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What to say in Police and LEO Encounters

Deanimator

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Citizen wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
SNIPShow them how honest and law abiding citizens with guns are and give the cops a reason to label gun owners as weirdos.
Forum,

Lets look at the underlying false premises in the above quote.

1) That not being labeled a weirdo is more important than exercising rights.

2) And that if the officer is being nice or friendly, it is somehow invalid to exercise your rights.

I think false premise number one isobvious.

But permit me, please, to expand just a bit on number two. If the officer is free to engage a person consensually, how is it any less valid for the for the person to refuse hisconsent?To say otherwise would be to turn consent on its head. He is free to talk to me, but it isnot free of taintfor me not to not talk to him?

Because a cop is friendly, it is invalid to exercise rights?

Perhaps because lots of other people, from nerves or ignorance, do not exercise their rights, making police unused to it, it makes one a weirdo among sheeple to actually exercise rights?
My rights trump making his job "easier" 100% of the time. As I said, he can like it or he can lump it. He's probably going to lump it in civil court at great cost to himself and his family.
 

Citizen

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Deanimator wrote:
SNIP (If not carrying and asked to ID myself) "I am X, living at Y address." If not driving and not carrying, I carry no ID.

May I respectfully suggest adding a couple phrases.

"Officer, I do not consent to identifying myself. But, since you have demanded it in a firm tone, I will comply."

I offer this because of court opinions[suP]1[/suP] thatsay the LEOmust have reasonable articulable suspicion for the stop itselfbefore he can demand you identify yourself.

If, after the encounter, you determine he did in fact have RAS, no legal foul.

However, (heh, heh, heh) if after the encounter you determine that he did not have RAS, you can add another bullet point to the formal complaint or lawsuit.

Cops seem to have habituated themselves to demanding to see ID. At least based on the number of RASless stops we've seen reported here where ID was also demanded, it would seem so. It would seem so many peopledo not know their rights on this point or just cave and cough up ID, copsthink they can get away with it, and probably have even forgotten where their authority actually stops on this point.

So, the magic talisman I am suggesting is to refuse consent while expressly establishing that it was demanded, and then comply.

Across other localities and states this also solves the problem of having to researchand memorize whether any given jurisdiction you might be in has a stop-and-identify statute or ordinance.

[suP]1[/suP] http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html

...The Court has recognized similar constitutional limitations on the scope and operation of stop and identify statutes. In Brown v. Texas, 443 U.S. 47, 52 (1979), the Court invalidated a conviction for violating a Texas stop and identify statute on Fourth Amendment grounds. The Court ruled that the initial stop was not based on specific, objective facts establishing reasonable suspicion to believe the suspect was involved in criminal activity. See id., at 51—52. Absent that factual basis for detaining the defendant, the Court held, the risk of “arbitrary and abusive police practices” was too great and the stop was impermissible. Id., at 52. Four Terms later, the Court invalidated a modified stop and identify statute on vagueness grounds. See Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983). The California law in Kolender required a suspect to give an officer “‘credible and reliable’” identification when asked to identify himself. Id., at 360. The Court held that the statute was void because it provided no standard for determining what a suspect must do to comply with it, resulting in “‘virtually unrestrained power to arrest and charge persons with a violation.’” Id., at 360 (quoting Lewis v. New Orleans, 415 U.S. 130, 135 (1974) (Powell, J., concurring in result)).
 

LEO 229

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You two should date!! You seem perfect for each other!! :lol:
 

Citizen

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hansolo wrote:
Thank you for all the great replies! I did not realize that this thread was continuing on to more pages. I feel more prepared now. And having just turned 18, the full acquisition of my rights is exciting!
You are welcome, young pirate!

Even though hokey religions and ancient weapons are nosubstitute for a good blaster at your side,the Bill of Rightsprovides a Force that agents of the Dark Sideviolate at their own risk. :)
 

codename_47

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In Virginia, a cop can take a person into "protective custody" or "detain" them for 4 hours so they can be evaluated by a mental health professional. People who may be a danger to themselves or others.

This is NOT an arrest and is done in the best interests of the person and the public.. I have done this many times and they all get admitted into the psych ward. They get a lawyer and a hearing with a judge do determine their mental status.

