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Thread: Officer has ND while on school campus

  1. #1
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    Just heard about this on a TV report. Parents are upset that he had one 'in the pipe'. Police are now having to defend that practice.



    http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...ng0424-ON.html

    Chief: Tolleson officer's self-inflicted shooting a 'freakish accident'
    24 commentsby Megan Gordon - Apr. 24, 2009 01:35 PM
    The Arizona Republic


    Tolleson police said the armed school resource officer who shot himself in the finger this week never took his weapon out of its holster and deemed the shooting a "freakish accident."

    Officer Ray Granillo's gun discharged inadvertently Wednesday, as students at Arizona Desert Elementary School were being dismissed. He was shot in his right middle finger and is recovering at St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix.

    After investigating the incident, Tolleson police Chief Larry Rodriguez outlined this series of events:

    • Granillo was dressed in plain clothes because of early dismissal. His .40-caliber Glock was holstered onto his belt.


    • Granillo unlocked the gate outside the cafeteria in preparation for early release.


    • After tucking the keys into his pants, one key was logged in an opening between the leather holster and trigger.


    • Granillo cupped his hand underneath the holster and "tugged up" to readjust his belt.


    • Enough pressure was applied between the trigger, key and leather to cause the trigger to fire.

    "It was a very strange and very unusual situation," Rodriguez said. "When we got to him, the gun was still the in holster . . . and the spent cartridge was still in the weapon."

    Officers found a small scratch on the trigger, corroborating the investigation's theory, Rodriguez said.

    Tolleson Elementary School District officials are holding a community meeting Monday to answer any questions parents may have.

    "Our big issue right now is student safety," said Superintendent Bill Christensen. "We want to make sure our parents and our community members feel safe."

    Granillo, 57, is expected to return to the school, Rodriguez said. He noted all school resource officers carry loaded guns because "that's their function" at the school.

    Many districts have a partnership with local law enforcement agencies to allow school resource officers on campus.

    The Goodyear Police Department partners with all the school districts within the city, and each school has its own resource office.

    Litchfield Elementary School District also pays for an officer at Wigwam Creek Middle School.

    "The program is important because the officers serve as a resource to the school," said Rani Collins, Arizona Department of Education's School Safety Program administrator "They serve as role models to the students, showing the human side of law enforcement as well as deterring crime on campus."

    Tolleson Elementary School District pays 100 percent of Granillo $65,000 annual salary through the state-funded School Safety Program Grant.

    Started in 1994, the program today gives $14 million to 74 districts and charter schools across Arizona.

    The Tolleson district's program receives $140,000 per year for two officers, one at Arizona Desert and the other at Porfirio H. Gonzales Elementary School, both in Tolleson. Granillo has been a resource officer for two years. He teaches anti-bullying and drug-prevention courses on the K-8 campus.

    "(Granillo) is seen as the safe person for parent and students," Christensen said. "He's very popular."

  2. #2
    Regular Member MI-copperhead's Avatar
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    Another reason I dont like Glocks.
    "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death !" Patrick Henry

  3. #3
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    More AD's with those things than any other it seems. I don't like 'em either.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    More AD's with those things than any other it seems. I don't like 'em either.
    +1

    My 1911 has two separate safety devices, either of which is capable of preventing such an incident without relying upon the other.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    All the more reason to carry 1911's... (YAY!)

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    I don't buy the story. For one thing, any well designed holster prevents anything (fingers, keys, etc.)from entering the trigger guard when the weapon is in the holster.

    Unless the weapon was unholstered in a pocket and you put keys in with it, I can't seea dischargehappening.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Armed4Life wrote:
    I don't buy the story. For one thing, any well designed holster prevents anything (fingers, keys, etc.)from entering the trigger guard when the weapon is in the holster.
    Exactly. I don't like Glocks for this reason and others, but a good holster will act as a safety for a Glock. One way or another, this guy screwed up. :?
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    After tucking the keys into his pants, one key was logged in an opening between the leather holster and trigger.
    Huh? Doesn't pass the smell test. We have a Police officer who doesn't use a positive retention Key Clip?

