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Social Security Number Required

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
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Messages
35,317
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JoeSparky wrote:
publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/ccwrenew_000.pdf][/url]

I see according to the above linked form that a SSN is REQUIRED or they won't process the renewal application.

I seem to remember from other postings on this board that it is a Federal Crime or a Title 7(?) violation to require this.

Is my memory correct? Am I wrong in my understanding?

JoeSparky
My original social security card was printed across the bottom, "Not To Be Used For Identification."

That was more than a few years ago and my new card is not so marked.

Yata hey
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
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JoeSparky wrote:
publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/ccwrenew_000.pdf][/url]

I see according to the above linked form that a SSN is REQUIRED or they won't process the renewal application.

I seem to remember from other postings on this board that it is a Federal Crime or a Title 7(?) violation to require this.

Is my memory correct? Am I wrong in my understanding?


JoeSparky



I got curious for the details myself.

Edited to add: for some reason the text I tried to copy-and-paste wouldn't go through to this post.

Here is a link instead: http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm#10

Scroll down to the heading: "Am I required to give my SSN to government agencies?"



 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
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Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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JoeSparky wrote:
publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/ccwrenew_000.pdf][/url]

I see according to the above linked form that a SSN is REQUIRED or they won't process the renewal application.

I seem to remember from other postings on this board that it is a Federal Crime or a Title 7(?) violation to require this.

Is my memory correct? Am I wrong in my understanding?

JoeSparky

So, sue them for violating Section 7 of the Fedral Privacy Act - I did and won re Pennsylvania. See Stollenwerk v. Miller at http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D0225P.pdf

Did they provide a Section 7(b) privacy act wanring? Did they deny you for not havig or disclosing your SSN? That's what you need to get standing - injury in fact.
 

Citizen

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Joined
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Messages
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Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

Mike wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/ccwrenew_000.pdf][/url]

I see according to the above linked form that a SSN is REQUIRED or they won't process the renewal application.

I seem to remember from other postings on this board that it is a Federal Crime or a Title 7(?) violation to require this.

Is my memory correct? Am I wrong in my understanding?

JoeSparky

So, sue them for violating Section 7 of the Fedral Privacy Act - I did and won re Pennsylvania. See Stollenwerk v. Miller at http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D0225P.pdf

Did they provide a Section 7(b) privacy act wanring? Did they deny you for not havig or disclosing your SSN? That's what you need to get standing - injury in fact.

Mike, I'm interested in finding out more about the statute. Do you have a link handy for those of us who do not totally understand the numbering system for the US Code?
 

JoeSparky

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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
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I looked directly at the statute in Utah that covers the requirements for issuance of the ORIGINAL permit and it lists the requirements but DOES NOT REQUIRE DISCLOSURE OF THE SSN!

I can't for the life of me figure out why it would be required for a RENEWAL when it wasn't required for the original permit.

Here is the link... for those that would like to review it and see if I missed it.

le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm]http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm]http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm[/url]
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
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JoeSparky wrote:
I looked directly at the statute in Utah that covers the requirements for issuance of the ORIGINAL permit and it lists the requirements but DOES NOT REQUIRE DISCLOSURE OF THE SSN!

I can't for the life of me figure out why it would be required for a RENEWAL when it wasn't required for the original permit.

Here is the link... for those that would like to review it and see if I missed it.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm]http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm]http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_070400.htm[/url]

We just need to clear up the federal law. If Utah is in violation, you could make it your own project to get them to clean up their act.

Read Mike's linked .pdfabout his lawsuit. He came out on the winning end of that.
 

JoeSparky

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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
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[align=left]"Your application will
not be processed unless this form is completely filled out, notarized and all applicable questions have been answered. Enclose the $10.00 fee (include $7.50 late fee if the permit is more than 30 days expired), and one current passport quality color photo. PLEASE WRITE YOUR NAME AND PERMIT # ON BACK OF PHOTO!! Applicants over one year expired will not be able to renew and must reapply. Payment may be made in the form of check, money order or credit card, made payable to “Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification”. Cash will be accepted if your application is submitted in person. FEES ARE NON-REFUNDABLE. DO NOT SEND CASH IN THE MAIL."



