Cava3r4
Regular Member
imported post
i don't go to the PRK !
i don't go to the PRK !
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LEO Serial # Check Question
- Thread starter ca2az96
- Start date
me812
Regular Member
imported post
Without probable cause to suspect that it's stolen property, the serial number check is an illegal search.
The cops don't need any warrant to run a serial number that's in plain view or one that comes into plain view as the result of a lawful search or seizure.
Even if AZ cops wanted to run serial numbers, which they don't, they couldn't, because there are no firearm serial number databases in AZ.
There is the NCIC database of stolen guns. That would normally be the one a cop would run it through.
Without probable cause to suspect that it's stolen property, the serial number check is an illegal search.
The cops don't need any warrant to run a serial number that's in plain view or one that comes into plain view as the result of a lawful search or seizure.
Even if AZ cops wanted to run serial numbers, which they don't, they couldn't, because there are no firearm serial number databases in AZ.
There is the NCIC database of stolen guns. That would normally be the one a cop would run it through.
Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
imported post
The LEO would have to 'sieze' the firearm to run the number. If there is no Probable Cause to do that incident to 'something else'... They won't do that in Arizona. So... what exactly is the point of covering the S/N anyway? To prevent running the number?
They'll just take the whole damn gun with that kind'a'fishy' stuff. If the Kommiefornians were as smart as they assume themselves to be... they wouldn't be in the fix they're in now. See... if you do somthing suspicious... it will be percieved as suspicious. The right to bear arms is recognized in Arizona... 'has been since before there was an Arizona.
DO NOT INTRODUCE THIS PARANOID CRAP INTO ARIZONA! :cuss:
The LEO would have to 'sieze' the firearm to run the number. If there is no Probable Cause to do that incident to 'something else'... They won't do that in Arizona. So... what exactly is the point of covering the S/N anyway? To prevent running the number?
They'll just take the whole damn gun with that kind'a'fishy' stuff. If the Kommiefornians were as smart as they assume themselves to be... they wouldn't be in the fix they're in now. See... if you do somthing suspicious... it will be percieved as suspicious. The right to bear arms is recognized in Arizona... 'has been since before there was an Arizona.
DO NOT INTRODUCE THIS PARANOID CRAP INTO ARIZONA! :cuss:
me812
Regular Member
imported post
The LEO would have to 'sieze' the firearm to run the number.
The courts have ruled that the police have the right to temporarily disarm you during an encounter for reasons of officer safety. In fact, I've read that this this is now SOP for the Tucson PD. The gun would then be lawfully seized by the officer and he would have the right to run the serial number if it's in plain view. Now, I don't now how many cops would actually go to the trouble to do so in the absence of any indications that the gun is stolen, but according to current law, they have every right to.
See... if you do somthing suspicious... it will be percieved as suspicious.
One needn't be doing anything illegal in order for an cop to have reasonable articulable suspicion that he's breaking the law; one needs only to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've been detained and questioned by the cops before because I fit the description of someone they were looking for. Although I wasn't the person they were looking for, they had reasonable suspicion to believe that I was and hence had every right to detain me (and take my gun, if I was carrying one.).
DO NOT INTRODUCE THIS PARANOID CRAP INTO ARIZONA!
I am not being paranoid at all, merely stating the facts.
The LEO would have to 'sieze' the firearm to run the number.
The courts have ruled that the police have the right to temporarily disarm you during an encounter for reasons of officer safety. In fact, I've read that this this is now SOP for the Tucson PD. The gun would then be lawfully seized by the officer and he would have the right to run the serial number if it's in plain view. Now, I don't now how many cops would actually go to the trouble to do so in the absence of any indications that the gun is stolen, but according to current law, they have every right to.
See... if you do somthing suspicious... it will be percieved as suspicious.
One needn't be doing anything illegal in order for an cop to have reasonable articulable suspicion that he's breaking the law; one needs only to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've been detained and questioned by the cops before because I fit the description of someone they were looking for. Although I wasn't the person they were looking for, they had reasonable suspicion to believe that I was and hence had every right to detain me (and take my gun, if I was carrying one.).
DO NOT INTRODUCE THIS PARANOID CRAP INTO ARIZONA!
I am not being paranoid at all, merely stating the facts.
rpyne
Regular Member
imported post
Sonora Rebel wrote:
The "stolen" check in essence registers your firearm. It may not go into a "firearm registration database" but it puts the serial number and your name on record. It has the same long term effect.
