Open carry illegal in Milwaukee County Parks

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That is definitely unenforceable. It says including land not part of the county parks.

that is like trying to claim eminent domain.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html

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Again I ask, where is the Scott Walker comment on this?

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In my opinion if Scott walker is going to beat around the bush that means he is not supportive of our cause. There are other candidates that will support our cause.

I don't know why these guys think that silence is the answer. I will only vote for someone who is willing to stand up for what is right (pardon the punn)

I think Alderwoman Lisa should run for Governor! :celebrate

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BJA wrote:

Okay, so I just found out that this ordinance covers ALL county property not just parks......... I don't know how I missed it.

47.05. Use of firearms, fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow and trapping; throwing of missiles; making of fires; deposit or breakage of tin cans, bottles and glassware; prohibitions.

(1)Use of firearms and fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow; trapping. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description, nor shall any person engage in trapping within any park or parkway without a written permit of the department of parks, recreation and culture; nor shall any person hunt with bow and arrow within any park or parkway. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description upon any premises owed or leased by Milwaukee County which is not part of the county parks and parkways. The word "gun" shall include airgun.


Ben

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If this is the case, then it is a B-S ordinance Since several tracts of state-owned land is open to both Open-carry of a firearm, and hunting. Wouldn't this Milwaukee ordinance be more stringent and therefore preempted according to WI Stat. 66.049 ? ? ? ? ? Can anyone contact a legislator they may personally know to get an opinion from the A.G. ? ? ?

As an addition to this, State and Federal forest's in the state are also open to carry and hunting in many places. Such as the Cheq/Nic National Forest which is in parts ofVilas, Forest& Iron Counties. Vernon Marsh in Waukesha County, Theresa and Horicon marsh, Etc Etc Etc.....


EDIT: And parts of the "Northern Highland State Forest" is one of my favorite hunting area's too.

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Even if the ordinance was just about the carrying in parks it would be nullified. There is a huge difference between state parks and local parks. The state only has one statute relating to firearms in local parks, and it only states that you can't discharge a weapon in a local park nothing more. Therefore any local ordinance regarding local parks would be void unless it only specififically pertains to the "discharge".



167.30Use of firearms, etc., near park, etc. Any person who shall discharge or cause the discharge of any missile from any firearm, slung shot, bow and arrow or other weapon, within 40 rods of any public park, square or enclosure owned or controlled by any municipality within this state and resorted to for recreation or pleasure, when such park, square or enclosure is wholly situated without the limits of such municipality, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding 60 days or by fine of not more than $25 nor less than one dollar



By the way Nutczak, Me and my little brother are heading up to the Northern Highland State Forest this weekend. Doing some wilderness camping on Allequash lake, and lots of fishing. It' beautiful up at vilas!



Ben

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Again I ask, where is the Scott Walker comment on this?

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=25984

Flipper, we've discussed this before. Scott Walkers staff asked for a legal opinion, and was given one that the ordinance was parallel with the state park ban.

If you think any politician in Wisconsin that has a snowballs chance in hell of being elected governor is going to make open carry in county parks the cornerstone of their campaign, you're nuts.

Scott Walker would sign ANY pro-gun legislation that made it to his desk as county exec or governor. I guarantee it.

I'm not at all surprised that he's not running around trying to start a fire around the muddy unclear legal water of the county park gun-ban ordinance.

He's not god, he can't just snap his fingers and make it go away.

Having said that. You must vote your conscience. If Jim Doyle is a better champion of gun rights because Scott Walker doesn't make YOUR issue the highlight of his day, vote your conscience. If you have another viable candidate for governor that will make open carry in county parks (or the school zone ban, or vehicle carry ban) the champion of their campaign, HELL, I'll vote for them. But we KNOW those issues are not going to win elections among the masses. I'm happy to do MY part to bring those issues to the forefront through contacting my representatives or through funding civil lawsuits against them.

As for the county executive, who you're ready to rail on because he isn't championing a cause his office says they have no legal basis for, you might know that he can only sign legislation the county board sends to him. And you might know that the county board and Scott Walker DON'T see eye to eye. (thank god for that) What did YOUR county board rep say? Why aren't you railing on someone who COULD introduce legislation like your county board rep, instead of someone who can only sign or veto what comes to his desk?

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Good points Nik.

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As a candidate for governor, at some point he is going to have to provide his views on open and concealed carry as well as other gun issues.

As county exec he is in this box:

2)Duties and powers. The county executive shall be the chief executive officer of the county. The county executive shall take care that every county ordinance and state or federal law is observed, enforced and administered within his or her county if the ordinance or law is subject to enforcement by the county executive or any person supervised by the county executive. The duties and powers of the county executive shall be, without limitation because of enumeration, to:

(b) In any county with a population of 500,000 or more, appoint and supervise the heads of all departments except where the statutes provide that the appointment shall be made by a board or commission or by other elected officers.

1. In any county with a population of 500,000 or more, appoint the following persons:

a. The director of parks, recreation and culture under s. 27.03 (2)

The solution: The park ordinance is changed or determined to be invalid.