The above is copied directly from the Utah Concealed Weapon Renewal form. Nowhere does the form give a Fed Title 7B disclosure. The SSN area does not indicate weather this is Mandatory or Voluntary. I would prefer to have Utah fix this issue BEFORE they get sued as I am a taxpayor also! I am tempted to copy and print Mike's successful suit and send it to them.
[/align]
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
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Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
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JoeSparky wrote:



[align=left]"Your application will
not be processed unless this form is completely filled out, notarized and all applicable questions have been answered. Enclose the $10.00 fee (include $7.50 late fee if the permit is more than 30 days expired), and one current passport quality color photo. PLEASE WRITE YOUR NAME AND PERMIT # ON BACK OF PHOTO!! Applicants over one year expired will not be able to renew and must reapply. Payment may be made in the form of check, money order or credit card, made payable to “Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification”. Cash will be accepted if your application is submitted in person. FEES ARE NON-REFUNDABLE. DO NOT SEND CASH IN THE MAIL."

The above is copied directly from the Utah Concealed Weapon Renewal form. Nowhere does the form give a Fed Title 7B disclosure. The SSN area does not indicate weather this is Mandatory or Voluntary. I would prefer to have Utah fix this issue BEFORE they get sued as I am a taxpayor also! I am tempted to copy and print Mike's successful suit and send it to them.
[/align]

If you are comfortable you have the legalities figured out, go for it!

I'm not sure what the proper channels are. Maybe the licensing authority with a copy tothe executive-branch attorney at roughly the same level. Say, the BCI and the state attorney general's office.

+1 on the find.
 

Mike

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rpyne

Regular Member
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Provo, Utah, USA
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This is a recent change. When I applied back in November the SSN was marked as optional. I note that the revision date on the form is now 3/2009.
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
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JoeSparky wrote:
The online form from the BCI website that I linked has a 2008 date on the bottom. So, they need to update the online form!


OK.

The Fairfax County Privacy Council website quotes federal law:

(b) Any Federal, State or local government agency which requests an individual to disclose his social security account number shall inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is solicited, and what uses will be made of it. (emphasis added)

Y'all might also:

1. Check to see that the updated paper form has the additional information required by federal law--by what authority, and whatuses.

2. Make sure the on-line form is fully updated.

http://www.fairfaxcountyprivacycouncil.org/Section7oftheFederalPrivacyAct.html.htm
 

JoeSparky

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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
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rpyne wrote:
This is a recent change. When I applied back in November the SSN was marked as optional. I note that the revision date on the form is now 3/2009.
The form dated 3/2009 is the 2 page form for the ORIGINAL application not the renewal. Also, on the online version there is no indication ANYWHERE that the SSN is optional. If fact the form instructions say to complete ALL entries and incomplete forms WILL NOT BE PROCESSED!

The RENEWAL form (only 1 page ) does not indicate that the SSN is optional either. The online form revision date is 8/2008.

Seems like I get to pursue this further--- and I was hoping that had been addressed already!
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
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Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
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The following is a rough draft to be used on the online comments portion of Utah's Brearue(sp) of Criminal Investigation webpage. Any helpful suggestions regarding wording and formatting would be appreciated. I will also be sending a comparable communication to Utah's Attorney General with regard to this matter and will indicate to BCI that I have notified his office.

"With regard to the application forms available online for both the ORIGINAL CONCEALED FIREARMS PERMIT and FIREARMS PERMIT RENEWAL applications I see that a SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER (SSN) is REQUIRED.

I don't see any indication in the Utah State Code U.C.A. 53-5-704 covering Conceal Firearms Law any authorization from the State Legislature to requiring the disclosure of one's SSN for a Concealed Firearms Permit.

The instructions for each form indicate that ANY unanswered portions will result in the application not being processed. I understand that this is a FEDERAL PRIVACY ACT violation and places UTAH in LEGAL JEPORDY.

