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Thread: NO FIREARMS at Hagg Lake

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    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    I was fishing at Hagg Lake today (Cought 3 trout) and I noticed a sign saying no discharging or POSSESSION of firearms able to kill birds or people. It was a Washington County sign and there were Washington County trucks servicing the restrooms, so the lake is obviolously run by the county. I believe this to be an unenforcable sign correct? I don't think they can ban guns at the county level can they? Does anyone know who or would be willing to contact Washington County about the singage?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Any gun bans they have must be BY ORDINANCE, not rule. Washington County does have the ability to ban loaded carry in certain public places or all of them, but it must be codified by statute, and they absolutely DO NOT apply to CHL holders.

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    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    So who should I contact about their signage to get them to re-word it?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Cremator75 wrote:
    So who should I contact about their signage to get them to re-word it?
    Give me a minute jeez! :what:

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    The federal government owns the damn and such up there but I don't know if that includes the lake as well.
    If it is all federal then the signs may be legit.

    For some reason I keep thinking that the Washington county bureau of reclamation owns the reservoir but I can't find anything to confirm that.

    This is a good one to nail down as its a great local place to take kids fishing.

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    The US Department of the Interior, Bureau of Reclamation owns the lake and facilities. However, There has been a move by local governments to have the title transferred to them. I have no idea if that is happening or has happened though.

    I know this doesn't answer the question, but hope it helps.

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    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    PMartin wrote:
    The US Department of the Interior, Bureau of Reclamation owns the lake and facilities.
    If the Bureau of Reclamationowns it, why would they have WA County signs and having them maintain it? Is this a comman pratice?

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    I don't know about this place specifically, but it is not unusual for relatively small installations like this to be managed by the local community that it services. Like weather stations, research laboratory and such.

    There is probably a pretty good chance they just leave the rules up the local law.

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    I am "Borrowing this from Washington county's site....


    Owned by the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, maintained and operated by Washington County, the Park features numerous picnic areas, two boat launching facilities, a fully stocked lake for fishing, more than 15 miles of hiking trails, and observation decks for wildlife and bird watching. Since the creation of Henry Hagg Lake in the mid-1970s, Washington County, the Bureau of Reclamation, and the Washington County Elks Lodges have shared a commitment to make the Park user-friendly to every visitor. Located just 25 miles southwest of Portland, resting at the base of Oregon's beautiful coastal range, Hagg Lake offers visitors the best of outdoor recreational activities.

    Hagg Lake Policies SCOGGINS VALLEY PARK/HAGG LAKE POLICIES

    Park hours are sunrise to sunset.
    Overnight camping is unlawful and not permitted within the Park boundaries.
    It is illegal to hunt, pursue, trap, kill, injure or molest any bird or animal. It is illegal to disturb the habitat of any bird or animal.
    It is illegal to possess or discharge a firearm or weapon capable of injuring any person, bird or animal.
    Motor vehicles must stay on roads and in parking areas.
    Vehicles may only be parked in designated parking areas.
    The park is closed to all off-road vehicles.
    Swimming near boat ramps and docks, or inside the area enclosed by the log boom at the spillway, is prohibited.
    Swimming is prohibited more than 200 feet from shore, or in the area designated for high speed boat use, except for such swimming that is incidental to waterskiing.
    No person shall swim or fish near any boat ramp or boat dock, or inside the area enclosed by the log boom at the spillway.
    Ground fires are prohibited.
    All fires must be confined to Park campstoves, fireplaces, or portable stoves.
    No fire shall be left unattended, and every fire shall be extinguished before its user leaves the Park area.
    No dog, cat or other animal of any kind shall be brought into or kept in the Park area unless confined or on a leash.
    No person shall pick, cut, mutilate, or remove from and Park area flowers, shrubs, foliage, trees (firewood), or plant life of any kind.

    I do not know if it is legal under state law for them to ban firearms for self protection.

    Link to web page for Hagg lake.
    http://www.co.washington.or.us/Suppo...lake/index.cfm

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    Ok, so I called Chris Wayland's office, he is the head of park and rec. for Washington county.

    Hagg lake is on Federal Property, and the county is the one that administers the facility.

    That is why a Federal law is on a county sign.

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    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    So where does that leave us? Is it illegal to CC with a permit? Is that considered the same as a federal courthouse? I know I have heard lots of guns in the woods around the area while I am there, and as far as I know the only roadto get back to those areas is through that property.

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    I would assume it is illegal to carry any firearm in any manner, as federal law preempts the state on federal property.


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    Yap, that what it means.

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    As we all should know by now, just because it says it on a sign, doesn't mean it's really illegal.

    See this thread for how I got confirmation from the Coos Bay BLM district (a Federal agency) that their signage was incorrect.

    You just have to find the appropriate federal laws and take them to task on it. I really doubt firearms are prohibited by federal law at Hagg lake.

    ...Orygunner...

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    OK, from what I can find, the sign is incorrect. Here's the applicable Code of Federal Regulations 43CFR423.30:
    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...rv1_02.tpl#100

    Sec. 423.30 Weapons, firearms, explosives, and fireworks.