As for it not being Utah, you are correct. While the Utah forums may have reported a few more LEO abuses than the Arizona forum, in many ways, Utah laws are more favorable toward firearms than are Arizona's. How many Universities in Arizona allow carry? In Utah, carry in a restaurant, or anywhere else, that serves alcohol has been completely legal for longer than I can remember. I find that when I travel to Arizona, I have to be much more careful where I carry than I do in Utah.
I have open carried in Utah for many years, in all that time, I have only been hassled twice by LEO, and both of those times were in the larger cities.
Sonora Rebel wrote:
It is exactly this attitude that will make it an issue in Arizona. You can't tell me that there has never been an incident in Arizona where an LEO has violated someones rights (Hicks v. AZ per chance).
The "stolen" check in essence registers your firearm. It may not go into a "firearm registration database" but it puts the serial number and your name on record. It has the same long term effect.
As for it not being Utah, you are correct. While the Utah forums may have reported a few more LEO abuses than the Arizona forum, in many ways, Utah laws are more favorable toward firearms than are Arizona's. How many Universities in Arizona allow carry? In Utah, carry in a restaurant, or anywhere else, that serves alcohol has been completely legal for longer than I can remember. I find that when I travel to Arizona, I have to be much more careful where I carry than I do in Utah.
I have open carried in Utah for many years, in all that time, I have only been hassled twice by LEO, and both of those times were in the larger cities.
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
me812 wrote:
In all instances, the officers asked me if it was "registered". I think what they were trying to do is raise a red flag if I said it was, because obviously that would be nonsense.
If they did ask if they could run it, which I've never so much as heard of in AZ, you could just say no. If the cop did it anyway, given the fact it's AZ, if you weren't doing anything suspicious, you could probably get him fired or severely reprimanded for violating your rights. I agree with Sonora, it's paranoia to get worked up over in AZ.
me812 wrote:
I've been disarmed by AZ police a few times. Once after a traffic accident, once after I told them to take my CZ52 and destroy it, and once after they thought I was breaking into my own car.
In all instances, the officers asked me if it was "registered". I think what they were trying to do is raise a red flag if I said it was, because obviously that would be nonsense.
If they did ask if they could run it, which I've never so much as heard of in AZ, you could just say no. If the cop did it anyway, given the fact it's AZ, if you weren't doing anything suspicious, you could probably get him fired or severely reprimanded for violating your rights. I agree with Sonora, it's paranoia to get worked up over in AZ.
me812
Regular Member
imported post
If they did ask if they could run it, which I've never so much as heard of in AZ, you could just say no.
If the serial number was in plain view or came into plain view as the result of a lawful search and seizure, actually, you couldn't say no. In fact, if the cop was of a mind to run the serial number, he probably wouldn't even ask permission. What would be the point of asking permission if you had no right to say no?
Now, I think it's highly unlikely that a cop would waste his time running the serial number of property that he has no reason to believe is stolen, and even if he did run it, I wouldn't really care, since I'd be in no trouble unless it was actually stolen and there was some reason to believe that I knew or could have suspected it was stolen. I'm just pointing out what the law allows here.
If they did ask if they could run it, which I've never so much as heard of in AZ, you could just say no.
If the serial number was in plain view or came into plain view as the result of a lawful search and seizure, actually, you couldn't say no. In fact, if the cop was of a mind to run the serial number, he probably wouldn't even ask permission. What would be the point of asking permission if you had no right to say no?
Now, I think it's highly unlikely that a cop would waste his time running the serial number of property that he has no reason to believe is stolen, and even if he did run it, I wouldn't really care, since I'd be in no trouble unless it was actually stolen and there was some reason to believe that I knew or could have suspected it was stolen. I'm just pointing out what the law allows here.
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
me812 wrote:
me812 wrote:
Could but won't is a lot different from can and will.
rolexbenz190e
Regular Member
imported post
Sonora Rebel wrote:
Sonora Rebel wrote:
I was pulled over for "running a red light" last week (it was yellow) and I was armed with my Kimber. He asked me to get out of the car, he saw the gun in my waistband and took it. Then I went with him to his vehicle where he unloaded it and called in the serial # to check if it was stolen goods. Came back clean and he sent me on my way with a warning.
Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
imported post
rolexbenz190e wrote:
I think there's stuff you're omitting. 1. Attitude 2. Dress 3. Deportment (body language) and (altho there's no requirement) You didn't inform him you were armed.
Why do I say this? He told you to 'get out of the vehicle'. Somthin' raised his suspicion 'n it wasn't just running the light. I was a cop... this is how it goes down.
'Gun in your waistband? Mexican carry or holster? If you're carryin' 'Gangsta'... expect 'Gangsta' treatment.
rolexbenz190e wrote:
I think there's stuff you're omitting. 1. Attitude 2. Dress 3. Deportment (body language) and (altho there's no requirement) You didn't inform him you were armed.
