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Thread: Open carry illegal in Milwaukee County Parks

  1. #1
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    I have been calling for the last two days about how Milwaukee COunty ordinance 47.05 is in non-compliandce with state statute 66.0409.

    State statute 66.0409

    66.0409. Local regulation of firearms.
    (1) In this section:
    (a) "Firearm" has the meaning given in s.
    167.31 (1) (c).
    (b) "Political subdivision" means a city,
    village, town or county.

    (c) "Sport shooting range" means an area designed and operated for the practice of weapons used in hunting, skeet shooting and similar sport shooting.
    (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.
    (3)(a) Nothing in this section prohibits a county from imposing a sales tax or use tax under subchapter V of chapter 77 on any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, sold in the county.
    (b) Nothing in this section prohibits a city, village or town that is authorized to exercise village powers under s. 60.22 (3) from enacting an ordinance or adopting a resolution that restricts the discharge of a firearm.
    (4)(a) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from continuing to enforce an ordinance or resolution that is in effect on November 18, 1995, and that regulates the sale, purchase, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, if the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute. transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components,
    (am) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from continuing to enforce until November 30, 1998, an ordinance or resolution that is in effect on November 18, 1995, and that requires a waiting period of not more than 7 days for the purchase of a handgun.
    (b) If a political subdivision has in effect on November 17, 1995, an ordinance or resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or
    taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, and the ordinance or resolution is not the same as or similar to a state statute, the ordinance or resolution shall have no legal effect and the political subdivision may not enforce the ordinance or resolution on or after November 18, 1995.
    (c) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from enacting and enforcing a zoning ordinance that regulates the new construction of a sport shooting range or when the expansion of an existing sport shooting range would impact public health and safety.
    (5) A county ordinance that is enacted or a county resolution that is adopted by a county under sub. (2) or a county ordinance or resolution that remains in effect under sub. (4) (a) or (am) applies only in those towns in the county that have not enacted an ordinance or adopted a resolution under sub. (2) or that continue to enforce an ordinance or resolution under sub. (4) (a) or (am), except that this subsection does not apply to a sales or use tax that is imposed under subchapter V of chapter 77.
    Milwaukee county ordinance 47.05

    Use of firearms and fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow; trapping. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description, nor shall any person engage in trapping within any park or parkway without a written permit of the department of parks, recreation and culture; nor shall any person hunt with bow and arrow within any park or parkway. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description upon any premises owed or leased by Milwaukee County which is not part of the county parks and parkways. The word "gun" shall include airgun.



    Now some people say that it is similar to the state park statute but in fact it is way more restrictive. You can't possess a gun at all in a county par, which is a total gun ban while the state park statute states you may carry a gun ANYTIME as long as it is unloaded and encased. Also there is a huge difference between county and state parks!! Not to mention we have 99 state parks and 120 or so M. CTY parks.



    Here is the state park statute
    29.089(2)
    (3)'] no person may have in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm on land located in state parks or state fish hatcheries unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.




    PLEAE CALL, I have been working hard at finding what the hell is going on!!

  2. #2
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    Here are the numbers to call

    (414) 278-4646.

    District Attorney: Mr. John T. Chisholm



    Phone: 414-278-4211

    Scott walker



    The staute reads the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute



    It is more stringent!!!!

    Ben

  3. #3
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    Interesting point.

    I'm still waiting on the call back from the Milwaukee County Parks employee who called me yesterday. I think I'll give her a ring again today to see if she has dicovere anything.

  4. #4
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    No torpedos?! awww, there goes my fun at the park lagoon.


    But seriously...

    STATE law says you cannot go in a STATE park armed.

    It does NOT say you cannot go in a park owned by the state or any political subdivision thereof.

    Contrast that with the gov't buildings statute which DOES specify that you can't go armed in a building owned by the state "or any political subdivision thereof."

    Therefore any ordinance that references county or muni parks...is more stringent.


    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

  5. #5
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    3)'] no person may have in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm on land located in state parks or state fish hatcheries unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.




