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Thread: Lynchburg Waterstone/Shoemakers/Craddock Terry NO FIREARMS"

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    The girlfriend and I decided to head down to Waterstone Pizza (pizza and micro-brewery) here in Lynchburg for a later than usual dinner tonight. We have been fairly regular diners (a couple times a month generally) at the Waterstone ever since it opened some time in the first half of 2008. Except for the few times I've had a beer I've open carried there with no problems at all and continued on as a customer despite what seemed a shaky startup. Well this evening we pull into the parking lot, I turned on my voice recorder and ensured my firearm (Ruger P95 carried in a nice leather retentionholster) is openly carriedand we headed for the door. I don't know why the sign caught my eye, but in the lower portion of the glassto the right ofthe door was a circled firearm outline with a "No Firearms" sign below it. This was new, or at least new since we last dined there a few weeks ago.

    Seeing the sign I pointed it out to my girlfriend and we both turned around and headed to the car. As I began to start up the car I remembered that I had my little VCDL "No Guns / No Money" card in my wallet, so I left the gun in the car and headed back in to see whoever the manager was on duty to let him know he had lost a customer. As I walked back to the entrance one of the managers who I've interacted with and knows me as a customer met me outside. I pointed out to him that although I'd been a customer previously, because of the restaurant's position on firearms I would no longer be giving them my business. The manager then told me that the owner had decided to ban firearm carry for all, because some people had both carried and drank and now all firearm carriers would be banned. Although I tried to handhim my previously mentioned VCDL card, he only took it and then handed it back stating that the owner's decision had been made. After this brief cordial conversation I returned to my car, visited a neighboring restaurant and spent in excess of $50 for two meals and tip at The Depot Grill, which provided both decent service and a tasty meal with no denial of civil rights.

    Although as a rule I don't drink and carry at the same time, I understand it to be legal, provided that one is not under the influence of alcohol. Further it is my opinion that it is no more dangerous to have a bit of alcohol with dinner and carrying a firearm than it is to have a bit of alcohol and then drive home. Given this, I find it disingenuous that this restaurant will happily serve multiple rounds to diners who openly drive a vehicle and then leave shortly afterward,but bans firearm carry for all diners and guests, whether they wish to drink alcohol or not. The wait staff should have a much easier time of identifying firearm open-carriers than trying to identify the drivers of each vehicle, so the wait-staff could surely know when they are serving a firearm carrier. Although I am not mad aboutall of this, I am highly disappointed to cross off the list one of myfavorite places to dine and amdisgusted to see such abigoted attempt to ban one type of diner, while freely serving another the same mealwith no restrictions.

    Some time in the upcoming days I will draft a letter to theowners of the Waterstone, Shoemaker's and the Craddock Terry Hotel (all threeshare same ownership and are posted the same) to share mydismay and share that I will no longerbe a customer and will rescind my recommendations for the restaurants to my friends and family. Once I have drafted the letter I will post its contents and will make you aware of all further discussion. Take note that I have audio to follow once I downloadfrom my voice recorder and I will likely have pictures this upcoming weekend.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    If you haven't already, be sure to post your discovery here.

    http://friendorfoe.thesecond.us/Default.aspx#la10
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Thanks for the reminder, I'll likely get it in the morning.

    Here is the audio I recorded. I have a better quality source if necessary, but the file type and size limited me as to quality. Note that I generally make note of date, time, location and why I'm recording when I start up the player.

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    If it's possible, I'd have a parade of carriers 'innocently' going in over the period of a few weeks to be turned away and let them realize just how much money they're losing out on. Maybe even let them reject a few groups of carriers. If I were a restaurant owner in these economic times, I'd certainly think about the decision again if I knew I was losing hundreds/thousands of dollars a month in sales revenue.

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    Notso wrote:
    If it's possible, I'd have a parade of carriers 'innocently' going in over the period of a few weeks to be turned away and let them realize just how much money they're losing out on. Maybe even let them reject a few groups of carriers. If I were a restaurant owner in these economic times, I'd certainly think about the decision again if I knew I was losing hundreds/thousands of dollars a month in sales revenue.
    Given that there is apparently a sign on the door stating that no firearms are allowed, that might not work - wouldn't there be a risk of a tresspassing charge, if some manager really got their knickers in a knot about the OCers?

    I do think a well-written letter to the owners is in order. You might want to mention that a more reasonable option would be to prohibit their servers from serving liquour to someone OCing. Still bothersome, but certainly better than banning everyone.

