a strict policy against carrying of any kind on campus.
    Is this policy in the student/employee handbook, or is it a written policy for all people on the premises?

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    I was told this is still the current text, and now that I read it again the consequence for general public would be trespass:

    http://www.boisestate.edu/policy/pol...edPremises.pdf

    Boise State University
    Effective Date: June 1, 2000
    BSU Policy #1080
    Revised: October 2007
    POSSESSION OF FIREARMS/WEAPONS
    ON UNIVERSITY OWNED OR CONTROLLED PREMISES
    Purpose:
    To establish policy for the regulation of the possession of firearms and weapons
    on university owned or controlled premises.
    Additional Authority:
    Department of Army Regulation §145-1
    United States Army Cadet Command Regulation §145-3
    Scope:
    Applies to all firearms and weapons on university owned or controlled premises.
    Responsible Party:
    Legal Counsel, 426-1491
    POLICY
    I.
    Policy Statement
    A safe and secure environment is a fundamental requirement for fulfilling
    the University’s mission of teaching, research, and public service. Boise
    State University is committed to maintaining an environment that is free of
    violence. This obligation includes eliminating recognized hazards from the
    campus community that contribute to violence or serious harm.
    II.
    Prohibition
    The possession, wearing, carrying, transporting, or use of a firearm or
    other dangerous weapon, incendiary device, or explosive is strictly
    forbidden on university owned or controlled premises or vehicles. This
    prohibition also extends to any person who may have acquired a
    government-issued permit or license. Violation of this regulation will result
    in disciplinary action and sanctions up to and including expulsion, in the
    case of students, or dismissal from employment, in the case of faculty and
    staff, or charges of trespass in the case of the public.
    III.
    Exceptions to the Prohibition
    The following firearms are excluded from this policy:
    1. A firearm in the possession of a full-time sworn peace officer. Among
    those not included in this exception are reserve officers, part-time
    employees, and private security guards;
    2. A firearm in the possession of a person who has received prior written
    authorization from the Director of Campus Security;
    3. Members of the ROTC training program, when so directed by a
    provision of the program.


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    First of all they would have to find out that you have it on you. There is no law against it, in Idaho its all the schools policy. The state preemption bill doesn't grant or take away any of their power to regulate they just think it gives them power. Its one of those it doesn't say they cant do it so they do.

    But after that don't they legally have to ask you to leave before you can be charged with trespassing?

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    Louie86 wrote:
    First of all they would have to find out that you have it on you. There is no law against it, in Idaho its all the schools policy. The state preemption bill doesn't grant or take away any of their power to regulate they just think it gives them power. Its one of those it doesn't say they cant do it so they do.

    But after that don't they legally have to ask you to leave before you can be charged with trespassing?
    Your first point is true.

    The law is written in such a way that it defines a school as anything below college level, and it is in the Idaho statutes, not just school policy. It is prohibited there all the time, with some exceptions (http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newi...d=180330002D.K). Colleges/universities are allowed to set their own policies which means it BSU (or others) chose to allow it, it would be legal to do so (http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newi...d=180330002J.K).

    Your final point I am not sure about. It makes sense that you would be asked to leave voluntarily prior to any other action, but that question would be better answered by someone in university administration or BPD.

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    yes, they must ask you to leave and you must refuse before you can be charge with trespassing. Idaho Code 18-7008 defines trespass. The relevant section (8) provides: "Every person, except under landlord-tenant relationship, who, being first notified in writing, or verbally by the owner or authorized agent of the owner of real property, to immediately depart from the same and who refuses to so depart, or who, without permission or invitation, returns and enters said property within a year, after being so notified; Is guilty of a misdemeanor."

    All they can do is ask you to leave - if they even catch you. You cannot be charged with a crime. You may find the campus police eager to disarm and arrest you, though, as some people who frequent this forum have experienced. If that were to happen, a civil suit against BPD for false arrest would be in order...

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    I have given this university exemption thing a lot of thought. My thinking also applies to the practice of barring law biding citizens from OC'ing or CC'ing on public school property (K-12), the post office, local libraries, and anywhere else that is supposedly "allowed" to have different rules. I would even say this includes the county and federal courthouses and their offices, as well as local and city offices.