    (a) You may possess firearms, ammunition, bows and arrows,
    crossbows, or other projectile firing devices on Reclamation lands and
    waterbodies, provided the firearm, ammunition, or other projectile
    firing device is stowed, transported, and/or carried in compliance with
    applicable Federal, state, and local law, with the following exceptions:
    (1) You must not have a weapon in your possession when at or in a
    Reclamation facility.
    (2) You must comply with any prohibitions or regulations applicable
    to weapons in a special use area established by an authorized official
    under subpart E of this part 423.
    (b) You must not discharge or shoot a weapon unless you are:
    (1) Using a firearm or other projectile firing device lawfully for
    hunting or fishing as allowed under Sec. 423.32, or at
    an authorized shooting or archery range; and
    (2) In compliance with applicable Federal, state, and local law.
    (c) You must not use or possess explosives, or fireworks or
    pyrotechnics of any type, except as allowed by a permit issued pursuant
    to subpart D of this part 423, or in special use areas so designated by
    an authorized official under subpart E of this part 423.
    I would contact the US Bureau of Reclamation, point out this CFR, and confirm it with them, then contact the County about their incorrect signage.

    ...Orygunner...


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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    "I would contact the US Bureau of Reclamation, point out this CFR, and confirm it with them, then contact the County about their incorrect signage."

    ...Orygunner...

    Fed law:
    Sec. 423.30 Weapons, firearms, explosives, and fireworks.
    (a) You may possess firearms, ammunition, bows and arrows,
    crossbows, or other projectile firing devices on Reclamation lands and
    waterbodies, provided the firearm, ammunition, or other projectile
    firing device is stowed, transported, and/or carried in compliance with
    applicable Federal, state, and local law, with the following exceptions:
    (1) You must not have a weapon in your possession when at or in a
    Reclamation facility.



    HL Policy:
    Hagg Lake Policies SCOGGINS VALLEY PARK/HAGG LAKE POLICIES

    Park hours are sunrise to sunset.
    Overnight camping is unlawful and not permitted within the Park boundaries.
    It is illegal to hunt, pursue, trap, kill, injure or molest any bird or animal. It is illegal to disturb the habitat of any bird or animal.
    It is illegal to possess or discharge a firearm or weapon capable of injuring any person, bird or animal.
    M

    I'm sorry, but what's incorrectabout the sign?
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    It seems the link I provided doesn't work right. Here's a better one (I'll fix the link above, too):
    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...rv1_02.tpl#100

    Anyway, Here's the definition of Reclamation Facilities, from 43CFR423.2:
    Reclamation facility means any facility constructed or acquired
    under Federal reclamation law that is situated on Reclamation lands and
    is used or occupied by Reclamation under a lease, easement, right-of-
    way, license, contract, or other arrangement. The term includes, but is
    not limited to, any of the following that are under the jurisdiction of
    or administered by Reclamation: Dams, powerplants, buildings,

    So, according to the law, you cannot have a weapon in your possession while at or in a facility, which means a construction, like a building, dam, powerplant, or similar structures (but not limited to).

    I read that as meaning you're fine as long as you don't go into or around any buildings or other structures used or occupied by the Bureau of Reclaimation. There is no prohibition of firearms on "reclaimation lands."

    Actually, isn't the county "occupying" the facilities? Isn't the county in charge of maintenance, etc.? Then I do not think it would apply.

    It really doesn't matter to me, it's all in violation of the Second Amendment anyway.

    Oh, BTW, I am not a lawyer

    ...Orygunner...

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    Ok, the lake, ground it is on and all the buildings and structure are owned by the federal government.

    The county administers the facility for them.

    Of course what I think would be a far better question is the idea that you are not to have a dangerous weapon.

    So.....how many fishermen up there do not have a fishing knife with them?

    Or a baseball bat? Now there is a weapon that can kill.

    If they permit these, then I think a case could be made to permit CCW holders in, as long as we are not there to hunt or shoot the animals there.

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    I thought if you have a carry permit, it does apply except for fed building, like the post office etc..

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    Rogue40 wrote:
    I thought if you have a carry permit, it does apply except for fed building, like the post office etc..
    Federal property, not just a building. That would include a Military base(Air force, Army, Navy, Marines Cost guard) , The parking lot of the Post office, INS, Social security, FBI, Federal courthouse, Ect, ect, ect.
    You permit is also not valid on Indian reservations without permission of a triable judge or council member.

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    Jeffytune wrote:
    Rogue40 wrote:
    I thought if you have a carry permit, it does apply except for fed building, like the post office etc..
    Federal property, not just a building. That would include a Military base(Air force, Army, Navy, Marines Cost guard) , The parking lot of the Post office, INS, Social security, FBI, Federal courthouse, Ect, ect, ect.
    You permit is also not valid on Indian reservations without permission of a triable judge or council member.
    I may have gone fishing there a few weeks ago and I may or may not have been carrying, but I never saw any signs saying that. But I also never used any of their facilities. That is so screwy, what if a police officer did see you had a weapon? They would arrest you? Ask you to leave?

