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Thread: Non CPL Transportation Qs. for Open carry

  1. #1
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    I'd like to start off by saying Hello to everyone here at Open Carry. "I'm a long time listener first time caller " to say the least.

    I'm well aware of the laws pertaining to open carry, as well aware of the 'lawful purpose' ( MCL 750.231a ) transportation law. Since I cannot carry concealed, is it wise to Open Carry?

    The main time I would carry is while walking/jogging around my home.My destination, as well as starting location being my home. So perfectly acceptable for a lawful purpose.

    I'm more interested in carrying 'abroad' for lack of a better term. I realize that OCing in business's is at there discretion. 95% of the local business's told me they"Follow all state laws in which there business resides". If I call and ask any business I plan on stopping in (to quell ANY 'tresspassing' issues early) what there policy is.

    Would, since stores are private property, inserting a magazine and possibly chambering a round be acceptable without the need to do it "covertly". Obviously I will observe discretion, but I personally am more worried about the man fidgeting and nervious with a firearm then a man just putting another tool on his belt.

    Also, would leaving the pistol in a holster, inside of a case, unloaded in chamber and magazine during transport be the best way to transition from driving a vehicle to Open Carrying? Again, I have no CPL at this time. That is more or less what I do when I go hunting. Gun locked up, ammo put aside.

    I ask these questions because as of yet I haven't had the stones to Open carry other in the woods and on private property owned by family and friends. I know I'm within my rights, I know the restrictions on trasportation, and concealment (or lack thereof). But I guess I just need a word off assurance, or advice, not quite sure. But I know this is the best place to find answers on Open Carrying.

    Thanks,
    Mike

  2. #2
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    Welcome, Mike. You are off to a good start. You say you are aware of the laws, but have you read Wash, Rinse and Repeat and also Info on Michigan Open Carry? How about the threads on members carrying? You are getting your feet wet doing the private property carry, and getting used to the "feel" of carrying a holstered gun and that is great. Just read and re-read the above mentioned threads and ask questions here. There are several members here that are well versed on OC. Good luck, carry on. A good place to start carrying in public is with other members at an OC event, find one near you. By the way use the drop-down to edit your account to give Michigan "credit" for your membership.springerdave.

  3. #3
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    BreakingTheMold wrote: [quote]I'd like to start off by saying Hello to everyone here at Open Carry. "I'm a long time listener first time caller " to say the least.

    I'm well aware of the laws pertaining to open carry, as well aware of the 'lawful purpose' ([color="BLACK"][size="-1"][font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][font="Arial, Helvetica"]BreakingTheMold wrote: [/b]
    I'm more interested in carrying 'abroad' for lack of a better term. I realize that OCing in business's is at there discretion. 95% of the local business's told me they"Follow all state laws in which there business resides". If I call and ask any business I plan on stopping in (to quell ANY 'tresspassing' issues early) what there policy is.
    This is generally frowned upon as a bad idea. The only reason for you to do it is to essentially ask permission (sometimes thought of as courtesy) to do something that is perfectly within your right to do. Furthermore, asking permission for something that you need no permission to do will often result in a denial of permission because people just don't want to take the chance.

    Asking in advance will do nothing to quell ANY 'trespassing' issues early, because it isn't trespassing untill you are asked to leave, and you then refuse. It will have the potential of prompting that business to post a sign restricting the right to carry.

    If you are not confident to OC without asking permission, then you might have a hard time when an officer challenges you for it.



    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    Would...inserting a magazine and possibly chambering a round be acceptable without the need to do it "covertly". Obviously I will observe discretion, but I personally am more worried about the man fidgeting and nervious with a firearm then a man just putting another tool on his belt.
    This is what many have done before getting a CPL. They get out of the car, load up, and carry on. Remember to not let the gun reside within any part of the vehicle once loaded.



    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    Also, would leaving the pistol in a holster, inside of a case, unloaded in chamber and magazine during transport be the best way to transition from driving a vehicle to Open Carrying? Again, I have no CPL at this time. That is more or less what I do when I go hunting. Gun locked up, ammo put aside.
    You ultimately have to decide what works best for you. Some people have suggested this method in the past, otheres have found different ways.