    BUt for now let's address the colleges. I am wondering how it is possible for them to get away with this, even with an exemption granted by the state.

    Here is my line of thinking, who agrees with me on this?

    The first ten Amendments of the United States Constitution are called the Bill of Rights. These 10 amendments were specifically written to safeguard the INDIVIDUAL'S rights (as opposed to state's rights etc. in the remaining amendments) from being violated by the government (federal, state or local, doesn't matter).

    The Constitution exists to safeguard our God given rights from being violated by the government (federal, state, local) OR its employees/representatives...ANY branch of ANY government, or ANY person or person's representing the government, it doesn't matter!!

    A public university is a) public property, and as such it is technically owned by the taxpayers of the state it is located in and indeed by the entire citizenry of the United States; b) usually partially but significantly funded by federal and state tax dollars, and; c) operated as an entity of the government by the state (why else are they called Boise State University, University of Idaho etc), and their employees (professors, administration, and support personnel alike) are state employees, receiving their pay and benefits from the state.

    So isn't a state university, even one with the exemption, guilty of violating our federal and state Constitutional rights if they refuse to allow us to lawfully OC or CC our weapons on what is essentially OUR property...taxpayer property?? And for that matter, isn't a state who GRANTS such an exemption to their public universities ALSO guilty of violating our Constitutional rights? They are both entities of the government, and hence they are the very entities that the Bill of Rights were written to protect us against!!

    So how is it that no one...no individual person or lawyer, no state AG or even the ACLU, the supposed watchdogs of our freedonms (like that will happen) has ever seen fit to challenge this in court?

    Am I wrong in my thinking? I don't believe that I am.

    Dave

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    I will try to get Louis86 on this one, he was a driving force during last year's attempt to allow CC on university grounds, at least he was much more involved than I was. Until then I will try to comment on what I can remember, most of those memories have been replaced because of a trip to Basic.

    There was a bill in the works last year that would have allowed CC on UI, BSU, and ISU. It was basically a part of the re-issue of the state pre-emption that would have gotten rid of the University exemption. IIRC it was proposed due to lobbying from the Students for CC, because the University system is a state entity therefor it should not be exempted.

    Needless to say they met very heavy resistance from the University of Idaho, both students and faculty. There was actually a student lead "discussion" last spring that went ok, but the opposition spewed a lot of Brady Bunch rhetoric to scare their fellow students into thinking we were going to pack on campus then shoot everyone over a bad grade, no kidding, this was said.

    The student response against CCW on campus was un-organized and rhetoric driven with no real facts to back it up, but the UI faculty jumped on board esp, with the VT incident still in memory. There was some issue of the student lobbyist, Jimmy Fox, allowing his personal politics to influence what he would lobby for in the legislature but it was largely ignored.

    In the end the lobbying arm at UI and other state schools were able to convince the legislature to allow an exemption to the pre-emption laws for the universities based on fear-mongering that students with guns would go get drunk, get into a fight and then have a shoot out in the dorms. That was actually a claim used against us. Of course, no one bothered to remember to look at Idaho's CCW permit reqs. that mean you are at least 21.

    If only the U of I knew just how many firearms are actually on campus, either snuck into the dorms or stored in the fraternities. They would crap their pants.

    Firststrike, the Universities as a whole don't give a damn about the US or Idaho constitutions. They only want what matches their very liberal and progressive teachings and gun rights don't do that, even if they are protected by law.U of I may be in Idaho but they are just as liberal as California. In 2004 I wore a Bushmaster M4 t-shirt to celebrate the death of the AWB. Most of my instructors flipped over the AWB sunset thinking we were all going to go buy rifles and shoot the place up with our super deadly assault rifles.

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    Dave,

    You are absolutely spot on with everything you said. I will try and cover the stuff Vandal left out.

