NO FIREARMS at Hagg Lake

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I was fishing at Hagg Lake today (Cought 3 trout) and I noticed a sign saying no discharging or POSSESSION of firearms able to kill birds or people. It was a Washington County sign and there were Washington County trucks servicing the restrooms, so the lake is obviolously run by the county. I believe this to be an unenforcable sign correct? I don't think they can ban guns at the county level can they? Does anyone know who or would be willing to contact Washington County about the singage?

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Any gun bans they have must be BY ORDINANCE, not rule. Washington County does have the ability to ban loaded carry in certain public places or all of them, but it must be codified by statute, and they absolutely DO NOT apply to CHL holders.

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So who should I contact about their signage to get them to re-word it?

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Cremator75 wrote:

So who should I contact about their signage to get them to re-word it?

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Give me a minute jeez! :what:

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The federal government owns the damn and such up there but I don't know if that includes the lake as well.
If it is all federal then the signs may be legit.

For some reason I keep thinking that the Washington county bureau of reclamation owns the reservoir but I can't find anything to confirm that.

This is a good one to nail down as its a great local place to take kids fishing.

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The US Department of the Interior, Bureau of Reclamation owns the lake and facilities. However, There has been a move by local governments to have the title transferred to them. I have no idea if that is happening or has happened though.

I know this doesn't answer the question, but hope it helps.

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PMartin wrote:

The US Department of the Interior, Bureau of Reclamation owns the lake and facilities.

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If the Bureau of Reclamationowns it, why would they have WA County signs and having them maintain it? Is this a comman pratice?

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I don't know about this place specifically, but it is not unusual for relatively small installations like this to be managed by the local community that it services. Like weather stations, research laboratory and such.

There is probably a pretty good chance they just leave the rules up the local law.

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I am "Borrowing this from Washington county's site....


Owned by the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, maintained and operated by Washington County, the Park features numerous picnic areas, two boat launching facilities, a fully stocked lake for fishing, more than 15 miles of hiking trails, and observation decks for wildlife and bird watching. Since the creation of Henry Hagg Lake in the mid-1970s, Washington County, the Bureau of Reclamation, and the Washington County Elks Lodges have shared a commitment to make the Park user-friendly to every visitor. Located just 25 miles southwest of Portland, resting at the base of Oregon's beautiful coastal range, Hagg Lake offers visitors the best of outdoor recreational activities.

Hagg Lake Policies SCOGGINS VALLEY PARK/HAGG LAKE POLICIES

Park hours are sunrise to sunset.
Overnight camping is unlawful and not permitted within the Park boundaries.
It is illegal to hunt, pursue, trap, kill, injure or molest any bird or animal. It is illegal to disturb the habitat of any bird or animal.
It is illegal to possess or discharge a firearm or weapon capable of injuring any person, bird or animal.
Motor vehicles must stay on roads and in parking areas.
Vehicles may only be parked in designated parking areas.
The park is closed to all off-road vehicles.
Swimming near boat ramps and docks, or inside the area enclosed by the log boom at the spillway, is prohibited.
Swimming is prohibited more than 200 feet from shore, or in the area designated for high speed boat use, except for such swimming that is incidental to waterskiing.
No person shall swim or fish near any boat ramp or boat dock, or inside the area enclosed by the log boom at the spillway.
Ground fires are prohibited.
All fires must be confined to Park campstoves, fireplaces, or portable stoves.
No fire shall be left unattended, and every fire shall be extinguished before its user leaves the Park area.
No dog, cat or other animal of any kind shall be brought into or kept in the Park area unless confined or on a leash.
No person shall pick, cut, mutilate, or remove from and Park area flowers, shrubs, foliage, trees (firewood), or plant life of any kind.

I do not know if it is legal under state law for them to ban firearms for self protection.

Link to web page for Hagg lake.
http://www.co.washington.or.us/Support_Services/Facilities/Parks/Hagglake/index.cfm

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Ok, so I called Chris Wayland's office, he is the head of park and rec. for Washington county.

Hagg lake is on Federal Property, and the county is the one that administers the facility.

That is why a Federal law is on a county sign.

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So where does that leave us? Is it illegal to CC with a permit? Is that considered the same as a federal courthouse? I know I have heard lots of guns in the woods around the area while I am there, and as far as I know the only roadto get back to those areas is through that property.

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I would assume it is illegal to carry any firearm in any manner, as federal law preempts the state on federal property.

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Yap, that what it means.

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As we all should know by now, just because it says it on a sign, doesn't mean it's really illegal.

See this thread for how I got confirmation from the Coos Bay BLM district (a Federal agency) that their signage was incorrect.

You just have to find the appropriate federal laws and take them to task on it. I really doubt firearms are prohibited by federal law at Hagg lake.

