NO FIREARMS at Hagg Lake

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Jeffytune wrote:

Rogue40 wrote:

I thought if you have a carry permit, it does apply except for fed building, like the post office etc..

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Federal property, not just a building. That would include a Military base(Air force, Army, Navy, Marines Cost guard) , The parking lot of the Post office, INS, Social security, FBI, Federal courthouse, Ect, ect, ect.
You permit is also not valid on Indian reservations without permission of a triable judge or council member.

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I may have gone fishing there a few weeks ago and I may or may not have been carrying, but I never saw any signs saying that. But I also never used any of their facilities. That is so screwy, what if a police officer did see you had a weapon? They would arrest you? Ask you to leave?

Also, what do you do if you need to stop at the post office to drop off a letter in the mail without going into the building, would you actually stop on the street, take your gun off lock and unload it, then proceed into their parking lot? hah! Yeah right!

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Jeffytune wrote:

Federal property, not just a building. That would include a Military base(Air force, Army, Navy, Marines Cost guard) , The parking lot of the Post office, INS, Social security, FBI, Federal courthouse, Ect, ect, ect.
You permit is also not valid on Indian reservations without permission of a triable judge or council member.

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Please cite. On what Federal or State law are you basing this?

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This is all I could find. Everything else I know if is all hear-say.

http://www.warmsprings.com/images/Warmsprings/Tribal_Community/Tribal_Government/Current_Governing_Body/Tribal_Code_Book/Doc_Files/305_crimes.pdf

http://www.ncai.org/ncai/resource/agreements/or_gaming-warm_springs_reservation.pdf

Page 24 pertaining to gambiling facilities





Ken

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I find reference to firearms in these sections....do you notice a common theme?

305.412 Carrying Concealed Weapons.
(1) For purposes of this section, a dangerous weapon shall be any revolver, pistol or other firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, nay knife, other than an ordinary pocket knife, or any dirk, dagger, sling shot, metal knuckles, explosive or incendiary devices, or any instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person.
(2) Any Indian who shall go about in public places armed with a dangerous weapon concealed upon his person or concealed within his vehicle unless he shall have a permit signed by a Judge of the Tribal Court and countersigned by the Superintendent of the Reservation, shall be deemed guilty of carrying a concealed weapon.

305.415 Carrying Weapons, When Prohibited.
-7-
MLH305 - Chapter 305 - Crimes
(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of WSTC 305.412 any Indian other than a duly authorized law enforcement officer who carries any dangerous weapon as defined in WSTC 305.412(1), whether concealed or openly, in any public building, office, store, school or at any public gathering shall be deemed guilty of unlawfully carrying a weapon.
(2) Any Indian who carries or possesses a firearm while under the influence of intoxicants shall be deemed guilty of unlawfully carrying or possessing a firearm.

And then...at the end....

305.520 Violations by Non-Indians. Any non-Indian who violates the provisions of this chapter while within the boundaries of the Warm Springs Indian Reservation shall be subject to arrest for violation of state laws, expulsion by court order from the Reservation, or civil penalties otherwise authorized by the Warm Springs Tribal Code.

What 305.520 is saying, is that...
1) Can be arrested for breaking a state law (if applicable)
or
2) Can be trespassed from the reservation (in accordance similar with private property rights)
or
3) Can be fined or cited based upon the tribes civil code. (i.e. speeding ticket, non-criminal matters)

In other words, they can "expel" you for breaking one of their laws, but cannot arrest you and charge you with a crime unless that action is also a crime according to State or Federal laws, or they can fine you within tribal codes for civil infractions.

The whole thing is not so easily understood due to the passing of Public Law 280 on August 15 1953. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Law_280

You can read more about it here...http://www.tribal-institute.org/lists/pl280.htm
Pay special attention to the "Criminal Jurisdiction on Indian Reservations" section at the bottom of this page.
Warning: Be prepared for a headache :quirky :banghead:

I emailed US Bureau of Reclamation to try and find out about the signs. It seems like most responses I get from the government are computer generated, this one not as much. Here is the response I got....I still don't understand what a weapon is. Because according to their code, a toothpick can cause pain and be used as a weapon... From what I can gather about firearms, you must stow it away while entering and leaving the land, because you have to go over the dam (which is a facility) to get in or out, and then get it back out, load it, and holster it. You basically can't go in/on any facility in the park with a firearm in your possession. I'm assuming porta-potty's, docks and such are included as a facility.