Why do I say this? He told you to 'get out of the vehicle'. Somthin' raised his suspicion 'n it wasn't just running the light. I was a cop... this is how it goes down.
'Gun in your waistband? Mexican carry or holster? If you're carryin' 'Gangsta'... expect 'Gangsta' treatment.
rolexbenz190e
Regular Member
imported post
ok I will tell the whole story for clarification purposes.
I was driving when a stop light turned yellow and I ran through it. I happen to be inside the intersection when the light turned red. Shortly after I was pulled over by an undercover vehicle. I was driving my black $75,000 Range Rover and wearing a suit and tie (with the suit coat hanging in the back). As soon as my vehicle was stopped I placed both hands on the steering wheel and waited for him to approach the vehicle. When he got to the window he asked if I knew why he stopped me. I honestly told him I had no idea. He told me I ran a red light, so I apologized and told him I honestly didn't realized it was red before entering the intersection. He then said "May I see you license, registration and proof of insurance?". At that point I said "Before we get any further officer I just wanted to......." and he interrupted me and said "You have a gun don't you?" And I said "Yes officer. Its located on my person on my 4 o' clock. He then asked where my license and things were, I told him in the glove box. He told me to get my paperwork and after, take my gun out and place it on the dash so he can see it. I politely said that I was uncomfortable pulling my gun out in the presence of an officer while partially facing him. He said "then what would you like to do?" And I said "If you insist on my gun being on my dash, I would rather step out of the vehicle, face away from you, pull my weapon out slowly so you can see everything, and then place it on my dash". So he let me get out of the car to do this, but before I could pull my gun out he said "Oh, I see it, I will just get my self". He then asked me to come with him to his vehicle. So I followed him to his vehicle, him having my paperwork and my gun (fully loaded and chambered). We proceeded to talk about things not related to the traffic stop as he was writing up something on his clipboard. He told me he recognized me and I told him I recognized him too. We figured out that we met each other in the police department when I was doing a ride along with his old roommate. He really wanted to know what kind of holster I had, he told me his IWB holster had a plastic clip and it broke, so he needed to get a new one. I told him that the High Noon holster that I had has a metal clip so it wont break. I also said he probably had a Galco IWB and he told me I was right. Anyways, it was a really friendly conversation and I had told him I applied with the County Sheriff as a Deputy and he said that he hoped I got the job. He then asked me where I bought the gun, I told him I bought it at a local gun store brand new and I still had the receipt in the car. He asked if I got it from a gun show, and I repeated that I bought it at a local gun shop brand new. He put his clipboard down and proceeded to unload my gun in his car. Then he ran my gun's # to the dispatcher to have it checked. Dispatcher ran the # and came back clean. Then he said "Alright Sean, well I'm going to give you a warning for that stop light. Also, I trust you better than anyone out here, but I dont just hand guns back to people. So I'm going to ask you to get in your vehicle, I'm going to place it on your rear pumper and drive off, then you can arm your self after I leave. And good luck with the sheriff's office! Have a good night" And I said "Thank you officer, take care". We did our little shindig and he drove off, I armed my self and left. End of story.
All in all, very very friendly stop, no red flags anywhere at all from both sides. He was very nice and I was also very polite and understanding. I was NOT about to argue that I didn't run a red light, I just dont argue with cops PERIOD. Point is, he still ran my gun's # without hesitation and without any red flags being presented.
ok I will tell the whole story for clarification purposes.