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    jmelvin wrote:
    Given this, I find it disingenuous that this restaurant will happily serve multiple rounds to diners who openly drive a vehicle and then leave shortly afterward,but bans firearm carry for all diners and guests, whether they wish to drink alcohol or not.
    Thanks for sharing this experience. Not to hijack the thread, but it's all about money and politics. Certainly, on any given night, especially Friday and Saturday, police could sit outside any local restaurant/bar and pick up dozens of people that have been inside drinking all night. And if they really wanted to eliminate drunk driving, they would do just that. Yet why don't they? I suspect it's because of the restaurant lobbying force and the ABC revenues they would lose. If MADD really wanted to be effective, they would push for this kind of "sting." (Of course, I would also rail against such actions as an infringement on my rights, but that's for another discussion.)

    We (gun owners) need to figure out have to have the same kind of powerful message around revenues thatthe restaurant owners do. Until then, it'll be an uphill battle.

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    I Like how they don't ban drivers that drink. As a firefighter/EMT I see too many vehicle accidents involving alcohol. Yet theserestaurant owners think it's OK to serve drivers.


    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    jmelvin wrote:
    Thanks for the reminder, I'll likely get it in the morning.

    Here is the audio I recorded. I have a better quality source if necessary, but the file type and size limited me as to quality. Note that I generally make note of date, time, location and why I'm recording when I start up the player.
    Thanks for posting the recording, very interesting to listen to. (I'm new and like absorbing all the info and experiences to help myself in the future).

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Thinking like an Anti...

    We need to pass a law that will make ANYONE who serves a drink to a person who is drivingor MAY drive a vehicle criminally responsible for the missactions of said driver.

    That will stop the slaughter on our highways...if it saves just one child, it will be worth it.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    jmelvin wrote:
    Although as a rule I don't drink and carry at the same time, I understand it to be legal, provided that one is not under the influence of alcohol.
    If I'm reading your sentence correctly (and please correct me if I misread it), you are stating that you cannot open carry and drink to the point of being under the influence.

    Actually, any time that you drink an alcoholic beverage, you are under its' influence. Even one beer has some level of impairment attached to it, i.e. slowed reflexes, judgement, etc - however minor that degree of impairment may be. The statute simply says that you cannot carry concealed while under the influence. There is no BAC level indicated to judge the level of impairment. I liken it to local drunk in public ordinances, which simply rely on an officer's perception and training that someone is under the influence in public. The determing factor is not what level of intoxication you may at, but that someone may be carrying concealed while drinking.

    In years past, I have seen people that are unsteady on their feet, have an odor of an alcoholic beverage about their person, have glazed/glassy eyes and slurred speech. They may blow a .02 or .03, clearly not as high as you would see for a DUI charge, but due to their size/weight/age, whatever, they are "under the influence".
    James Reynolds

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    ProShooter it is my estimation that each persons ability to operate with alcohol in their system varies by person, thus some folk may be under the influence of alcohol after a few drinks while someone else may do fine until a couple had been poured down their throat in short order. I believe your summary of my statement to be correct. I do not intend to suggest that anyone other than the protected government funded classes of Virginia society could legally consume alcohol and carry a concealed weapon in the places defined by the code.

    I certainly am no fan of universal BAC limits defining the level of impairment for folk consuming alcohol. Only a thorough, proscribed testing, performed by an uninterested party should be used for impairment testing, which I believe could result in various BACs being reported for the same levels of impairment.

    I am, however, not (here) supporting the carriage of a firearm or the driving of a vehicle of after the consumption of a beer or so with a meal, however, my issue is that the same ownership that bars firearm carry for everyone (regardless of alcohol consumption on the possibility that one would carry and consume) then ignores its own reasoning and will then serve copious quantities of alcohol to anyone who has the right age and the ability to pay without regard to the fact that the person may then walk right out and operate a vehicle.

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    Here is what I would do. Approach the restaurant to hold monthly/weekly lunch or dinner meetings, i.e. OCDO. have a reservation say for 20 people. Have 20 people show up OCing and see if they are refused service. If so state your objections and have a reporter close by. Thank the manager and then go to your second choice establishment.

    Each month or so have a different person make the arrangements and each month show up with some new faces in your group. It would be great to throw in a couple of former probation/parole officers and a former non retired officer. Don;t forget a victim of domestic violence who carries.

    Letters to the management would not hurt either, written not emailed.

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    Well that would be funny and poignant Kenny, but this is Lynchburg, not Richmond. I am a survivor/victim of a DUI accident as a youngster, so I intend to build this tidbit into my commentary regarding their policy of banning all firearm carriers regardless of alcohol consumption and continued serving of alchohol to those who leave the establishment operating a vehicle. Pure unadulterated bigotry is what this is.

