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Thread: Public College/University policies barring OC and CC

  1. #1
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    (I originally posted this in another part of the forum, but I think it deserves its own spot here too. I wrote this in response to a CC question by vandal for when he goes to the Boise State University campus...except that I made a few minor changes and added the paragraph below to THIS posting for clarification).

    As most of you are probably aware, in many states, even those where OC or CC is legal and/or they have preemption, it is still unlawful to OC or CC on a college or university campus. The way the state usually achieves this is by allowing the college or university to have an "exemption" to the law, which lets them make administrative rules barring the carrying of weapons for self defense, both by law abiding students and the law abiding public as well.

    I have given this university exemption thing a lot of thought. My thinking also applies to the practice of barring law biding citizens from OC'ing or CC'ing on public school property (K-12), the post office, local libraries, and anywhere else that is supposedly "allowed" to have different rules. I would even say this includes the county and federal courthouses and their offices, as well as local and city offices.

    But for now let's address college and university campuses. I am wondering how it is possible for them to get away with this, even with an exemption granted by the state. Here is my line of thinking, who agrees with me on this?

    1) The first ten Amendments to the United States Constitution are collectively known as the Bill of Rights. These 10 amendments were specifically written to safeguard the INDIVIDUAL'S rights (as opposed to state's rights etc. in the remaining amendments) from being violated by the government (federal, state or local, doesn't matter).

    2) The Constitution exists to safeguard our God given rights from being violated by the government (federal, state, local) OR its employees/representatives...ANY branch of ANY government, or ANY person or person's representing the government, it doesn't matter!!

    3) A public university is a) public property, and as such it is technically owned by the taxpayers of the state it is located in and indeed by the entire citizenry of the United States; b) at least partially but often significantly funded by federal and state tax dollars, and; c) operated as an entity of the government by the state (why else are they called Boise State University, University of Idaho etc); and their employees (professors, administration, and support personnel alike) are state employees, receiving their pay and benefits from the state.

    So...isn't a state university, even one with an administrative exemption, guilty of violating our federal and state Constitutional rights when they refuse to allow us to lawfully OC or CC our weapons on what is essentially OUR property...taxpayer property?? And for that matter, isn't a state which GRANTS such an exemption to their public universities ALSO guilty of violating our Constitutional rights? They are both entities of the government, and hence they are the very entities that the Bill of Rights were written to protect us against!!

    So how is it that no one...no individual person or lawyer, no state AG or even the ACLU, the supposed watchdogs of our freedoms, (like they will ever do anything to help gun owners) has ever seen fit to challenge this in court?

    Am I wrong in my thinking? I don't believe that I am.

    Dave

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    Mike and John, I would love to hear your take on this as well.

    Dave

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    Seems to me like they do an end run around the issue, thus making getting it at the challanged would be difficult. They don't arrest you for open carry, they ask you to depart, and if you refuse you're arrested for trespass. Not that I agree with it, I strongly believe that publicly funded colleges should be required to allow it, just not sure how anybody is going to be able to mount a successful challange. If you even attempt it, you're going to get jail time for trespass.

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    NightOwl wrote:
    Seems to me like they do an end run around the issue, thus making getting it at the challanged would be difficult. They don't arrest you for open carry, they ask you to depart, and if you refuse you're arrested for trespass. Not that I agree with it, I strongly believe that publicly funded colleges should be required to allow it, just not sure how anybody is going to be able to mount a successful challange. If you even attempt it, you're going to get jail time for trespass.
    Yeah, I see what you're saying. But I think the key would be to somehow get them to openly declare WHY they are asking you to leave, especially if a person could get it on video or audio. They would have to present a good reason as to why you are being asked to depart, other than the presence of the weapon. Otherwise, there is the potential ammo one would need to present the case, I would think.

    I am just throwing things out here, guessing, playing Devil's advocate.

    I have been thinking about going back to school, I wish I could be a test case. I have given it some thought. We shall see

    Dave

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I think we all pretty much know why they are opposed to the presence of any weapons on campus. It does fly in the face of their liberal, statist/fascist world view, as well as scare the everloving stuffing out of them that they might have to become personally responsible for their own safety and protection.

    As for how they get around all the issues that thefirststrike has mentioned -- all I can do with any specificity is discuss the Virginia colleges. They used the administrative code.

    There is a challenge to that taking place as we speak. http://www.virginia1774.org/GMUBillofComplaint.pdf which is discussed on OCDO at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...ght=DiGiacinto+ .

    Not only is this guy taking on the powers that be on behalf of all of us as well as himself, he has a great website www.virginia1774.org where you can find just about anything you need regarding the law and how it seems to work here in Virginia.

    Folks facing similar issues in other states could do worse than spending some time studying what he has posted and petitioned.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    INTERESTING NOTE:

    I may be wrong on this, so please don't hold me to it. I cannot find the link to the case.

    In Norfolk, VA there was a case where a man was open carrying at Waterside. He was arrested because he would not disarm and leave the premise. There were no signs posted saying that you could not carry.

    This ended up in court and the prosecution argued that Waterside was private property so the charges were valid.

    The defense argued that since Waterside had been partially funded with public money it was to be considered public property.

    The judge agreed with the defense and said that since *some* public money had been used in the construction of the site, it was public property and therefore statewide preemption overrode the private property argument.