    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    I ask these questions because as of yet I haven't had the stones to Open carry other in the woods and on private property owned by family and friends. I know I'm within my rights, I know the restrictions on trasportation, and concealment (or lack thereof). But I guess I just need a word off assurance, or advice, not quite sure. But I know this is the best place to find answers on Open Carrying.
    Your off to a good start by coming here for research. One of the initial issues people deal with on OC is the confidence. My personal belief is that, "if your not confident, then start VERY slow". There are many in LE who do not appreciate private citizens carrying a gun, much less openly carrying a gun. It is MHO that if you do not have the confidence to not only recognize, but also appropriately deal with a hostile LEO encounter, then you probably aren't ready. That is why I wrote, "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT". That thread is stickied at the top of the board, and even still we hear of peple reporting that officers are using their words against them to try to prosecute them.

    I've been lurking on cop boaards recently and am deeply saddened and concerned, because the retorhic on those boards is far worse than it would have been two years ago. This is reinforced by reports of officers unlawfully taking people voice recorders (they are only allowed to sieze weapons or contraband of a crime during the Terry Stop) during unlawful detentions.

    Be condifent, and know what your doing. Just because it's legal doesn't mean that the officers will respect your rights, and therefore respect the law.



  4. #4
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    Ahh, yes, the days before my CPL.

    I always felt awkward going to my trunk to load and chamber my handgun before holstering and walking in the store. However, in my 2-3 months doing that, I don't think I even got a single look, comment, or otherwise. I did my best to be discreet about it (attempting to hide what i'm doing inside my trunk, wait until there's not many people around, etc.) but sometimes you can't help it.

    For some stores, like gas stations, I almost felt like it was an unnecessary hassle just to load up for the 3-5 minute trip inside. But that's the way it is sometimes, thanks to our wonderful laws that (don't) make us safer....

    -Zzz

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    Welcome to OCDO Mike.

    BreakingTheMold wrote:

    Also, would leaving the pistol in a holster, inside of a case, unloaded in chamber and magazine during transport be the best way to transition from driving a vehicle to Open Carrying? Again, I have no CPL at this time. That is more or less what I do when I go hunting. Gun locked up, ammo put aside.
    If you don't mind carrying without a round in the chamber, you can leave the pistol in its holster (assuming paddle type) and just insert the mag in the well before or after placing it on your hip. This would be especially useful for those quick trips at a gas station or party store. This would also prevent numerous chambering of a round that can lead to bullet setback possibly causing an over pressured round.

    There is no law that prohibits loaded mags for non-CPL holders who choose to keep the loaded mag in the case with the gun. It's only unlawful for you to have the loaded mag in the well under transport.

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    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    Would, since stores are private property, inserting a magazine and possibly chambering a round be acceptable without the need to do it "covertly". Obviously I will observe discretion, but I personally am more worried about the man fidgeting and nervious with a firearm then a man just putting another tool on his belt.

    The way I do it is I wear my holster at all times, even when driving the car because it is a pain to remove my paddle holster. With that said, when I exit a store and am preparing to drive I open the trunk, open my case and remove the magazine from the gun, place the magazine in the case, then remove the gun from the holster and place it in the case (for now I don't not carry with a chamber gun), close the case and trunk, then drive.

    If I am getting out of the car and plan on OCing I open the trunk, open the case, place the gun in my holster, then place the magazine in the gun.

    It is important to remember that if you are driving a vehicle that has a TRUNK, only then can the magazine be in the same case or area as the firearm.

    If you are driving a truck that has one whole compartment (such as a Jeep Cherokee, or van) the magazine (and possibly ALL ammo???) must be in a different area than the firearm.

    Just make sure you are covered on the "lawful purpose of transportation" part when in possesion of your gun(s) when you don't have a CPL. Most officers are out throw the book at people; this includes law abiding citizens. It's just another notch on there belt.