I was driving when a stop light turned yellow and I ran through it. I happen to be inside the intersection when the light turned red. Shortly after I was pulled over by an undercover vehicle. I was driving my black $75,000 Range Rover and wearing a suit and tie (with the suit coat hanging in the back). As soon as my vehicle was stopped I placed both hands on the steering wheel and waited for him to approach the vehicle. When he got to the window he asked if I knew why he stopped me. I honestly told him I had no idea. He told me I ran a red light, so I apologized and told him I honestly didn't realized it was red before entering the intersection. He then said "May I see you license, registration and proof of insurance?". At that point I said "Before we get any further officer I just wanted to......." and he interrupted me and said "You have a gun don't you?" And I said "Yes officer. Its located on my person on my 4 o' clock. He then asked where my license and things were, I told him in the glove box. He told me to get my paperwork and after, take my gun out and place it on the dash so he can see it. I politely said that I was uncomfortable pulling my gun out in the presence of an officer while partially facing him. He said "then what would you like to do?" And I said "If you insist on my gun being on my dash, I would rather step out of the vehicle, face away from you, pull my weapon out slowly so you can see everything, and then place it on my dash". So he let me get out of the car to do this, but before I could pull my gun out he said "Oh, I see it, I will just get my self". He then asked me to come with him to his vehicle. So I followed him to his vehicle, him having my paperwork and my gun (fully loaded and chambered). We proceeded to talk about things not related to the traffic stop as he was writing up something on his clipboard. He told me he recognized me and I told him I recognized him too. We figured out that we met each other in the police department when I was doing a ride along with his old roommate. He really wanted to know what kind of holster I had, he told me his IWB holster had a plastic clip and it broke, so he needed to get a new one. I told him that the High Noon holster that I had has a metal clip so it wont break. I also said he probably had a Galco IWB and he told me I was right. Anyways, it was a really friendly conversation and I had told him I applied with the County Sheriff as a Deputy and he said that he hoped I got the job. He then asked me where I bought the gun, I told him I bought it at a local gun store brand new and I still had the receipt in the car. He asked if I got it from a gun show, and I repeated that I bought it at a local gun shop brand new. He put his clipboard down and proceeded to unload my gun in his car. Then he ran my gun's # to the dispatcher to have it checked. Dispatcher ran the # and came back clean. Then he said "Alright Sean, well I'm going to give you a warning for that stop light. Also, I trust you better than anyone out here, but I dont just hand guns back to people. So I'm going to ask you to get in your vehicle, I'm going to place it on your rear pumper and drive off, then you can arm your self after I leave. And good luck with the sheriff's office! Have a good night" And I said "Thank you officer, take care". We did our little shindig and he drove off, I armed my self and left. End of story.
All in all, very very friendly stop, no red flags anywhere at all from both sides. He was very nice and I was also very polite and understanding. I was NOT about to argue that I didn't run a red light, I just dont argue with cops PERIOD. Point is, he still ran my gun's # without hesitation and without any red flags being presented.
imported post
"In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized."
1) Anytime you quote some one or something (an individual, a book, a legal citation as in ARS 47 -- 2313_express warranty by any affirmation of fact) you have a responsibility to the readership to properly setforth the citation.
2) Failure to set forth that reference or citation, the act itself is one of plagiarism. Every author holds ownership and copyright to their works at the instant of creation.
3) when you fail to set for the reference or the citation or ownership then that which you have quoted becomes less secure and most certainly less authentic thereby reducing any value quotation may have had.
4) as a reader of your quotation, I have no way of knowing if you have correctly quoted what you have written, or if in fact the quotation has its basis in any form of reality; it could simply be something you have made up and attempted to foist off on others as TRUTH, when in fact it is not true.
So for what it is worth I am not complaining I am simply stating an observation for the benefit of other members of this forum.
"In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized."
1) Anytime you quote some one or something (an individual, a book, a legal citation as in ARS 47 -- 2313_express warranty by any affirmation of fact) you have a responsibility to the readership to properly setforth the citation.
2) Failure to set forth that reference or citation, the act itself is one of plagiarism. Every author holds ownership and copyright to their works at the instant of creation.
3) when you fail to set for the reference or the citation or ownership then that which you have quoted becomes less secure and most certainly less authentic thereby reducing any value quotation may have had.
4) as a reader of your quotation, I have no way of knowing if you have correctly quoted what you have written, or if in fact the quotation has its basis in any form of reality; it could simply be something you have made up and attempted to foist off on others as TRUTH, when in fact it is not true.
So for what it is worth I am not complaining I am simply stating an observation for the benefit of other members of this forum.
rolexbenz190e
Regular Member
imported post
ok. Well in no way am I complaining about the traffic stop and in no way was i offended by the officer running my serial number. I just typed all of that in order to let all of you know that it DOES happen in Arizona.
About you plagiarism comment, I didn't spend all that time typing up something that wasn't true, that would be counter productive and a waste of my time. If you dont want to believe it, then thats up to you. But you dont have to try and discredit me.
ok. Well in no way am I complaining about the traffic stop and in no way was i offended by the officer running my serial number. I just typed all of that in order to let all of you know that it DOES happen in Arizona.
About you plagiarism comment, I didn't spend all that time typing up something that wasn't true, that would be counter productive and a waste of my time. If you dont want to believe it, then thats up to you. But you dont have to try and discredit me.
rpyne
Regular Member
imported post
rolexbenz190e wrote:
rolexbenz190e wrote:
You SHOULD be offended and file a formal complaint about the officer running your serial number. It was a violation of your civil right against unreasonable search and seizure.
Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
imported post
The only reason for running the serioal number would be to determine if it was stolen. There is no gun registration in Arizona. Now.. what would be PC for running a stolen check on private property S/N's? How come they don't do that to the chip in yer cell phone? Or... run your credit card numbers? It's endless.