...Orygunner...

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OK, from what I can find, the sign is incorrect. Here's the applicable Code of Federal Regulations 43CFR423.30:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=db42dd4aa71a12c403cdd16b469a2af3&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title43/43cfrv1_02.tpl#100

Sec. 423.30 Weapons, firearms, explosives, and fireworks.

(a) You may possess firearms, ammunition, bows and arrows,
crossbows, or other projectile firing devices on Reclamation lands and
waterbodies, provided the firearm, ammunition, or other projectile
firing device is stowed, transported, and/or carried in compliance with
applicable Federal, state, and local law, with the following exceptions:
(1) You must not have a weapon in your possession when at or in a
Reclamation facility.
(2) You must comply with any prohibitions or regulations applicable
to weapons in a special use area established by an authorized official
under subpart E of this part 423.
(b) You must not discharge or shoot a weapon unless you are:
(1) Using a firearm or other projectile firing device lawfully for
hunting or fishing as allowed under Sec. 423.32, or at
an authorized shooting or archery range; and
(2) In compliance with applicable Federal, state, and local law.
(c) You must not use or possess explosives, or fireworks or
pyrotechnics of any type, except as allowed by a permit issued pursuant
to subpart D of this part 423, or in special use areas so designated by
an authorized official under subpart E of this part 423.

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I would contact the US Bureau of Reclamation, point out this CFR, and confirm it with them, then contact the County about their incorrect signage.

...Orygunner...

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"I would contact the US Bureau of Reclamation, point out this CFR, and confirm it with them, then contact the County about their incorrect signage."

...Orygunner...

Fed law:
Sec. 423.30 Weapons, firearms, explosives, and fireworks.
(a) You may possess firearms, ammunition, bows and arrows,
crossbows, or other projectile firing devices on Reclamation lands and
waterbodies, provided the firearm, ammunition, or other projectile
firing device is stowed, transported, and/or carried in compliance with
applicable Federal, state, and local law, with the following exceptions:
(1) You must not have a weapon in your possession when at or in a
Reclamation facility.


HL Policy:
Hagg Lake Policies SCOGGINS VALLEY PARK/HAGG LAKE POLICIES

Park hours are sunrise to sunset.
Overnight camping is unlawful and not permitted within the Park boundaries.
It is illegal to hunt, pursue, trap, kill, injure or molest any bird or animal. It is illegal to disturb the habitat of any bird or animal.
It is illegal to possess or discharge a firearm or weapon capable of injuring any person, bird or animal.
M

I'm sorry, but what's incorrect about the sign?

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It seems the link I provided doesn't work right. Here's a better one (I'll fix the link above, too):
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=db42dd4aa71a12c403cdd16b469a2af3&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title43/43cfrv1_02.tpl#100

Anyway, Here's the definition of Reclamation Facilities, from 43CFR423.2:

Reclamation facility means any facility constructed or acquired
under Federal reclamation law that is situated on Reclamation lands and
is used or occupied by Reclamation under a lease, easement, right-of-
way, license, contract, or other arrangement. The term includes, but is
not limited to, any of the following that are under the jurisdiction of
or administered by Reclamation: Dams, powerplants, buildings,

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So, according to the law, you cannot have a weapon in your possession while at or in a facility, which means a construction, like a building, dam, powerplant, or similar structures (but not limited to).

I read that as meaning you're fine as long as you don't go into or around any buildings or other structures used or occupied by the Bureau of Reclaimation. There is no prohibition of firearms on "reclaimation lands."

Actually, isn't the county "occupying" the facilities? Isn't the county in charge of maintenance, etc.? Then I do not think it would apply.

It really doesn't matter to me, it's all in violation of the Second Amendment anyway.

Oh, BTW, I am not a lawyer

...Orygunner...

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Ok, the lake, ground it is on and all the buildings and structure are owned by the federal government.

The county administers the facility for them.

Of course what I think would be a far better question is the idea that you are not to have a dangerous weapon.

So.....how many fishermen up there do not have a fishing knife with them?

Or a baseball bat? Now there is a weapon that can kill.

If they permit these, then I think a case could be made to permit CCW holders in, as long as we are not there to hunt or shoot the animals there.

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I thought if you have a carry permit, it does apply except for fed building, like the post office etc..

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Rogue40 wrote:

I thought if you have a carry permit, it does apply except for fed building, like the post office etc..

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Federal property, not just a building. That would include a Military base(Air force, Army, Navy, Marines Cost guard) , The parking lot of the Post office, INS, Social security, FBI, Federal courthouse, Ect, ect, ect.
You permit is also not valid on Indian reservations without permission of a triable judge or council member.