    Read WASH, RINSE, REPEAT, and the other topics suggested. Read all 79 pages of the "Open Carry Experiences" thread, and the many other threads on this portion of the forum. Also remember DON'T TELL ANY OFFICER ANYTHING MORE THAN YOU HAVE TO (which isn't much, sometimes nothing). If they arrest you, they arrest you. Don't let them try and scare you. As long as you follow the laws to a T, you'll be fine in a court of law. Stand tall, and don't talk with anybody other than YOUR lawyer.

    Welcome, read, ask questions, and carry on!

    T.

  7. #7
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    Thank you all for your very sound advice. I have been reading and reviewing the Rinse & Repeat thread as suggested. As well as looking up experiences from Berrien county.

    "I went to the Berrien County (Michigan) gun board for my CCW renewal. The board consisted of a Sheriff Lt., MSP Sgt., and prosecuting att. I asked if it was legal to strap a pistol on my hip and open carry without a permit. All three nodded and said yes at the same time..."

    Is the only local, anecdotal evidence I have. But certainly a boost of confidence.

    Also, should I send along some of the information compiled in the [more or less] "Dear LEO" letter?

    I already have a digital tape recorder, some printed information[mainly MCL codes], and perhaps more importantly, the confidence and knowledge to 'hold my own' In a LEO encounter. I'm a firm believer in "There are no surprises, only consequences", And I really cant suffer any more fiscal consequences. That is the only thing that gives me butterflies about OCing. But if I do everything to a 'T' I should have nothing to worry about, other then informing people of there rights.

  8. #8
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    T Vance wrote:
    It is important to remember that if you are driving a vehicle that has a TRUNK, only then can the magazine be in the same case or area as the firearm.

    If you are driving a truck that has one whole compartment (such as a Jeep Cherokee, or van) the magazine (and possibly ALL ammo???) must be in a different area than the firearm.
    T Vance... Can you find the information to back that up for me? I drive a pick up, and this could effect me.... thanks

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    I can't find it right now, but I remember Venatar replying to a topic with that law underlined. I'll look later when I have a minute.

  10. #10
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    T Vance wrote:
    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    It is important to remember that if you are driving a vehicle that has a TRUNK, only then can the magazine be in the same case or area as the firearm.

    If you are driving a truck that has one whole compartment (such as a Jeep Cherokee, or van) the magazine (and possibly ALL ammo???) must be in a different area than the firearm.

    Not true, you can have ammo in the same case as the gun as there is no law that states otherwise. Only the gun must be unloaded.



    The only time it's mentioned in law is the concealed law, which states that if you are drinking you have to have the gun unloaded and in a locked case separate from the ammo. But this is only for CPL holders.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  11. #11
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    Venator wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    It is important to remember that if you are driving a vehicle that has a TRUNK, only then can the magazine be in the same case or area as the firearm.

    If you are driving a truck that has one whole compartment (such as a Jeep Cherokee, or van) the magazine (and possibly ALL ammo???) must be in a different area than the firearm.

    Not true, you can have ammo in the same case as the gun as there is no law that states otherwise. Only the gun must be unloaded.



    The only time it's mentioned in law is the concealed law, which states that if you are drinking you have to have the gun unloaded and in a locked case separate from the ammo. But this is only for CPL holders.
    So what are differences in transporting a gun in a car with at trunk, and something like a van. I swore that was the way it was worded. I remember you posted something recently about it, and the post had those areas underlined.

  12. #12
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    T Vance wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    It is important to remember that if you are driving a vehicle that has a TRUNK, only then can the magazine be in the same case or area as the firearm.

    If you are driving a truck that has one whole compartment (such as a Jeep Cherokee, or van) the magazine (and possibly ALL ammo???) must be in a different area than the firearm.

    Not true, you can have ammo in the same case as the gun as there is no law that states otherwise. Only the gun must be unloaded.



    The only time it's mentioned in law is the concealed law, which states that if you are drinking you have to have the gun unloaded and in a locked case separate from the ammo. But this is only for CPL holders.
    So what are differences in transporting a gun in a car with at trunk, and something like a van. I swore that was the way it was worded. I remember you posted something recently about it, and the post had those areas underlined.
    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
    Sec. 231a.

    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(yos...e=mcl-750-231a

    T Vance, it wouldn't hurt to make a copy of this and leave it in your vehicle and/or on your person.

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