    And I would like to see his gun holster where there's room to insert a key next to the gun trigger.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    Armed4Life wrote:
    I don't buy the story.* For one thing, any well designed holster prevents anything (fingers, keys, etc.)*from entering the trigger guard when the weapon is in the holster.
    Exactly. I don't like Glocks for this reason and others, but a good holster will act as a safety for a Glock. One way or another, this guy screwed up. :?
    Whatever, people can talk all the want about "the 'only' safety being 'between your ears'", but any mechanical device which turns a mistake from an ND to a locked trigger is fine by me.

    But yes, doubtless this guy screwed up. People do that. It's why we have safety devices, like seatbelts. Not to rely on, but in case you do screw up.

    And it's not like the lack of a safety forces Glock owners to be so careful they never ND.

    The way I see it, safety devices that assume human ineptitude are a good thing. It's a bit different with regulation, but I don't believe very many people intentionally get into car accidents "just because they were wearing a seatbelt".

  10. #10
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Many probably remember what happened to me when my CZ fell on the hammer and shot me. In that case, I screwed up, because I allowed the muzzle to cover something I wasn't willing to destroy. This cop did that too, so there is no doubt he can be blamed for what happened. However, if a key can pull a trigger that easily, I consider it the fault of bad equipment too. His holster for sure, and arguably the trigger mechanism itself.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  11. #11
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    Most cops (about 95%) of the ones I've seen here in town use the Safariland SLS... I tried to get a key lodged into mine.. several different ways (yes the gun was made safe before I tried). No matter how I tried to get the key in- it would not go past the trigger guard, much less anywhere near any point where the trigger could be pulled.

    It does say he was in plain clothes that day so perhaps a less secure holster? I just don't see it. I'll try with my Galco when I get back home.

  12. #12
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    "Our big issue right now is student safety," said Superintendent Bill Christensen. "We want to make sure our parents and our community members feel safe."


    Liberal Alert...

    He wants the community to feel safe. Hell, we carry guns because we want to BE SAFE!

  13. #13
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    Notso wrote:
    Tolleson Elementary School District pays 100 percent of Granillo $65,000 annual salary through the state-funded School Safety Program Grant.
    $65,000 dollars for one armed man, each year? :shock:

    They could buy 150 GLOCKS for that price, and arm 150 employees!

    What a waste...
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Notso wrote:
    Tolleson Elementary School District pays 100 percent of Granillo $65,000 annual salary through the state-funded School Safety Program Grant.
    $65,000 dollars for one armed man, each year? :shock:

    They could buy 150 GLOCKS for that price, and arm 150 employees!

    What a waste...
    I noticed that too. He's paid $65K and armed to play Mr. Policeman in a school.

    Before I retired, I was paid somewhat more as a unarmed Lieutenant to ride herd on 3,200 inmates and over 1,500 staff and support in a state maximum security run prison.

    For a brief period of time I supervised a cellblock full of Juveniles, a time I would like to forget.

    That Tolleson Elementary cop can keep his job. I wouldn't do it for twice his normal pay.



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    I KNEW it was a Glock! It's ALWAYS a Glock!

  16. #16
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    Seems like a bunch of Glock hater's out there. Glock is a excellent handgun speaking from experience. I guess when you are the most popular (4 million in service today) you have a lot more that don't like you. It's not a pretty handgun by any means, but it is reliable.

    Regarding this article, the Glock will not go off without you pulling the trigger. If you would like to add more safety features to the Glock you can, for those out there that are not aware of that. There are multiple videos on the Internet proving this fact.

    Personally I have yet to fire a gun I don't like other than the hi-point c-9. I am sure there are some out there that are no good, I just haven't found one as of yet.

  17. #17
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    The last thing we need is mandatory manual safeties. I know most of you here aren't advocating that but with people blaming the gun it may appear that way to an outside observer.


    I wouldn't want to carry a gun with a safety. A gun should be carried in such a way that objects cannot get into the trigger guard, even if there is a safety. If you allow keys in your trigger guard, you might lose a finger.