    You can carry a gun around in state parks you just have to follow the procedure above.

  6. #6
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    BJA wrote:
    3)'] no person may have in his or her possession or under his or her control a firearm on land located in state parks or state fish hatcheries unless the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.




    You can carry a gun around in state parks you just have to follow the procedure above.
    Yeah, that's my understanding as well. Kind of hard to have a open carry picnic while walking around with pistol cases, though.

  7. #7
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    Besides, carrying a pistol in a case is CCW, which is prohibited.

    Gotta love our legislature and judiciary in WI!

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    BJA wrote:
    Open carry illegal in Milwaukee County Parks

    No **** Sherlock....

  9. #9
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    welcome back, bunker.
    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

  10. #10
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    P.I. Guy wrote:
    BJA wrote:
    Open carry illegal in Milwaukee County Parks

    No @#$% Sherlock....
    Is that you, Bunker ol buddy?


    How'd Good old JB's opinion on Monday treat you?

  11. #11
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    Wow, I point out the obvious and get accusations in return. What a intelligent bunch here.

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    P.I guy,

    A little background, you have added nothing but deragoatory statements in your brief time here, No introduction, no nothing. There is a guy who used the name "Bunker" in one of his trolling attempts that did nothing butargue onthis site and startedand typed out nothing but his emotions instead of anything that could be considered fact.

    You are currently emulatiing "Bunker" and doing a darn good job with your few posts,
    So whats the deal? Are you pro 2A, or anti 2A, maybe if you were to state your intentions and add some verifiable facts to the discussion, you may recieve awarmer welcome.

    Are you looking for intelligent banter, or just here to be a troll?

  13. #13
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    P.I. Guy wrote:
    Wow, I point out the obvious and get accusations in return. What a intelligent bunch here.
    The only thing I saw you do was cut & paste someone's topic, boldface it, and add a smartass "No @#$^ sherlock"

    Now if I'm somehow misinterpreting you, I'll gladly apologize. But the reason I said welcome back bunker is because this bunker character used to make all kinds of posts swearing up and down that he knew for fact things that are now clearly and absolutely proven false.


    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

  14. #14
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    "if the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, AND no more stringent than, a state statute."

    Both of these underlined statements have to be in place in order for the premption to work, due to the AND. Unfortunately the "similar to" seems to be the weasel word here.

    At the very least, they cannot redefine "airgun" to be a "firearm" in the last sentence.

  15. #15
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    State Parks are not municipal parks, nor are they similar.

  16. #16
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    So what can we do?? I have been caling as I stated before, and hoping they repeal it. But who gets held accountable for not being in comliance with state law!? What is the next course of actions?



    Isn't there any accountability in our government?



    Ben


  17. #17
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    The issue here is that the state law (66.0409) did not force subdivisions of the state to purge their unenforceable laws, nor did it make it illegal for such laws to exist. It simply made it illegal to enforce such laws. I say, to use the MPD Chief's own words, that we act against such laws with "impunity," as state law allows.

    For instance, Saukville still has a total prohibition onfirearms possession unless such firearms are unloaded and encased (even going so far as to have no exemption for the home), though they know they can't enforce it. One of these days I'll get it taken out of the municipal code, but it's not high on my list right now as it's really just aesthetics.

  18. #18
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    Well the thing is though that I talked to the milwaukee county sheriffs department and they said they will enforce it.

  19. #19
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    BJA wrote:
    Well the thing is though that I talked to the milwaukee county sheriffs department and they said they will enforce it.

    OK, so they've given away their qualified immunity to a federal lawsuit. This is really no different than carrying openly under the threat of being "put on the ground;" both are illegal actions by the police, and so far, the Milwaukee Sheriff's Department has only threatened to do these things.