"Henry Hagg Lake (Scoggins Park & Dam) are US Bureau of Reclamation lands administered by Washington County Parks. Please contact Washington County Parks for their policies on lands and at facilities within Washington County Parks jurisdiction.

The following information responds to your question on (1) definition of a weapon, and (2) on Reclamation's policy regarding weapons and firearms.

(1) 43 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Part 423.2 Definitions: " Weapon means a firearm or any other instrument or substance designed, used, or which can be used to cause or threaten to cause pain, injury, or death."

(2) 43 CFR Part 423.30 Weapons, firearms, explosives, and fireworks:
(a) " You may possess firearms, ammunition, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other projectile firing devices on Reclamation lands and water bodies, provided the firearm, ammunition, or other projectile firing device is stowed, transported, and/or carried in compliance with applicable Federal, State, and local law, with the following exceptions:
(1) You must not have a weapon in your possession at or in a Reclamation facility."

For purposes of responding to your question, Scoggins Dam is a Reclamation facility. As stated above, you must not have a weapon in your possession at or on Scoggins Dam.

If you have additional questions please let me know and I'll ask our law enforcement officer to help you."

The kind of "federal facility" they are talking about is like a ranger station, where federally employed individuals have an office and normally work, and it has to beproperly signed...not a dock, or an outhouse, bathroom, or anything like that manner of construction. As there are no federal employes, it is not applicable to any building at Hagg Lake. State law prevails.

Notify the county government (commisioners) that their signage is improper and request it be changed, quote the applicable Federal law.

Not sure what kind of dam is there but unless there are Reclamation personnel working in it then it does not meet the definiton provided earlier of "facility".

Nor do the docks, porta potties, etc.

If it's administered by the county then THEIR personnel will be there. That doesn't qualify within the reclamation dept's definition of "facility".

Contact the county, reference the laws including state and reclamation dept., and inform them that their prohibition violates state law.

MAKE IT A NICE letter. I wrote to a state parks guy about signage at Lost Creek (state facility) that prohibited possession. I got a quick reply that they were aware of it, rangers were told not to attempt to enforce it, and they were waiting on funding for new signs.

I suggested having sticker printed to go over the offending section. He took that to heart and had a bunch of them printed and distributed throughout the state.

A pissed of letter full of attitude probably wouldn't have gotten that kind of reaction.

Now if they say "pound sand", then you get serious. LOL

Who in the county should I contact?

http://www.co.washington.or.us/ContactUs/Find-CONTACTS-by-Department-or-Division.cfm

Their own site, that you linked, provides:

County Organizational chart: http://www.co.washington.or.us/CAO/MissionStrategic/upload/Washington-County-Organization-Chart-2008-2009.pdf which shows that the "County Administrator/Budget Officer" is the next in the "chain of command" for Hagg Lake.

The Board of Commissioners is the next step above that position so I would direct the initial letter to the person holding that position.

This page provides contact information for the Administrative office:
http://www.co.washington.or.us/ContactUs/Find-CONTACTS-by-Department-or-Division.cfm?page=2
Here is the information it provides:
Administrative Office
Address: 155 N First Avenue Suite:300
Hillsboro,OR 97124-3072
Mailstop: 21
Building: Charles D. Cameron Public Services Building Directions and map
Floor: 3
Telephone: 503 846 - 8685
Fax: 503 846 - 4545
e-mail: cao@co.washington.or.us
Web page: www.co.washington.or.us/CAO/

You might also contact the Chair of the Board of Commissioners but the only e-mail contact I could find for them is a web form rather than an e-mail address.

Anybody have photos of the signs? I would like to attach one with the email.