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    jmelvin wrote:
    ProShooter it is my estimation that each persons ability to operate with alcohol in their system varies by person, thus some folk may be under the influence of alcohol after a few drinks while someone else may do fine until a couple had been poured down their throat in short order. I believe your summary of my statement to be correct. I do not intend to suggest that anyone other than the protected government funded classes of Virginia society could legally consume alcohol and carry a concealed weapon in the places defined by the code.

    I certainly am no fan of universal BAC limits defining the level of impairment for folk consuming alcohol. Only a thorough, proscribed testing, performed by an uninterested party should be used for impairment testing, which I believe could result in various BACs being reported for the same levels of impairment.

    I am, however, not (here) supporting the carriage of a firearm or the driving of a vehicle of after the consumption of a beer or so with a meal, however, my issue is that the same ownership that bars firearm carry for everyone (regardless of alcohol consumption on the possibility that one would carry and consume) then ignores its own reasoning and will then serve copious quantities of alcohol to anyone who has the right age and the ability to pay without regard to the fact that the person may then walk right out and operate a vehicle.
    Well said, and I love the phrase "protected government funded classes of Virginia society".
    James Reynolds

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    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Lynchburg does have its share of bigots. From my early days as a child there I noticed it. One thing that I know for sure is money talks.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I'll throw my $.02 in with that...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

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    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    I just spoke with the general manager of the Craddock-Terry Hotel and briefly explained why I called and asked to whom I could draft a letter and make my case for the carriage of firearams on premises. The gentleman was quite cordial and asked me to address the letter to him and he would forward the information on to the owners of the hotel and restaurant. I hope to get my draft tonight and I may ask for suggestions shortly thereafter.

    I'll keep you all informed. I do hope for a reversal of policy even if the restaurants choose to not serve alcohol to those carrying. I'd hate to permanently scratch the Waterstone off of my list of favorite places to dine.

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    Formerly No Problem Restaurants & Hotel Now Denies Civil Right.
    Which civil right would that be? If your answer is the civil right to OC on private property, you'd be wrong.

    There is no right to posses a gun on private property if you are not the property owner.. You may have license to do so from the owner of the property. That license may be revoked at any time without regard to circumstance as the owner sees fit. Not saying don't protest, just don't frame it as a civil rights violation.

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    Here is my intended letter. Let me know your thoughts and suggestions.

    Mr. Jonathon Miller

    Beck Company Hotels

    c/o Craddock-Terry Hotel

    1312 Commerce Street

    Lynchburg, VA 24504



    May 5, 2009



    Dear Mr. Miller,



    On Thursday April 30, 2009 my girlfriend and I arrived at the Waterstone restaurant associated with the Craddock Terry Hotel, looking forward to enjoying tasty pizza and friendly service, much as we had received many times before. However, as we approached the entrance I noticed a new sign to the right of the door with the figure of a firearm circled and a note to the effect of “No Firearms or other Weapons Permitted.” Seeing this sign, my girlfriend and I turned and walked back to my car to find another place to dine.



    Prior to leaving the premises on this night, however, I left my sidearm in the car and returned to speak with manager on duty to let him know that the new signage had cost the restaurant a customer. As I returned to the entrance the general manager met me on the porch and greeted me as he had many other times that I had dined there. During our cordial conversation I regretfully informed him that the new signage had cost the restaurant my business, since I do not wish to give up my means of self defense just to dine out. The manager then informed me that servers had been found serving alcohol to customers carrying a sidearm and that he disapproved of this action. As such, rather than simply ask the servers to not serve alcoholic beverages to diners carrying a sidearm, all diners are required to give up their sidearms even to dine without having a beer or wine with dinner. The general manager further informed me that the Shoemaker’s restaurant and the Craddock Terry Hotel make the same request of all diners and guests, unless they are law enforcement officers (whom the U.S. Federal Courts find to have no responsibility for the protection of any particular person).



    I have dined many times at this same restaurant wearing my sidearm openly in accordance with Virginia law and further have spoken with the management on many occasions while dining, often to note my pleasure with the operation of the restaurant and its improvements since opening. At no time was I made to feel unwelcome whether I was dining soberly with my sidearm at my side or having a beer or two with my sidearm left at home. (Note here that although I have chosen and will continue to chose to dine unarmed while having a beer, Virginia law only requires that guests openly carrying a sidearm not be under the influence of alcohol while armed, much the same as those who would operate a vehicle after consuming alcohol.) I have dined at the Waterstone since its opening, have returned as a customer despite the restaurant’s start-up troubles and have recommended this restaurant to many friends with whom I’ve also dined there. Needless to say that despite being a loyal customer, I feel betrayed that I have now been asked to either choose to dine un-armed without a means to protect myself or dine somewhere else. When given this option I will continually choose to dine somewhere that honors its customers’ desire to keep themselves safe by carrying a means to self-defense (my sidearm in this case) over a place that asks that everyone disarm in the all too often misplaced hope that nothing will go wrong while dining disarmed and further hopes that those who would commit violent crimes will be deterred by a sign that might result in a mere trespassing charge.