    Also, what do you do if you need to stop at the post office to drop off a letter in the mail without going into the building, would you actually stop on the street, take your gun off lock and unload it, then proceed into their parking lot? hah! Yeah right!

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Jeffytune wrote:
    Federal property, not just a building. That would include a Military base(Air force, Army, Navy, Marines Cost guard) , The parking lot of the Post office, INS, Social security, FBI, Federal courthouse, Ect, ect, ect.
    You permit is also not valid on Indian reservations without permission of a triable judge or council member.
    Please cite. On what Federal or State law are you basing this?

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    This is all I could find. Everything else I know if is all hear-say.

    http://www.warmsprings.com/images/Wa...305_crimes.pdf

    http://www.ncai.org/ncai/resource/ag...eservation.pdf

    Page 24 pertaining to gambiling facilities





    Ken

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    I find reference to firearms in these sections....do you notice a common theme?

    305.412 Carrying Concealed Weapons.
    (1) For purposes of this section, a dangerous weapon shall be any revolver, pistol or other firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, nay knife, other than an ordinary pocket knife, or any dirk, dagger, sling shot, metal knuckles, explosive or incendiary devices, or any instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person.
    (2)
    Any Indian who shall go about in public places armed with a dangerous weapon concealed upon his person or concealed within his vehicle unless he shall have a permit signed by a Judge of the Tribal Court and countersigned by the Superintendent of the Reservation, shall be deemed guilty of carrying a concealed weapon.

    305.415 Carrying Weapons, When Prohibited.
    -7-
    MLH305 - Chapter 305 - Crimes
    (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of WSTC 305.412
    any Indian other than a duly authorized law enforcement officer who carries any dangerous weapon as defined in WSTC 305.412(1), whether concealed or openly, in any public building, office, store, school or at any public gathering shall be deemed guilty of unlawfully carrying a weapon.
    (2)
    Any Indian who carries or possesses a firearm while under the influence of intoxicants shall be deemed guilty of unlawfully carrying or possessing a firearm.

    And then...at the end....

    305.520 Violations by Non-Indians. Any non-Indian who violates the provisions of this chapter while within the boundaries of the Warm Springs Indian Reservation shall be subject to arrest for violation of state laws, expulsion by court order from the Reservation, or civil penalties otherwise authorized by the Warm Springs Tribal Code.

    What 305.520 is saying, is that...
    1) Can be arrested for breaking a state law (if applicable)
    or
    2) Can be trespassed from the reservation (in accordance similar with private property rights)
    or
    3) Can be fined or cited based upon the tribes civil code. (i.e. speeding ticket, non-criminal matters)

    In other words, they can "expel" you for breaking one of their laws, but cannot arrest you and charge you with a crime unless that action is also a crime according to State or Federal laws, or they can fine you within tribal codes for civil infractions.

    The whole thing is not so easily understood due to the passing of Public Law 280 on August 15 1953. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Law_280

    You can read more about it here...http://www.tribal-institute.org/lists/pl280.htm
    Pay special attention to the "
    Criminal Jurisdiction on Indian Reservations
    " section at the bottom of this page.
    Warning: Be prepared for a headache :quirky

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    I emailed US Bureau of Reclamation to try and find out about the signs. It seems like most responses I get from the government are computer generated, this one not as much. Here is the response I got....I still don't understand what a weapon is. Because according to their code, a toothpick can cause pain and be used as a weapon... From what I can gather about firearms, you must stow it away while entering and leaving the land, because you have to go over the dam (which is a facility) to get in or out, and then get it back out, load it, and holster it. You basically can't go in/on any facility in the park with a firearm in your possession. I'm assuming porta-potty's, docks and such are included as a facility.

    "Henry Hagg Lake (Scoggins Park & Dam) are US Bureau of Reclamation lands administered by Washington County Parks. Please contact Washington County Parks for their policies on lands and at facilities within Washington County Parks jurisdiction.

    The following information responds to your question on (1) definition of a weapon, and (2) on Reclamation's policy regarding weapons and firearms.

    (1) 43 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Part 423.2 Definitions: " Weapon means a firearm or any other instrument or substance designed, used, or which can be used to cause or threaten to cause pain, injury, or death."

    (2) 43 CFR Part 423.30 Weapons, firearms, explosives, and fireworks:
    (a) " You may possess firearms, ammunition, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other projectile firing devices on Reclamation lands and water bodies, provided the firearm, ammunition, or other projectile firing device is stowed, transported, and/or carried in compliance with applicable Federal, State, and local law, with the following exceptions:
    (1) You must not have a weapon in your possession at or in a Reclamation facility."

    For purposes of responding to your question, Scoggins Dam is a Reclamation facility. As stated above, you must not have a weapon in your possession at or on Scoggins Dam.

    If you have additional questions please let me know and I'll ask our law enforcement officer to help you."

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