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Thread: Two against One / An OC Discussion

  1. #1
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    Yesterday (04/26/09) My wife and I were at the Indian Pow Wow at Red Wing park in Virginia Beach. I was buying something from one of the vender's, when he saw a man OC'ing. The vendor then said why does he have a gun? I told him that he had the right in Virginia to OC. The vendor said he knows it's legal, but he can not carry in arestaurant that sells alcohol.

    Of course I let him know that was not correct and that you can OC ina restaurant that serves alcohol. We talked for a few minutes, he insisted that he was more knowledgeable than me because he worked for the City of Virginia Beach (never said what he did for the city).


    But to make things worse, a Newport News Leo was standing there and took the side of the vendor!:shock:

    I think I might have pissed off the Leo when I told him that he need to re-read the law. It was a no win situation, I was right but it's hard to change the mind of two people who were wrong but agreeing witheach another.

    I gave them both OC cards that I carry with me, to help and give them more information of the subject. The Leo kept his, but to my surprise when I got home the vendor put the card in my bag.

    I eventually left because my wife was getting mad because of the ignorance of the two people. She does not carry, but she knows I was correct in what I was telling the two men.

    Could I have handled the situation differently? I'm new to OC'ing, but can someone give me some feed back on the situation (criticism or encouragement). It's not going to hurt my feelings, I just want to be better at handling situations like this, so any comment is welcome.





  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Since the two clearly were convinced they were right ("don't bother me with the facts. My mind's made up.) the only way you might have made them doubt their position would be to give them some bit of official literature that might have caused them to go home and investigate this on their own, then realize they were wrong. They wouldn't ever want to admit that publicly when talking to you. I usually carry copies of the letters from the VCDL website regarding open carry in restaurants. They are on State Police letterheads. You can print them out and keep copies with you to show people who refuse to accept your verbal arguments.

    You're new to OC, so you will find out how frustrating it can be to deal with hard-headed, opinionated people. Nonetheless, we have made progress over the last few years educating people about the legality of all of this. I can't tell you how many friends, neighbors and co-workers get this amazed look on their faces when I tell them about the legality of OC, and especially of the NECCESITY of OC'ing if in a restaurant that serves alcohol. ("No way !! You actually have to do that to be legal??!! That's really allowed in Virginia??" "Yup")

  3. #3
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Sad, but not surprising.

    The "restaurant carry" issue is about as well understood as the "gun show loophole" by the general public, thanks to the MSM. I've only seen a few references to "under current law..." statements about the legality of OC in Restaurants That Serve Alcohol (RTSA) in the news, and they were usually buried several paragraphs into the story.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    When I was young and my Grandpa was alive He would take me hunting with him quite offen. Well at one of the clubs we hunted with there was an old cartoon picture on the wall that said.

    " Dont argue with a fool. Bystanders can not tell which oneis the fool! "

    Well that is close to what it said. Anyhow that stuck with me these years and I remind my friends now and then.

    So remember when you are informing someone who already knows everything just leave it alone...

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to check out the VCDL website for the letters you mentioned.

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    Hopefully the LEO will do a little further research, or at least ask his Sgt. at the next briefing, and you will have saved some other hapless OC'er an unpleasant encounter with Newport News law enforcement.

    I'd say you did a good job!

  7. #7
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I love explaining the restaurant statute to my students, as well as the one about carrying while under the influence. Its always good for a laugh.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    I wonder how it would work to just say, "You are right. You cannot carry a concealed handgun in a restaurant licensed to serve alcohol. But the statute, VA Code 18.2-308J3, says nothing about carrying openly."

    Since he has probably actually never read the statute himself, it should plant the seed of doubt and cause him to look it up.

    This is amethod that accidentally worked out almost exactly that way in the past. Cops barged in. Demanded OC'd guns get concealed. OCers said can't. One cop goes and looks it up for himself later. Tells all his pals about it. We know this event as the Tony's Incident.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    noah wrote:

    " Dont argue with a fool. Bystanders can not tell which oneis the fool! "


    Proverbs 23:9
    Speak not in the ears of afool, for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

    Proverbs 29:11
    A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.

  10. #10
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    I had a similar situation many years ago in Matthews County. An officer there told me that my CC permit was only good in the locality from which I got it. I told him that it was issued by the Circuit Court of Virginia and it was good throughout the entire state but he disagreed. I stopped wasting my time with him since he was not giving me a hard time, just "educating" me.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Wasn't there a ABC-on restaurant nearby you could have taken him to, so he could call the cops & ask them to arrest you? Surely he would believe the Dispatcher, wouldn't he?

