9-41-270 charges....

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I'llstate Im a bad writer first so bear with me , especialy expressive writing

I was shopping at a local antique/handcrafts consigmentstore when a women shopper asked me if I was carrying a gun, I replied politely yes and a knife and slid my coat back slightly show them ( midcalf length camo duster) she seemed more curious then intemidated and was impressed when I handed her my knife ( safely ,handle first ) and commented on the construction and the beauty of the wood . This was infront of the register with an employee present we talked abit about my weapons and she asked me Had i ever used them , I said the gun no but i use the knife regularly and gave a few examples one of note was an occasion in the past when I used it to dig a truck out of the sand we talked abit about how she used to carry a boot dagger in the past and the guy at the register showed his batton he carries and there was some conversation about this I talked abit about me sidearm and its age (Colt police Positive made in1915) and she asked if I was worried about it being unsafe I told her no , and a withdrew it opened the cylinder and tried to show her the saftey bar inside the frame under the hammer, I let her see one of the rounds but never handed over the Colt , I reholstered it with it drawing no negative commentary and kept the muzzle in a safe direction at all times, When she and her friend left they were in a positive mood and I felt I had "humanized" myself and my arms fairly well and after paying for An old Stanley spokeshave that caught my eye I thanked the employee and left ....

This store sells knives and has an old musket is for sale Ive seen a guy bring in a 410 revolver /ammo and show it to the men who run it , and Ive shown them atleast my knife before with only positive results and have talked about renting space there

I got to the stoplight saw a patrol car pass and was about to cross the street when I heard an" excuse me can I talk toyou sir" from behind me and turned to face a cop who asked if i was carrying to which I replied yes , then asked if I had a permit , as several more showed up he said someone had called the ploice and explained they get calls even about off duty officers carrying, I handed my permit over to one who asked for it and talked with one the original officer politely about guns andcarry abit. Then the officer asked me about my permit being somewhat out of date ( 4months) and why I hadnt renewed I admited I had been busy and abit strapped for cash and was trying to start a woodcrafting business and he said he understood .

This Officer then asked me " werent you involved in a shootout with the FBI a few years back ? " I replied it wasnt a shootout I was unarmed and shot in the back , to which he replied replied understand when it involves police everthings a shootout and I once again stated I was unarmed , and unfortunantly my lawyer backed out on my lawsuit .

They took my gun and knife and said they were just gonna hold them and I would get them back then a few minutes later one of them said I was being arrested for conceal carry they called a van from the jail and I was tooken to the police station and booked after about 1/2 to 1 hour a was released and told I was being charged with 9-41-270 though not given a reason and given an arraignment date for may 5th

I asked was my knife being returned ? and stated I considered my arms articles of my religion and philosophy (Odinist, Volkisch) I was told my mother was waiting for me and when I talked to her she said someone had called the cops that had worked there .

Im certain it wasnt the cashier , Im thinking it was a guy (consigner) I had seen carrying up a shelf , that I offered to help bring up the stairs earlier as he had a cellphone on his side to my memory

I was hoping I would be sent a document stating the reason charges but none has arrived in the week since , I did nothing intentionally intimidated and my actions were in intention to promote understanding and nothing I consider unsafe , Ive had dozens of simliar exchanges over the years with people and 95% of the time there positive

Needless to say with my adrenaline crashing and from the experience coupled with the removal of items that I in many ways need to soothe my moderate case of PTSD from an "exemplary act of FBI training" I got home and curled up with my cat and a rifle

Anyways for the time Being Im back to OC .....

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If the charge was for carry concealed it would have been a violation of 9.41.050. It sounds like they charged you for displaying your firearm.

The only question I have is why on earth would you pull out your pistol in a store to show somebody??

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Sounds like they are going after you for brandishing.

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Display and unlawful carry

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

gross misdemeanor

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The word brandishing doesn't appear in any Washington statute.

Removing the gun from the holster was emminently stupid.

This is the second account from this poster mentioning removing his firearm from the holster in a public place to show someone.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=24625&forum_id=55&highlight=Lord_Kalen

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j2l3 wrote:

The word brandishing doesn't appear in any Washington statute.

Removing the gun from the holster was emminently stupid. 

This is the second account from this poster mentioning removing his firearm from the holster in a public place to show someone.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=24625&forum_id=55&highlight=Lord_Kalen

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I am not the expert on WA laws like you guys, we do have brandishing in ID but it's basically the same thing, unlawful carry and display of a firearm with emphasis on display.

OP: if you are going to show off your weapons, do it privately. It'll save you a lot of trouble and keep things like this from happening. Show off fail on your part. A little common sense would go a long way. Also, why would you carry concealed with out a valid CPL?

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the river was a different day and many people target practice there , I guess ive had these happen alot of the years and this is the only time someone has really taken issue and never said anything to me personally , As I stated about 95% percent of the people Ive ever dealt with in this fashion the experience is positive , and I never do anything of the sort in a crowded area but have on occasion in an area not overly public and when it seems that theres no one around that is not in the group involved.

It is hard for me to explain but in my experience allowing people to see , and on occasion when in a safe setting hold a weaponand to talk to them increases there understanding and acceptence of them , its not something Id ever do on an open street , but perhaps Ive gotten abit too comfortable about these practices.

Its very common for me to do with my knifes and the 10 years carried them as I make them personally and most people come to the understanding there more tools then something malicious.