As county exec can he ask the county's corporation counsel to request an A.G.opinion?

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My county supervisor (is that what they are called...) has asked for an opionion from the corporation counsel. I haven't heard back from him so I guess I owe another email.

OTOH, we are relatively certain that the county cannot enforce this ordinance. I say the next meet and greet be in a county park with cameras rolling. Hell, we could even invite the sheriff's department.

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Flipper wrote:

As county exec can he ask the county's corporation counsel to request an A.G.opinion?

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http://www.doj.state.wi.us/ag/opinions/

Attorney General Opinions The attorney general shall . . . [g]ive his or her opinion in writing, when required, without fee, upon all questions of law submitted to him or her by the legislature, either house thereof or the senate or assembly committee on organization, or by the head of any department of state government.
-- Wis. Stat. § 165.015
By statute, the Attorney General must, when asked, provide the legislature and designated Wisconsin state government officials with an opinion on legal questions. The Attorney General may also give formal legal opinions to district attorneys and county corporation counsel under certain circumstances. Wis. Stat. § 165.25(3) and 59.42(1)(c).
Opinions of the Attorney General (OAG) typically provide guidance when confusion exists about the meaning of a statute and Wisconsin appellate courts have not yet definitively answered the question. Wisconsin courts do not have any obligation to follow an interpretation provided by an OAG, but they often do. As the Wisconsin Court of Appeals has written, "Well-reasoned attorney general's opinions have persuasive value when a court later addresses the meaning of the same statute."

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59.42(1)(c)
(c) The corporation counsel may, when authorized by a majority of the board, appoint one or more assistant corporation counsels to aid the corporation counsel in the performance of the duties of corporation counsel. The assistants so appointed shall have authority to perform all the duties of the corporation counsel. The duties of the corporation counsel shall be limited to civil matters and may include giving legal opinions to the board and its committees and interpreting the powers and duties of the board and county officers. Whenever any of the powers and duties conferred upon the corporation counsel are concurrent with similar powers or duties conferred by law upon the district attorney, the district attorney's powers or duties shall cease to the extent that they are so conferred upon the corporation counsel and the district attorney shall be relieved of the responsibility for performing such powers or duties. Opinions of the corporation counsel on all such matters shall have the same effect as opinions of the district attorney. The corporation counsel may request the attorney general to consult and advise with the corporation counsel in the same manner as district attorneys as provided by s. 165.25 (3).

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OTOH, we are relatively certain that the county cannot enforce this ordinance.

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I agree, being unable to carry in county parks is CLEARLY more restrictive than the state statute of not being able to carry in state parks. No question about it.

I have not heard from any judge or state official (attorney general) that the local ordinance is enforeceable.

I have heard that AGA's (armed government agents) have claimed they will arrest for open carry in a county park, but THEN AGAIN, we know that members of this forum have asked AGA's if open carry was legal at all and AGA's say "no". So we know the cops have no obligation to tell the truth, and we know cops will do everything they can to intimidate people from exercising their rights.

In none of the memoradums nor training memo's that I've seen where they purport to list all of the exclusions from open carry (alcohol, school zone, vehicle carry, public building) do they list county parks as prohibited places.

This leaves the options of just doing it. (which some claim to be doing) and see what happens. Filing a lawsuit to get the ordinances removed, petitioning the county board legislators to get it removed, or perhaps just asking Jesus to go do it in front of AGA's and call their bluff. I suspect worse case scenario, they'll arrest and not charge because the THREAT of reprecussion for carrying in a park carries FAR more teeth than the reality of what happens if the CHARGE IT and have the courts correctly rule that its unenforceable.

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Attorney General Opinions The attorney general shall . . . [g]ive his or her opinion in writing, when required, without fee, upon all questions of law submitted to him or her by the legislature, either house thereof or the senate or assembly committee on organization, or by the head of any department of state government.

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From statements of board members previously, Scott Walkers office indicated that they did ask for a legal opinion. (was that from the AG? or corporate counsel?)

If they really did ask for that opinion, then we should be able to do an open records request?

Anyone see a fault in my logic? if not, then I'll write a open records request to the county exec today.

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Requesting just what, please?

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requesting what response they got from their "corporate counsel" or the Attorney General when they asked about the legal standing of the county park firearm ban ordinace.

IF the county execs office really did seek a legal opinion (and that is an "if")

then per open records, we would be entitled to it? A citizen cannot ask for an opinion from the AG (if I understand correctly) but we can demand that the county exec does, and then we are entitled to an open records request of what that opinion was.

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made a phone call to a contact at the CE office, waiting for answer, i'll report back as soon as I hear.

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An oral open records request? Verry good! And entirely appropriate. You've done your reading.

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Updates?

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Nothing yet, I'm going to give her a couple more days and check back.

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Just an update. I contacted the CE's office again today and received the following reply:

No - it seems no one has a direct answer for me - and the County Executive is on his 6th Annual Executive Ride around Wisconsin promoting Milwaukee County. I might not have an answer until next week.

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So of course I'll update next week or as soon as I hear.