    Of course, if the Dispatcher got the law wrong you would end up richer (see Danbus's bank deposits ).

    Seriously, why bother if they refuse to listen. Walk away while muttering about how crazy both of them are.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  12. #12
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    skidmark wrote:
    Wasn't there a ABC-on restaurant nearby you could have taken him to, so he could call the cops & ask them to arrest you? Surely he would believe the Dispatcher, wouldn't he?

    Of course, if the Dispatcher got the law wrong you would end up richer (see Danbus's bank deposits ).

    Seriously, why bother if they refuse to listen. Walk away while muttering about how crazy both of them are.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Most of us Dispatchers are gun owners and support gun rights, just look at me. As a Dispatcher you know *everything* that goes wrong in your city because we get all the calls and live the worst moments of people's lives before the officers get there. We question thoroughly and don't arbitrarily enter cases for everything. We are more aware of the need for self defense then most others.

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    Not to hijack your thread--I encountered one just as bad last night while eating dinner at a restaurant.

    I was talking to a couple sitting next to me (retired, in their 60s), when he started talking about gun shows.

    He insisted that, when selling guns at a gunshow, a licensed dealer has the option as to whether or not they pull a background check!!! And this guy has his CHP.

    I (politely) told him that obeying Federal law is always 'optional,' as long as you're willing to lose your license and go to prison.

    Isaid that a person-to-person transaction does not require a background check, at least he agreed tha this was a very small percentage of transactions, and did not tell me that we needed to 'close the loophole.'

    Until last night I always took it for granted that someone who went through the process of getting their CHP was assured to be knowledgeable on at least the important laws. I now realize that some folks take their class, fill out the application, andpursue their knowledge no further.

    Frustrating.

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Perhaps one of the hardest things for many people to do is to admit they're wrong or misinformed. Once faced with data, or discourse, which counters their stance, many will become quite defensive of their own inaccurate position and refuse to admit that they are not correct. We see it many times on this website, too.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with admitting that you do not know something. That you are in error. That your argument has no basis in fact. Real men can do this... others simple continue to argue the indefensable.

    Sometimes it's best to just let some people stew in their own ignorance since ignorance is its own reward.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  15. #15
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    I don't argue with anti's. They are generally idiots.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Take WHAT class? I'm still learning here!
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  17. #17
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    Dispatcher wrote:
    Most of us Dispatchers are gun owners and support gun rights, just look at me. As a Dispatcher you know *everything* that goes wrong in your city because we get all the calls and live the worst moments of people's lives before the officers get there. We question thoroughly and don't arbitrarily enter cases for everything. We are more aware of the need for self defense then most others.
    I feel a little sarcasm...

    But, as a dispatcher, I fully agree!!

    Carl

  18. #18
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    not surprised that the "citizen" was that ignorant of the law, even though he allegedly worked for the city. What is surprising is that the NN LEO was that ignorant of the law.

  19. #19
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    Best way to explain this is say "open carry is required per 18.2(J3)."

  20. #20
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Most of us Dispatchers are gun owners and support gun rights, just look at me. As a Dispatcher you know *everything* that goes wrong in your city because we get all the calls and live the worst moments of people's lives before the officers get there. We question thoroughly and don't arbitrarily enter cases for everything. We are more aware of the need for self defense then most others.
    BLATANT THREAD HIJACK BELOW:

    So Dispatcher could you please explain why, every time I hear a 911 call where the victim tells the dispatcher, "I just shot the burglar," the dispatcher says, "You shot the burglar?" with a certain tone in his voice similar to, "A green alien just burst out of your chest and scurried across the floor?" like firearms were banned 20 years ago and you have just admitted to a Class 1 Felony.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  21. #21
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    Yeah - after having told the two lunkheads, go over to the guy who's carrying and give him your name, address and phone number, just in case he needs a witness. *
    Legally, your having told the two is all that's required to put them both on notice, but the cop especially has a duty to check and make sure after that to be sure he's right. *It's not your job to persuade them, it's their job to be sure they're right before they do anything to the guy carrying the gun. *Since you gave them clear warning, if they mess with the guy in any way after that, he's got a lawsuit against them.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  22. #22
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Shoulda told them both to go find a trooper and ask him.



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