Yeah, well, my lawyer will be calling it an arrest in the 1983 lawsuit vs the cop, and whatever mental health doctor and hospital we go to. Unless I am running around the street naked waving my OTHER gun around, I don't want to hear it.
 

jaredbelch

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LEO 229 wrote:
You two should date!! You seem perfect for each other!! :lol:
I'm curious what you think this brings to the table -

I think it's perfectly reasonable to engage a cop if you want to. Feel free to chat with them, you may become friends.

I also think it's perfectly reasonable to snub them and say (without saying anything) get lost!

Obviously any time you are approached by a cop you have to evaluate the entire situation, and make a determination on how to respond. Most people who OC will lean toward the second option simply because the more you OC, the more attention you get from cops. And that usually isn't convenient or pleasant. The cops are (as Citizen mentioned) almost always fishing when they approach someone who is OC'ing.

Now what I would like, is for someone to videotape (or have someone videotape) themselves approaching an officer, and asking for his ID. Then ask to search his police car, and ask if you can hold his firearm for the duration of the conversation. That would be a funny video. :lol::lol:
 

LEO 229

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Deanimator wrote:
jaredbelch wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
You two should date!! You seem perfect for each other!! :lol:
I'm curious what you think this brings to the table -
An example of the sort of attitude by police which leads citizens to not wish to interact with them?
I say this as a person being funny. Cops can and do have a scene of humor too. Even if you refuse to believe it. :lol:

Sometimes they just want to talk and be neighborly. Many times they have to talk to you because of someone else in the neighborhood.

OMG.. He is wrong! My opinion is right!! I will have to stay up all night to do battle with him!!! :lol:

Get over it!!! This is the internet and people will not be like you. We will see things differently. I can often speak from actual life experience while so many others simply post opinions not backed by anything but irrational fear. :p

I joke around on here because so much of what is said by a "few" is a complete joke!!

What you need is a cop like Mr. Rogers!! I hope you can talk to him. :lol:

 

Deanimator

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LEO 229 wrote:
Deanimator wrote:
jaredbelch wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
You two should date!! You seem perfect for each other!! :lol:
I'm curious what you think this brings to the table -
An example of the sort of attitude by police which leads citizens to not wish to interact with them?
I say this as a person being funny. Cops can and do have a scene of humor too. Even if you refuse to believe it. :lol:
I'm sure Rosie O'Donnell thinks she's smart and beautiful too.

"Be my friend or I'll take you into custody." isn't going to work out for you. It especially isn't going to work out for you when you start stopping women (or men) in order to try to pressure them into having contact with you of a non-professional nature.
 

LEO 229

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jaredbelch wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
You two should date!! You seem perfect for each other!! :lol:
I'm curious what you think this brings to the table -

I think it's perfectly reasonable to engage a cop if you want to. Feel free to chat with them, you may become friends.

I also think it's perfectly reasonable to snub them and say (without saying anything) get lost!

Obviously any time you are approached by a cop you have to evaluate the entire situation, and make a determination on how to respond. Most people who OC will lean toward the second option simply because the more you OC, the more attention you get from cops. And that usually isn't convenient or pleasant. The cops are (as Citizen mentioned) almost always fishing when they approach someone who is OC'ing.

Now what I would like, is for someone to videotape (or have someone videotape) themselves approaching an officer, and asking for his ID. Then ask to search his police car, and ask if you can hold his firearm for the duration of the conversation. That would be a funny video. :lol::lol:
What it brings to the table is some humor during a time where members are getting all worked up for nothing.

There is a great deal of good information provided by a few but the way it is presented is a joke. They come off as wackos! A few are out there a bit and way too serious.

You see, getting an attitude with a cop you just met is wrong.

You can play nice with a citizen that walks up and asks "Mister, why do you carry a gun?" And you are all friendly and explain in great detail "It is legal and I want to be able to defend myself. Here is a card. You can do it too."

But when the cop approaches and asks the same question wondering why you are carrying.. he gets "Because I can!" or "Am I being detained?!" and maybe "Am I free to go!?" :lol:

The cop may have legitimate question. But no.... we will assume he wants to arrest us (for some crime) and so we snub him and try to run away.

Then the cop tells everyone back at the station about this OCer he met that was a real piece of work.

So now, you have the rest of the cops thinking that ALL citizens that OC are probably that way too. I happen to know otherwise form personal experience. I have met people from both sides.