    Most revolvers don't have safeties and it was never an issue in the past. The Glock trigger may be lighter, but it should be up to the user to ensure that his method of carry is safe. It seems that in this case his holster did not protect his trigger sufficiently and he allowed keys to get in it somehow!

    This seems like user error to me, not an error with his gun, with his keys, or his holster. Most likely other holsters would stop the keys from getting in, but he was the one that thought it was good enough to use.

    Just be careful.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I generally agree (although I personally would never carry a gun without a safety -- it's far too easy to remember to and successfully disengage it to unnecessarily forgo having one), the only thing I want to point out is that Glock owners seem to have rates well above the noise floor when it comes to NDs.

    Notice also the officer in question didn't take responsibility; he blamed his equipment. Why, then, should we not suggest he carry more suitable equipment, seeing as he clearly (by his own admission) has a problem with his current kit?

  19. #19
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    marshaul wrote:
    I generally agree (although I personally would never carry a gun without a safety -- it's far too easy to remember to and successfully disengage it to unnecessarily forgo having one), the only thing I want to point out is that Glock owners seem to have rates well above the noise floor when it comes to NDs.

    Notice also the officer in question didn't take responsibility; he blamed his equipment. Why, then, should we not suggest he carry more suitable equipment, seeing as he clearly (by his own admission) has a problem with his current kit?
    Yours a crucial point. If the guy doesn't take responsibiliity, blaming some inanimate object (keys, holster, pocket) instead, then he is in denial. Same for chief Rodriguez. Rodriguez seems to be offering up everything but what actually happened: Granillo pulled or pushed the trigger on a loaded GLOCK. GLOCKS always discharge when someone does that...


    Notso wrote:
    "When we got to him, the gun was still the in holster . . . and the spent cartridge was still in the weapon."
    Aha, finally! Away to make a GLOCK jam!



  20. #20
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    I hate external safeties. I will never own a gun with one.

    This is clearly a freakish accident. The odds of this ever happening again are so remote it is not funny.

    I am sure the parents will want guns banned on the property. :?

  21. #21
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    This is clearly a freakish accident. The odds of this ever happening again are so remote it is not funny.
    Actually, another ND would be an independent event. In probabalistic terms this means that the odds of a future ND are about the same as the one that just happened.

    Think about it.





  22. #22
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    It's a catastrophic success :what:

    HankT wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    This is clearly a freakish accident. The odds of this ever happening again are so remote it is not funny.
    Actually, another ND would be an independent event. In probabalistic terms this means that the odds of a future ND are about the same as the one that just happened.

    Think about it.




  23. #23
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    Actually, Glocks are popular with police executives because they are relatively inexpensive and operation is so simple they are easy to teach to non-gun people, i.e. many big-city recruits.

    Carrying a Glock is like carrying a cocked revolver. Notice that nearly all ADs occur when the Glock is being reholstered.

    Sorry, but I feel they are unsafe in all but the most experienced, most aware hands. A much better solution in my opinion is the standard DAO semi-auto. It combines the best of both worlds -- capacity and simple operation. Next best is the D/SA a la SIG and Beretta.

    I, too, like 1911s but I can foresee problems for police carrying them cocked and locked. Still, safer than a Glock.

  24. #24
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    old dog wrote:
    Actually, Glocks are popular with police executives because they are relatively inexpensive and operation is so simple they are easy to teach to non-gun people, i.e. many big-city recruits.

    Carrying a Glock is like carrying a cocked revolver. Notice that nearly all ADs occur when the Glock is being reholstered.

    Sorry, but I feel they are unsafe in all but the most experienced, most aware hands. A much better solution in my opinion is the standard DAO semi-auto. It combines the best of both worlds -- capacity and simple operation. Next best is the D/SA a la SIG and Beretta.

    I, too, like 1911s but I can foresee problems for police carrying them cocked and locked. Still, safer than a Glock.
    A GLOCK without one in the chamber would solve almost all ofits ND problems too.

    That's one obvious solution.

    Would work with any other semi-autos that have an ND problem.




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    Your exactly right, and that is what I personally do.

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