    Due to the fact that it is still in the planning stages I cant say much about it but the group Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC) is planning something. The national VP of the group lives in Moscow and has been putting stuff together to get us our rights back for the last few years. He is also the one that wrote the preemption bill last year and it originally had colleges included but due to political pressure of an election year (and other reasons I will explain later and the ones Vandal stated) it was removed by the sponsors. It was thought at the time that just passing legislation would be the easiest way to get this done but supposedly they are taking another route.

    The other problem we are running into specifically with the University of Idaho is that it was formed when Idaho was still a territory. When Idaho became a state they never specifically stated where the UI Board of Regents fits in. So in the case of the UI Board of Regents they are some sort of fourth branch of government and know one seems to know who has authority over them(yes very strange and stupid). So whatever the group decides to do has to take that into account.

    The biggest disappointment we have gotten in the last few years was the very first step we took was to ask the AG for an opinion on what the colleges where doing. He sent us back a 40 something page answer that basically amounted to "we don't know". It just baffles my mind that the Idaho AG has no idea what is in both the federal and state constitutions.

    I will attempt to get a hold of the SCCC VP and see if he has time to come to the lunch in Pullman this weekend for those going to explain what’s going on. If he does come I will post a general update on here with what he said (for those who cant come), as long as he allows it to be posted online.

    Louie

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    Louie86 wrote:
    Dave,

    You are absolutely spot on with everything you said. I will try and cover the stuff Vandal left out.

    Due to the fact that it is still in the planning stages I cant say much about it but the group Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC) is planning something. The national VP of the group lives in Moscow and has been putting stuff together to get us our rights back for the last few years. He is also the one that wrote the preemption bill last year and it originally had colleges included but due to political pressure of an election year (and other reasons I will explain later and the ones Vandal stated) it was removed by the sponsors. It was thought at the time that just passing legislation would be the easiest way to get this done but supposedly they are taking another route.

    The other problem we are running into specifically with the University of Idaho is that it was formed when Idaho was still a territory. When Idaho became a state they never specifically stated where the UI Board of Regents fits in. So in the case of the UI Board of Regents they are some sort of fourth branch of government and know one seems to know who has authority over them(yes very strange and stupid). So whatever the group decides to do has to take that into account.

    The biggest disappointment we have gotten in the last few years was the very first step we took was to ask the AG for an opinion on what the colleges where doing. He sent us back a 40 something page answer that basically amounted to "we don't know". It just baffles my mind that the Idaho AG has no idea what is in both the federal and state constitutions.

    I will attempt to get a hold of the SCCC VP and see if he has time to come to the lunch in Pullman this weekend for those going to explain what’s going on. If he does come I will post a general update on here with what he said (for those who cant come), as long as he allows it to be posted online.

    Louie
    I remember seeing some posts about IIRC, but I didn't know specifically what it referred to. Thanks to you both for the information.

    I think if we (both CC'ers and OC'ers) continue to exert political pressure on the states and the schools via our elected officials, and specifically use the Constitutional argument, we can eventually triumph (as well as use that victory to get things changed in other areas such as the courthouses, public K-12 schools, libraries etc). It just really irks me to no end that ANY entity of the government can violate our rights like this and get away with it. I don't see how some judge or lawyer hasn't caught on to this and raised hell.

    If I weren't so old, I would go back to school and go to law school. I am 43 and at this point a little long in the tooth to spend another 4-6 years in school getting a law degree, but I have sure given it some thought. Just so I could get out there and start doing something substantial about this issue and others like it.

    Dave

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    Dave,
    there are a lot of resources to help out libertarian-minded individuals who wish to go to law school. The Federalist Society (law) and Phillips Foundation (undergrad) come to mind.

    You would be surprised at the number of 2nd Amendment supporters like myself at UI Law. Last month we (the student Federalist Society chapter) brought Alan Gura, the attorney who argued DC v. Heller before the Supreme Court, to speak about the right to keep and bear arms. Over 75 law students attended, most in support of Mr. Gura's views.

    We'll have to see how next semester's shotgun raffle fundraiser goes. I have a feeling that will do a lot raise awareness of the firearms on campus issue.