    I'm not going to tell anyone to "go ahead and do it to see what happens;" having a bunch of cops with hard-ons for their own authority pointing guns at you so you can show them they're wrong in court is not what I'd call the safest plan. It might just be the best way to remind them that YOU are in charge, they only work for you, however. Another good idea is to send letters to your legislators, and copy in the Sheriff and Milwaukee DA. Perhaps contacting a civil rights attorney, and speaking to them about it would behoove you. You could also consider an en masse stroll throughsome parks with cameras; in Brad's case (the Channel 12 interview), the police seemeed VERY reluctant to be on film detaining someone illegally.


    Unfortunately, police have been given far too much leeway for far too long in these matters, and people have just gone along with it. This is not going to change overnight, or in a week, or in a month.


  20. #20
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    Okay, so I just found out that this ordinance covers ALL county property not just parks......... I don't know how I missed it.

    47.05. Use of firearms, fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow and trapping; throwing of missiles; making of fires; deposit or breakage of tin cans, bottles and glassware; prohibitions.

    (1)Use of firearms and fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow; trapping. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description, nor shall any person engage in trapping within any park or parkway without a written permit of the department of parks, recreation and culture; nor shall any person hunt with bow and arrow within any park or parkway. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description upon any premises owed or leased by Milwaukee County which is not part of the county parks and parkways. The word "gun" shall include airgun.


    Ben


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    That is definitely unenforceable. It says including land not part of the county parks.

    that is like trying to claim eminent domain.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42...3----000-.html

  22. #22
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    Again I ask, where is the Scott Walker comment on this?
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    In my opinion if Scott walker is going to beat around the bush that means he is not supportive of our cause. There are other candidates that will support our cause.

    I don't know why these guys think that silence is the answer. I will only vote for someone who is willing to stand up for what is right (pardon the punn)

    I think Alderwoman Lisa should run for Governor! :celebrate

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    BJA wrote:
    Okay, so I just found out that this ordinance covers ALL county property not just parks......... I don't know how I missed it.

    47.05. Use of firearms, fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow and trapping; throwing of missiles; making of fires; deposit or breakage of tin cans, bottles and glassware; prohibitions.

    (1)Use of firearms and fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow; trapping. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description, nor shall any person engage in trapping within any park or parkway without a written permit of the department of parks, recreation and culture; nor shall any person hunt with bow and arrow within any park or parkway. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description upon any premises owed or leased by Milwaukee County which is not part of the county parks and parkways. The word "gun" shall include airgun.


    Ben

    If this is the case, then it is a B-S ordinance Since several tracts of state-owned land is open to both Open-carry of a firearm, and hunting. Wouldn't this Milwaukee ordinance be more stringent and therefore preempted according to WI Stat. 66.049 ? ? ? ? ? Can anyone contact a legislator they may personally know to get an opinion from the A.G. ? ? ?

    As an addition to this, State and Federal forest's in the state are also open to carry and hunting in many places. Such as the Cheq/Nic National Forest which is in parts ofVilas, Forest& Iron Counties. Vernon Marsh in Waukesha County, Theresa and Horicon marsh, Etc Etc Etc.....


    EDIT: And parts of the "Northern Highland State Forest" is one of my favorite hunting area's too.

  25. #25
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    Even if the ordinance was just about the carrying in parks it would be nullified. There is a huge difference between state parks and local parks. The state only has one statute relating to firearms in local parks, and it only states that you can't discharge a weapon in a local park nothing more. Therefore any local ordinance regarding local parks would be void unless it only specififically pertains to the "discharge".



    167.30Use of firearms, etc., near park, etc. Any person who shall discharge or cause the discharge of any missile from any firearm, slung shot, bow and arrow or other weapon, within 40 rods of any public park, square or enclosure owned or controlled by any municipality within this state and resorted to for recreation or pleasure, when such park, square or enclosure is wholly situated without the limits of such municipality, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding 60 days or by fine of not more than $25 nor less than one dollar



    By the way Nutczak, Me and my little brother are heading up to the Northern Highland State Forest this weekend. Doing some wilderness camping on Allequash lake, and lots of fishing. It' beautiful up at vilas!



    Ben



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