    Now, this ruling would only apply in Norfolk, but if I am correct in this, and it were taken to a higher court.... since lots of colleges are built with some public funding... would this mean that they are public property and statewide preemption takes effect here too?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Our own Danbus and the hoisting of the City of Norfolk by their own petard regarding Waterside. Use the search function to find the thread and details. Waterside was not built using "some" public money - all the funding was from the public stream. That decision, unfortunately for preemption matters, carries noreal precedentoutside the City of Norfolk, as it was decided at the lowest possible level - the City's General District Court.

    GMU does receive some private funding to support certain activities, but is clearly a state agency as defined and contemplated by the firearms preemption statute. As are all the other state universities, colleges, community and junior colleges.

    DiGiacinto's suit against GMU is step one in determining that the state universities/colleges are bound by the preemption statute. Step two will be to take his [eventual, I anticipate] victory against GMU and apply it to any of the others. The final victory will be when two wins in different localities result in as identical as possible outcomes that are applicable to the rest of the universities/colleges in the state system.

    Will this help anyone outside Virginia? I don't know. The subtle differences between law and state agency designation/organization in other states needs to be researched. Merely driving within 25 miles of a Holiday Inn Express at less than 65 MPH is probably not good enough for that kind of legal work.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Dispatcher wrote:
    INTERESTING NOTE:

    I may be wrong on this, so please don't hold me to it. I cannot find the link to the case.

    In Norfolk, VA there was a case where a man was open carrying at Waterside. He was arrested because he would not disarm and leave the premise. There were no signs posted saying that you could not carry.

    This ended up in court and the prosecution argued that Waterside was private property so the charges were valid.

    The defense argued that since Waterside had been partially funded with public money it was to be considered public property.

    The judge agreed with the defense and said that since *some* public money had been used in the construction of the site, it was public property and therefore statewide preemption overrode the private property argument.

    Now, this ruling would only apply in Norfolk, but if I am correct in this, and it were taken to a higher court.... since lots of colleges are built with some public funding... would this mean that they are public property and statewide preemption takes effect here too?
    Well, that is my point exactly...if the university or college in question was built and is operated with federal or state funds, and if their employees and professors are paid as state employees, then that makes them a state agency by default. I know that here in Idaho at the UofI they are public employees. The employees receive their benefits packages through PERSI, which stands for "Public Employees..." something or other, in other words public employees of the state.

    Dave

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    skidmark wrote:
    Our own Danbus and the hoisting of the City of Norfolk by their own petard regarding Waterside. Use the search function to find the thread and details. Waterside was not built using "some" public money - all the funding was from the public stream. That decision, unfortunately for preemption matters, carries noreal precedentoutside the City of Norfolk, as it was decided at the lowest possible level - the City's General District Court.

    GMU does receive some private funding to support certain activities, but is clearly a state agency as defined and contemplated by the firearms preemption statute. As are all the other state universities, colleges, community and junior colleges.

    DiGiacinto's suit against GMU is step one in determining that the state universities/colleges are bound by the preemption statute. Step two will be to take his [eventual, I anticipate] victory against GMU and apply it to any of the others. The final victory will be when two wins in different localities result in as identical as possible outcomes that are applicable to the rest of the universities/colleges in the state system.

    Will this help anyone outside Virginia? I don't know. The subtle differences between law and state agency designation/organization in other states needs to be researched. Merely driving within 25 miles of a Holiday Inn Express at less than 65 MPH is probably not good enough for that kind of legal work.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    It can't hurt...a win there will help set a precedent that can be quoted and used for other cases in other states. We need to use the time honored liberal technique of "embarassing" the other states into compliance, much like how the gay rights activists do, by saying "well, this state adopted this, why not us" and so on, so that they feel the pressure more and more as it snowballs.

    Dave

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    The activity in the Virginia courts is quite interesting, thanks. Looks like my assumption of how it would be handled was about right...but wow, did I fall short of where it actually ended up, or what? I hope the gentleman in Virginia does succeed in proving it statewide. Perhaps it'll be groundwork for the rest of the states...awesome stuff.

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    It would probably be a good idea to take a look at Utah.

    A while back we took the issue to the AG, who under our preemption law, ruled that schools could not ban weapons on campus, and a citizen could carry there as long as they had a concealed weapons permit.

    One of the colleges sued the AG, the AG prevailed, then they tried to sue him a second time, and he once again prevailed.

    This decision even extended to k12 schools.

    Talk about your example to follow.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    It would probably be a good idea to take a look at Utah.

    A while back we took the issue to the AG, who under our preemption law, ruled that schools could not ban weapons on campus, and a citizen could carry there as long as they had a concealed weapons permit.

    One of the colleges sued the AG, the AG prevailed, then they tried to sue him a second time, and he once again prevailed.

    This decision even extended to k12 schools.

    Talk about your example to follow.
    Virginia schools will not sue the AG, who has already issued an opinion that they have exceeded the authority granted by the General Assembly.Our AG said they did nott need to be limited to having a CHP, as OC is not prohibitted in our laws. Perhaps because they fear they would lose? (Does that mean Virginia universities are smarter than Utah universities? Or does it mean that Virginia universities lack the courage of their convictions? )

    Thus, we have a citizen suing one of the universities. If he prevails, it will send notice to all the others that they are likely to also lose if they persist in their current practices.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

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