Most are good people! Cops and OCers.

But I also know there are a few that I would not trust. :uhoh:
 

LEO 229

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Deanimator wrote:
I say this as a person being funny. Cops can and do have a scene of humor too. Even if you refuse to believe it. :lol:
I'm sure Rosie O'Donnell thinks she's smart and beautiful too.

"Be my friend or I'll take you into custody." isn't going to work out for you. It especially isn't going to work out for you when you start stopping women (or men) in order to try to pressure them into having contact with you of a non-professional nature.
This does not make any sense.

You are talking about something that is open for personal debate. Intelligence and beauty are so subjective.

You may find her unattractive when most of the world thinks she is cute. She really is not that bad looking. A little too thick for me.. but she has a cute face.

Is she smart? Let's think about that... who hosted a talk show and made millions?? Not you!!! :lol:

So while you are sure she "thinks" [by using this term I suspect you mean you do not agree] she is smart and attractive.... somehow she is not. But that is only an opinion on your part. A pointless one at that.

Why are you equating being a friend to an arrest? It is not against the law to be a jerk. It is not neighborly... but also not against the law.

So you feel "pressure" to talk to people? Maybe you can let the cop text you on your phone??

Kids today cannot talk anymore. They would rather take 10 minutes to draft a text message than dial and talk for 30 seconds.

May I ask....?? How old are you anyway? :lol:
 

Deanimator

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LEO 229 wrote:
jaredbelch wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
You two should date!! You seem perfect for each other!! :lol:
I'm curious what you think this brings to the table -

I think it's perfectly reasonable to engage a cop if you want to. Feel free to chat with them, you may become friends.

I also think it's perfectly reasonable to snub them and say (without saying anything) get lost!

Obviously any time you are approached by a cop you have to evaluate the entire situation, and make a determination on how to respond. Most people who OC will lean toward the second option simply because the more you OC, the more attention you get from cops. And that usually isn't convenient or pleasant. The cops are (as Citizen mentioned) almost always fishing when they approach someone who is OC'ing.

Now what I would like, is for someone to videotape (or have someone videotape) themselves approaching an officer, and asking for his ID. Then ask to search his police car, and ask if you can hold his firearm for the duration of the conversation. That would be a funny video. :lol::lol:
What it brings to the table is some humor during a time where members are getting all worked up for nothing.

There is a great deal of good information provided by a few but the way it is presented is a joke. They come off as wackos! A few are out there a bit and way too serious.

You see, getting an attitude with a cop you just met is wrong.

You can play nice with a citizen that walks up and asks "Mister, why do you carry a gun?" And you are all friendly and explain in great detail "It is legal and I want to be able to defend myself. Here is a card. You can do it too."

But when the cop approaches and asks the same question wondering why you are carrying.. he gets "Because I can!" or "Am I being detained?!" and maybe "Am I free to go!?" :lol:
Let's see, one of those two can ARREST you. I'll go out on a limb and guess it's NOT the citizen who asks you a question.

Now, the one who CAN arrest you, and who has threatened to take people in for "mental health" observation because they won't talk to him, tries to tell everyone that you should treat him just like the citizen with no powers of arrest or even detention. And that's despite the fact that the law allows him to lie to suspects (who may not KNOW they're suspects) in order to extract self-incriminating information from them.

Kind of reminds me of that song "Straighten Up and Fly Right":

"Your story's so touching but it sounds just like a lie"

Absolutely the funniest thing I EVER saw on TV was the episode of Law & Order where Benjamen Bratt says to someone, "I'm a cop, I don't lie!" Oh man, that's so funny it makes Abbott and Costello's "Who's on first?" sound like Sophie's Choice.
 

LEO 229

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Deanimator wrote:
Let's see, one of those two can ARREST you. I'll go out on a limb and guess it's NOT the citizen who asks you a question.

Now, the one who CAN arrest you, and who has threatened to take people in for "mental health" observation because they won't talk to him, tries to tell everyone that you should treat him just like the citizen with no powers of arrest or even detention. And that's despite the fact that the law allows him to lie to suspects (who may not KNOW they're suspects) in order to extract self-incriminating information from them.