    Mr. Miller as a result of Waterstone’s, Shoemaker’s and the Craddock Terry Hotel’s request that no firearms or other weapons be brought upon their premises, I will no longer spend my money at any of these businesses nor give my recommendations for these businesses because I believe that asking someone to give up their means of self protection for a meal or paid lodging is an unethical and immoral request. I do not ask that the restaurants and hotel serve alcohol to guests who are either carrying a sidearm or operating a vehicle if it so desires. I do, however, request that the restaurants and hotel allow guests to arm themselves for self defense as provide for by Commonwealth law when dining without the consumption of alcohol. I have alerted my friends and various fellow-minded people throughout the Commonwealth of Virginia of the new policies at Waterstone, Shoemaker’s and the Craddock Terry Hotel so that they may take their business to the many other restaurants and hotels that would not ask us to disarm for meal or lodging. It is my hope that you will forward my concerns on to the property owners and it is my hope that the owners will reverse their decision to bar service to those of us who simply do not wish to give up our sidearms and other legal means of self defense.



    Please do not hesitate to call me or write to me if you have any questions regarding anything that I have written. I look forward to your, or the property owner’s reply and hope to again be a welcome guest while carrying my sidearm at Waterstone, Shoemaker’s and the Craddock Terry Hotel.



    Thank you,



    jmelvin



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    jmelvin wrote:
    I do, however, request that the restaurants and hotel allow guests to arm themselves for self defense as provided for by Commonwealth law when dining without the consumption of alcohol.
    The only mistake (spelling-wise) I found. I didn't notice anything wrong grammatically. The letter is a little long, so you might consider making it a bit more brief.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    1
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Anyone else have thoughts or comments?

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    jmelvin wrote:
    Anyone else have thoughts or comments?

    I like it. A nice tone. No blasting attacks.

    The only thing I might suggest is see if you can find a few sentences you could leave out without taking away anything important. And see if you can find a few places where you can maybe re-word things and end up saying the same thing in fewer words.

    I mention this because shorter is better for a busy executive or secretary. I'm not saying yours is definitely too long. I'm just trying to see if there is maybe a way to shorten it down a little bit. Not too much. You don't want to seem "short" or curt.

    Using this part of the letter as an example:

    However, as we approached the entrance I noticed a new sign to the right of the door with the figure of a firearm circled and a note to the effect of “No Firearms or other Weapons Permitted.” Seeing this sign, my girlfriend and I turned and walked back to my car to find another place to dine.

    Prior to leaving the premises on this night, however, I left my sidearm in the car and returned to speak with manager on duty to let him know that the new signage had cost the restaurant a customer.


    This could maybe be shortened to something along the lines of:

    "As I entered the restaurant, I was stopped short by a new sign, 'No Weapons Permitted.' Initially thinkingto dine elsewhere,I stowed my sidearm in my car and spoke with the manager on duty to let him know the sign had cost the restaurant a customer."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Good stuff all. Thanks!

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    I thought I'd provide some follow up on my previous posting. It has been nearly a month now since my girlfriend and I visited Waterstone Pizza here in Lynchburg, only to find that they now ban the carrying of firearms. On May 6 I sent out a letter similarly worded to what I posted here and have heard no reply in the ensuing weeks. Having heard no reply I thought I'd drive by the restaurant tonight to see if the sign had come down without any formal reply. Unfortunately the "No Firearms..." sign is still in place, so it is now evident that the owners don't much care if they turn away customers that have been with them from the opening of this restaurant.

    For the sake of others I will post this on AbNo's (I think it's his, forgive me if someone else's) friend or foe site so that the users can be notified of where not to go when visiting Lynchburg. If the results of this posting were put out in the VCDL weekly newsletter it would be appreciated as well, but not expected. If necessary I could provide some short write up that would sum up the issue in quick order for an e-mail release.

    Nearly all places I've visited here in Lynchburg have had no issue with me carrying while dining (save for Waterstone, Shoemaker's, Craddock Terry Hotel and Buffalo Wild Wings). So if you find yourself in Lynchburg, avoid the few places mentioned here and enjoy the various other dining options instead!

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