And as for not renewing my CPL , I hadnt gotten around to it , and have been juggling expenses and trying to start up a business nearly from scratch

And as for Carrying concealed with it abit out of date . It was for convenience and to avoid causing alarm , and when I get into a habit or daily routine its hard for me to break from it , the camo duster its almostbecome a part of me and a tool to me.

I did nothing with the intent to Intimidate , and nothing I consider endangering anyone or anything and will fight these charges

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What happened with the shootout exactly?

And look up the case of State v. Spencer. It sets the criteria for what a violation of 9.41.270. There's also State v. Cassad, which is not precendential, that demonstrates how it is used.

If the complaint was anonymous, it will not hold up in court. (I think that was Florida v. Royer, but I could be mistaken.) Anonymous calls do not give LEO reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
If they do have a real complaint, then they (I am assuming here) would have to have this person testify in court as to why a store clerk and two customers showing each other weapons would cause alarm, in the context of State v Spencer.

You should definitely look into all the case law you can, but this seems like an easy defense.

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I believe and I could be wrong but that there has to be intent to intimidate to be charged with what you were charged with. Also in this incident he was on private property. You might want to get the person who owns the store or who you were talking to to make a statement for you.

What I don't understand is why the cops didn't charge with concealing without a cpl if yours had expired and you were concealing.

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

I believe and I could be wrong but that there has to be intent to intimidate to be charged with what you were charged with. Also in this incident he was on private property. You might want to get the person who owns the store or who you were talking to to make a statement for you.

What I don't understand is why the cops didn't charge with concealing without a cpl if yours had expired and you were concealing.

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It does not matter if it is private property. If the courts/jury believe his actions warranted the cause for alarm or safety of other then that is all that matters. Only time will tell in this case.

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I agree with j213.It is beyond stupid and simply showing off to unholster a weapon in a public area of any kind .I have been asked on occasion by others equally outside their minds to see my gun.Under no circumstance does my side arm come out of it's holster ,unless under a direct threat ,at the range or even the gun shop where I handed over to have a problem looked at.Or inside my home where I have cleared and handed over my weapon to a friend to look at.NOT in public

Those who do these things set us all back to the dark ages and would question someones competence to carry a firearm.I was in Vietnam as were many others and I know many vets as well that get tired of hearing PTSD as an excuse for stupid.

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I sympathize with your plight - this has to be extremely unnerving, if not downright scary. I completely understand the logic of helping people overcome their hoplophobia through tactile therapy, and I let people examine my firearms at the range all the time.

I'd even chip in for a defense fund, except for two things:

1) Unfortunately, unholstering the firearm in public was probably illegal, and at least irresponsible from a safety point of view. (I've got my fingers crossed that your situation doesn't meet all three criteria for .270, though)

2) When your CPL is expired, it's EXPIRED, which means it doesn't work anymore. Which means you CAN'T CARRY CONCEALED. I understand financial issues (I'm a starving debt-ridden student myself), but expiration dates apply to us poor entrepreneurs as well. I understand carrying anyway, as your life's more important than a misdemeanor for CC without a license, but you've got to be prepared to accept that misdemeanor if you get discovered.

Sucks to be you, dude. Hope it works out!

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I am wondering why you would be handing over your gun to some random person you meet on street just because he want to see a gun...even it is unloaded and clear. Who knows he is doing that only to unarm you once your weapon is in his hands he can take any offenssive action. I do not know why many people carry guns and still live in this sitting duck awareness state. I would never never ever do this unless I am carrying a backup gun with me and is cocked and lockedand ofcourse is within reach without fumbling in my pockets.

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I have always wondered what would happen if I OC/CCed all my guns at once. Would I be invincible?

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antispam540 wrote:

I have always wondered what would happen if I OC/CCed all my guns at once. Would I be invincible?

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Only in your own mind.....

:shock:

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Personally I don't show anyone my weapons if I'm carrying them. At best I'll show a pocket knife to someone. I don't carry a fixed blade, but I sure as heck wouldn't pull one out to show a clerk in a store if they wanted, let alone a gun.

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A gun is like a penis - you just don't fondle it in public.

That is GOOD! I have to find a way to say that to my wife in casual conversation.

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You know, I'm going to go with "it was a bad idea". While you weren't really being any kind of threat. All it takes is one anti gun idiot to call the cops to draw attention to you. Then if you do something like pull you gun, it just makes it easier for the cops.

When people ask about what I'm carrying, I tell them. If they want to see it, I turn my hip so they can see it in the holster, but I don't pull it out. If I'm at a range I might consider it, but not at a store.

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I dunno about you guys, but if I am CCing, and someone asks me if I am carrying, I would ask why. The whole point of CC is to carry unnoticed. If someone knows I am CCing, theres a problem with how I am CCing (It must be sticking out or something).

Second off, I would not "flash" my gun to people even if they asked. All it would take is for some anti-gun person to say you were doing it to intimidate them. Taking a gun out of your holster in public is a huge no-no.Thats all the cops need to put you in cuffs and the RCW's won't protect youthere.

On top of that you have an expired CC. I understand that you are in a money crunch, who isn't? Don't CC with expired permits. You don't want a mark on your record because of such a simple thing. You wouldn't drive with an expired license would you?

Everett's not the safest city either. The cops there probably would have taken you down (Arrested) if they saw you in the store with your gun out. Too many public shootings already to put these guys on edge, and what you were doing was illegal. They would have been in their right to toss you around a bit. Don'tgive them (People like Mayor Knuckles of Seattle)reasons to try to take our rights away.

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If I read 9.41.098 1A correctly it looks like the out of date cplwould have been a non issue except for now he may not get it reinstated if the 270 charges stick.