Kind of reminds me of that song "Straighten Up and Fly Right":

"Your story's so touching but it sounds just like a lie"

Absolutely the funniest thing I EVER saw on TV was the episode of Law & Order where Benjamen Bratt says to someone, "I'm a cop, I don't lie!" Oh man, that's so funny it makes Abbott and Costello's "Who's on first?" sound like Sophie's Choice.
Alleging that a cop with arrest powers will abuse it and unlawfully arrest you or find something to arrest you for is about the same as saying any guy with a gun could start shooting people at the mall.

Oh, wait!!! That happens too. :uhoh:

So I suggest we not trust cops or citizens with guns. ;)

Both have the ability to cause you harm. The cop be taking your freedom, The citizen for taking your life.
 

Deanimator

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LEO 229 wrote:
Deanimator wrote:
Let's see, one of those two can ARREST you. I'll go out on a limb and guess it's NOT the citizen who asks you a question.

Now, the one who CAN arrest you, and who has threatened to take people in for "mental health" observation because they won't talk to him, tries to tell everyone that you should treat him just like the citizen with no powers of arrest or even detention. And that's despite the fact that the law allows him to lie to suspects (who may not KNOW they're suspects) in order to extract self-incriminating information from them.

Kind of reminds me of that song "Straighten Up and Fly Right":

"Your story's so touching but it sounds just like a lie"

Absolutely the funniest thing I EVER saw on TV was the episode of Law & Order where Benjamen Bratt says to someone, "I'm a cop, I don't lie!" Oh man, that's so funny it makes Abbott and Costello's "Who's on first?" sound like Sophie's Choice.
Alleging that a cop with arrest powers will abuse it and unlawfully arrest you or find something to arrest you for is about the same as saying any guy with a gun could start shooting people at the mall.

Oh, wait!!! That happens too. :uhoh:

So I suggest we not trust cops or citizens with guns. ;)

Both have the ability to cause you harm. The cop be taking your freedom, The citizen for taking your life.
Don't sell yourself short. Cops can harm you by taking your life too. Just ask two of Drew Peterson's wives, Bobby Cutts Jr.'s pregnant girlfriend, Michael Pleasance, and that guy who got shot to death while handcuffed and face down in a BART station... to name a few.
 

les_aker

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Deanimator wrote:
Don't sell yourself short. Cops can harm you by taking your life too. Just ask two of Drew Peterson's wives, Bobby Cutts Jr.'s pregnant girlfriend, Michael Pleasance, and that guy who got shot to death while handcuffed and face down in a BART station... to name a few.

Don't forget Dr. Salvatore J. Culosi. Killed by Fairfax County Police that were never held responsible for his murder.
 

BhmBill

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Deanimator wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Deanimator wrote:
Let's see, one of those two can ARREST you. I'll go out on a limb and guess it's NOT the citizen who asks you a question.

Now, the one who CAN arrest you, and who has threatened to take people in for "mental health" observation because they won't talk to him, tries to tell everyone that you should treat him just like the citizen with no powers of arrest or even detention. And that's despite the fact that the law allows him to lie to suspects (who may not KNOW they're suspects) in order to extract self-incriminating information from them.

Kind of reminds me of that song "Straighten Up and Fly Right":

"Your story's so touching but it sounds just like a lie"

Absolutely the funniest thing I EVER saw on TV was the episode of Law & Order where Benjamen Bratt says to someone, "I'm a cop, I don't lie!" Oh man, that's so funny it makes Abbott and Costello's "Who's on first?" sound like Sophie's Choice.
Alleging that a cop with arrest powers will abuse it and unlawfully arrest you or find something to arrest you for is about the same as saying any guy with a gun could start shooting people at the mall.

Oh, wait!!! That happens too. :uhoh:

So I suggest we not trust cops or citizens with guns. ;)

Both have the ability to cause you harm. The cop be taking your freedom, The citizen for taking your life.
Don't sell yourself short. Cops can harm you by taking your life too. Just ask two of Drew Peterson's wives, Bobby Cutts Jr.'s pregnant girlfriend, Michael Pleasance, and that guy who got shot to death while handcuffed and face down in a BART station... to name a few.
Or the 12 year old here in Vegas a few years ago that was gunned down by metro while dribbling a basketball, or the 13 or 14 year old kid a few years before that that was shot to death by police because he was carrying a foil wrapped hersheys bar.
 
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