Section 7 of PL 930579 [the Federal Privacy Act of 1974, 5 USC 552a note]
Sec. 7 (a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to disclose his social security account number.

(2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not apply with respect to--
(a) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or
(B) any disclosure of a social security number to any Federal, State, or local agency maintaining a system of recoreds in existence and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was reuired under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to verify the indentity of an individual.

(b) Any Federal, State or local government agency which requests an individual to disclose his social security account number shall inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is solicited, and what uses will be made of it.]


I would like to hear back from your office with regard to an anticipated time frame for this matter to be resolved to bring BCI in compliance with both State and Federal law.

As a tax payer I would hate to have my tax dollars paid to someone who pursues a Federal Civil Rights Violation Action in this matter."
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
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Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
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JoeSparky wrote:
The following is a rough draft to be used on the online comments portion of Utah's Bureau of Criminal Investigation webpage. Any helpful suggestions regarding wording and formatting would be appreciated. I will also be sending a comparable communication to Utah's Attorney General with regard to this matter and will indicate to BCI that I have notified his office.

"With regard to the application forms available online for both the ORIGINAL CONCEALED FIREARMS PERMIT and FIREARMS PERMIT RENEWAL applications I see that a SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER (SSN) is REQUIRED.

I don't see any indication in the Utah State Code U.C.A. 53-5-704 covering Conceal Firearms Law any authorization from the State Legislature to requiring the disclosure of one's SSN for a Concealed Firearms Permit.

The instructions for each form indicate that ANY unanswered portions will result in the application not being processed. I understand that this is a FEDERAL PRIVACY ACT violation and places UTAH in LEGAL JEPORDY.

Section 7 of PL 930579 [the Federal Privacy Act of 1974, 5 USC 552a note]
Sec. 7 (a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to disclose his social security account number.

(2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not apply with respect to--
(a) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or
(B) any disclosure of a social security number to any Federal, State, or local agency maintaining a system of recoreds in existence and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was reuired under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to verify the indentity of an individual.

(b) Any Federal, State or local government agency which requests an individual to disclose his social security account number shall inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is solicited, and what uses will be made of it.]
Non-compliance with the federal Privacy Act of 1974 regarding SSN's puts BCI and Utah at risk of expensive litigation.
I would like to hear back from your office with regard to an anticipated time frame for this matter to be resolved to bring BCI in compliance with both State and Federal law.
My suggestions in blue.
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
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Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
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Citizen wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
The following is a rough draft to be used on the online comments portion of Utah's Bureau of Criminal Investigation webpage. Any helpful suggestions regarding wording and formatting would be appreciated. I will also be sending a comparable communication to Utah's Attorney General with regard to this matter and will indicate to BCI that I have notified his office.

"With regard to the application forms available online for both the ORIGINAL CONCEALED FIREARMS PERMIT and FIREARMS PERMIT RENEWAL applications I see that a SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER (SSN) is REQUIRED.

I don't see any indication in the Utah State Code U.C.A. 53-5-704 covering Conceal Firearms Law any authorization from the State Legislature to requiring the disclosure of one's SSN for a Concealed Firearms Permit.

The instructions for each form indicate that ANY unanswered portions will result in the application not being processed. I understand that this is a FEDERAL PRIVACY ACT violation and places UTAH in LEGAL JEPORDY.

Section 7 of PL 93-579 [the Federal Privacy Act of 1974, 5 USC 552a note]
Sec. 7 (a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to disclose his social security account number.

(2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not apply with respect to--
(a) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or
(B) any disclosure of a social security number to any Federal, State, or local agency maintaining a system of recoreds in existence and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was reuired under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to verify the indentity of an individual.

(b) Any Federal, State or local government agency which requests an individual to disclose his social security account number shall inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is solicited, and what uses will be made of it.]
Non-compliance with the federal Privacy Act of 1974 regarding SSN's puts BCI and Utah at risk of expensive litigation.
I would like to hear back from your office with regard to an anticipated time frame for this matter to be resolved to bring BCI in compliance with both State and Federal law.
My suggestions in blue.
And I made a correction of my own...
 
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