The only reason for running the serioal number would be to determine if it was stolen. There is no gun registration in Arizona. Now.. what would be PC for running a stolen check on private property S/N's? How come they don't do that to the chip in yer cell phone? Or... run your credit card numbers? It's endless.
Dragonflydf
Regular Member
imported post
If you are stopped in AZ, and you tell the officer you have a gun, it will be taken from you, all rounds removed from the gun and all mags, serial number run and it will be handed back to you in a plastic bag. It has happened to me several years ago. I had a PA-63 under my seat in a military flap holster and I was asked to get out of the car and the officer took my gun. Sorry, but I did not give him permission to enter my car for any reason, nor did I give him permission to touch my gun.
For that reason, I will never tell a cop about any gun I happen to have on me, or in my car or on my Goldwing.
To those that moved here from kommiefornia, I have this to say, This is AZ, we don't care how you did things there. if things worked so good there, then move back, otherwise welcome to AZ, where you have the right to protect yourself and family and not have to ask permission.
If you are stopped in AZ, and you tell the officer you have a gun, it will be taken from you, all rounds removed from the gun and all mags, serial number run and it will be handed back to you in a plastic bag. It has happened to me several years ago. I had a PA-63 under my seat in a military flap holster and I was asked to get out of the car and the officer took my gun. Sorry, but I did not give him permission to enter my car for any reason, nor did I give him permission to touch my gun.
For that reason, I will never tell a cop about any gun I happen to have on me, or in my car or on my Goldwing.
To those that moved here from kommiefornia, I have this to say, This is AZ, we don't care how you did things there. if things worked so good there, then move back, otherwise welcome to AZ, where you have the right to protect yourself and family and not have to ask permission.
IDAHO COWBOY
Regular Member
imported post
How do you know he does not write your SN and all information about the gun and you in his little notebook then later enters the information into a data base ?
How do you know he does not write your SN and all information about the gun and you in his little notebook then later enters the information into a data base ?
AZkopper
Regular Member
imported post
Can I ask what agency stopped you? The officer seemed convolutedly paranoid, and made a simple t-stop in to an excercise in disarming gymnastics.
I can only speak for me and people I've worked with. Given the circs as you described them, my text book question/follow up statement is "where is the gun?/Good, keep it there." If it is loose/plain sight in the vehicle, I'll have the DRIVER step out, to separate him from a 'free floating' gun.
Now, if I stopped you and suspected some sort of possible impairment (alcohol, prescription drugs, etc), I would disarm you for my safety during my investigation, butI wouldn'tbe manipulatingyour gun or unloading it foryou. Whenwe were all done (assuming you're driving away), I'd put the gun in the passegner compartment for you. you can grab it and rehoster by your lonesome, in the privacy ofyour car. I preferpeople not manipulating guns around me on stops.
Just my way of balancing safety and our rights.
Can I ask what agency stopped you? The officer seemed convolutedly paranoid, and made a simple t-stop in to an excercise in disarming gymnastics.
I can only speak for me and people I've worked with. Given the circs as you described them, my text book question/follow up statement is "where is the gun?/Good, keep it there." If it is loose/plain sight in the vehicle, I'll have the DRIVER step out, to separate him from a 'free floating' gun.
Now, if I stopped you and suspected some sort of possible impairment (alcohol, prescription drugs, etc), I would disarm you for my safety during my investigation, butI wouldn'tbe manipulatingyour gun or unloading it foryou. Whenwe were all done (assuming you're driving away), I'd put the gun in the passegner compartment for you. you can grab it and rehoster by your lonesome, in the privacy ofyour car. I preferpeople not manipulating guns around me on stops.
Just my way of balancing safety and our rights.
rolexbenz190e
Regular Member
imported post
AZkopper wrote:
AZkopper wrote:
It was DPS that stopped me, a Gang Unit. A very nice and honest cop if you ask me. I had no problem volunteering the information he asked for. I understand the whole "possible impairment" thing. Honestly though, I can't seem to think of any that would be considered a "red flag" as to me being impaired or even a bad character. I was nicely dressed, I dont wear glasses and I was in an clean/clear titled Range Rover owned by me.
Notso
Campaign Veteran
imported post
I was stopped in Texas recently. Texas law requires that you inform on any interaction with LE. As I was handing him my DL and CCW license, I informed him I was carrying, he asked where, I told him on my right side and that was the last that was said about it.
I was stopped in Texas recently. Texas law requires that you inform on any interaction with LE. As I was handing him my DL and CCW license, I informed him I was carrying, he asked where, I told him on my right side and that was the last that was said about it.