    I think the hardest part of challenging university regulations in court is finding a test case - that is, finding a student who is willing to be expelled for a "firearms violation" so that he has standing to bring a suit. For example, as strong a supporter of RKBA as I am, I believe I can better serve the cause by completing my law degree and supporting the cause as an attorney than as a expelled student.

    UI is actually better than BSU when it comes to firearms regulations - UI allows students to bring cased, trigger-locked, unloaded firearms on campus, where BSU doesn't allow firearms, period. When I lived at BSU I had to keep all my guns locked in the trunk of my car because BSU made no provision for storage at all. But both schools effectively eliminate their student's 2nd Amendment Rights - I would love to see a lawsuit in federal court charging constitutional violation.

    When's that Moscow/Pullman OC dinner happening? Sounds like a good time...

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    idahoguy84 wrote:
    Dave,
    there are a lot of resources to help out libertarian-minded individuals who wish to go to law school. The Federalist Society (law) and Phillips Foundation (undergrad) come to mind.

    You would be surprised at the number of 2nd Amendment supporters like myself at UI Law. Last month we (the student Federalist Society chapter) brought Alan Gura, the attorney who argued DC v. Heller before the Supreme Court, to speak about the right to keep and bear arms. Over 75 law students attended, most in support of Mr. Gura's views.

    We'll have to see how next semester's shotgun raffle fundraiser goes. I have a feeling that will do a lot raise awareness of the firearms on campus issue.

    I think the hardest part of challenging university regulations in court is finding a test case - that is, finding a student who is willing to be expelled for a "firearms violation" so that he has standing to bring a suit. For example, as strong a supporter of RKBA as I am, I believe I can better serve the cause by completing my law degree and supporting the cause as an attorney than as a expelled student.

    UI is actually better than BSU when it comes to firearms regulations - UI allows students to bring cased, trigger-locked, unloaded firearms on campus, where BSU doesn't allow firearms, period. When I lived at BSU I had to keep all my guns locked in the trunk of my car because BSU made no provision for storage at all. But both schools effectively eliminate their student's 2nd Amendment Rights - I would love to see a lawsuit in federal court charging constitutional violation.

    When's that Moscow/Pullman OC dinner happening? Sounds like a good time...
    Well, it is not so much a matter of money as it is just that I am old enough that I might not even finish before I am close to fifty. Not sure I want to do that. Believe me though I have given it a lot of thought. I will keep thosde organizations you mentioned in mind, and we shall see.

    In the future, if you have more events like that, speakers etc could you drop me a PM and let me know? I would have loved to attend that one, but I didn't know about it.

    As for the Pullman/Moscow OC dinner, due to some people's time constraints, it turned into lunch and it is tomorrow (Sunday 4/26/09)at 1pm at the Mongolian Fire in Pullman. Check the Pullman WA thread for details and directions.

    Dave

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    Idahoguy84,

    I heard about Alan Gura being at the law school the day after he was there. I am in the UI business school and never heard anything about it and I am fairly connected to firearms related happenings at the University. When you guys hold similar events please get the word out as best as possible, I know many members of both the business and engineering schools who would have loved to attend. Also where is their information on the local federalist chapter?

    Louie

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    Louis,
    we'll do better next year in getting the word out. (new leadership, of which I'm now part). Most of our advertising this year was done in the law school, except for posters and flyers in the Commons.

    You can join the UI Federalist Society Facebook group at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30993810858 and you should encourage your like-minded friends to join. All events are posted there and Facebook notifications go out all members. Also, if you shoot me your email address I'll add you to our email list so you'll get notifications be email too.

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    I almost forgot about this thread as I have been letting myself get into internet ******* matches over in the WA forum. You'd think I would know better but sometimes I have to tweak the brittle people. To those who looked up the rules and regs I would like to pass on my thanks for your efforts.

    I ended up not pressing my luck at BSU while talking with them about my transcript. I went in unarmed and escaped unscathed. I was reminded why i am happy to go to Idaho rather than BSU. Nobody there talks to anyone else or makes eye contact with each other. It is a very hostile environment compared to Idaho. I now have my transcript and am on track to graduate on May 16th from UI!

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