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Thread: Wild West Tech on History Channel - Open Carry

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    I was watching Wild West Tech show about Gunslingers and they started discussing the Shootout at the OK Corral. What was so interesting is that they were talking about how Open Carry of guns were prohibited in the towns of the Old West and neither Doc Holliday nor Wyatt Earp were wearing holsters. Their version was nothing like the movie, surprise, surprise.

    I did some checking and found this article on wikipedia that is worth reading especially the part about no carrying of guns.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfigh...he_O.K._Corral
    Relevant law in Tombstone

    Ordinances Relevant in the Preliminary Hearing in the Earp-Holliday Case, Heard before Judge Wells Spicer.


    November 1881

    Ordinance No. 9:
    "To Provide against Carrying of Deadly Weapons" (effective April 19, 1881).

    Section 1. "It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons, concealed or otherwise [except the same be carried openly in sight, and in the hand] within the limits of the City of Tombstone.

    Section 2: This prohibition does not extend to persons immediately leaving or entering the city, who, with good faith, and within reasonable time are proceeding to deposit, or take from the place of deposit such deadly weapon.

    Section 3: All fire-arms of every description, and bowie knives and dirks, are included within the prohibition of this ordinance."

    Ordinance No. 7, Section 1:
    "Any establishment, house of prostitution or other place open to the public and it shall be the duty of any officer to enter such place and at once arrest such persons as he may then find engaged in or causing such breach of the peace." (effective April 12, 1881).

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    Interesting indeed!

    But wouldn't those ordinances be pre-empted under state law?
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Yeah, that's always been one of he things that bothered me about Earp and his gang. They were essentially gun-grabbers.

    I love the movie Tombstone, but after watching it I thought to myself that the Clanton gang were probably better people in real life...

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    DOC ,

    SHE HAD ME AT HUCKLEBERRY PANCAKES .

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    demnogis wrote:
    Interesting indeed!

    But wouldn't those ordinances be pre-empted under state law?
    Seeing as how this was in 1881 and AZ didn't become a state until 1912 there were at least a few years when it wouldn't have been pre-empted by state law.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Yeah, that's always been one of he things that bothered me about Earp and his gang. They were essentially gun-grabbers.

    I love the movie Tombstone, but after watching it I thought to myself that the Clanton gang were probably better people in real life...
    Well, if one were to think that stealing cattle, robbing stage coaches and Wells Fargo payroll stages, and murdering people then yes, I suspect one might think that the Clanton's and the McLaury's and Ringo and Brocius were real stand up men.

    Naw, don't you believe it. One of the best books about Wyatt's life was written by Casey Tefertiller called, "Wyatt Earp: The Life Behind the Legend".

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    SFCRetired wrote:
    It was my great privilege some years back to know some members of the Clanton family living here in Alabama. They didn't talk a lot about their famous relatives, but what they did have to say pretty well confirmed that the relatives were not nice folks.

    For the record, the Clantons I knew were some of the finest people I've ever had the privilege of knowing.

    I wish I could remember where I read it, but there was an account of an interview (many, many long years ago) with a man who knew the Earps. His major comment was that the Earps, in general, and especially Wyatt, were "meaner than a nest of p*****-off rattlesnakes."
    So the Clantons were probably nasty outlaws, and if what was said on History Channel about the Earps allegedly being a bunch of racketeering pimps using their badges to protect their turf, then it starts to sound an awful lot like a modern story about a corrupt police force having a turfwar with an outlaw drug gang.

    Can't side with either one, and we'd be better off if they'd both go away.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Ordinance No. 9:
    "To Provide against Carrying of Deadly Weapons" (effective April 19, 1881).

    Section 1. "It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons, concealed or otherwise [except the same be carried openly in sight, and in the hand] within the limits of the City of Tombstone.
    So, if you were on your way to "get even" with that guy who cheated you at poker last night, you were just fine until you pointed the gun and pulled the trigger?

    Sounds like they had a high threshold for brandishing and "going armed to the terror...".


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    I know a guy named Earp. First time I met himI HAD to ask about his name! Really was joking and not sure if his "yeah my family" reply was also a joke- or not?



    Last time I saw him he was OCing a hunting knife and I was wearing my XD9. Oh yeah he STILL tries to get me to go out with him and he is probably25 years older than me! When I first met him he was creepy. Well he knows now I am not to be messed with! He more than respects me now! Been a good customer of mine since near the beginning though, I just had to keep an eye on him LOL. For laughs I should let him take me out to eat somewhere-in PA!. I'll be OCing my XD40, and we meet seperately so he can't have fun with me when I am disarmed on the MD side. LOL at that!

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    In re: the Earps

    Given what we know about frontier peace officers (peace officers, not policemen -- a major distinction) it has always puzzled me that popular entertainment persists in portraying them as selfless paragons of virtue, committed to the rule of law and an almost biblical moral code.

    Balderdash! Wyatt and his brothers and
    the Mastersons and Hickock and Bear River Tom Smith and the others earned their money primarily by protecting gambling houses and brothels, legal businesses. Many of them were professional gamblers hired for their fighting skills and their willingness to use them. No judgment here, merely a fact.

    Even by the standards of that day many of these men would have been at least slightly unsavory figures. But in their milieu of trail towns and mining camps it took a certain kind of man to survive and prevail.

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    old dog wrote:
    In re: the Earps

    Given what we know about frontier peace officers (peace officers, not policemen -- a major distinction) it has always puzzled me that popular entertainment persists in portraying them as selfless paragons of virtue, committed to the rule of law and an almost biblical moral code.

    Balderdash! Wyatt and his brothers and
    the Mastersons and Hickock and Bear River Tom Smith and the others earned their money primarily by protecting gambling houses and brothels, legal businesses. Many of them were professional gamblers hired for their fighting skills and their willingness to use them. No judgment here, merely a fact.

    Even by the standards of that day many of these men would have been at least slightly unsavory figures. But in their milieu of trail towns and mining camps it took a certain kind of man to survive and prevail.
    Deadwood ain't for the faint hearted ...



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    Yes, many of the peace officers of the 'Old West' were not unstained angels. Some were no better than those they protected against. As was said above, it took a certain type to maintain order in the boom towns, cow towns and other settlements of the day.

    I will stand up for Virgil Earp, however. As a citizen of Prescott between 1877 and 1879; and again between 1895 and 1903, he was considered an upstanding and fine citizen. He was appointed village night watchmen, then elected constable. In 1900 he was the Republican nominee for for Yavapai County Sheriff (he withdrew--possibly for health reasons). Here hewas a business owner, rancher, peace officer and candidate for public office.

    While I don't agree with Tombstone Ordinance 9, I it was a reaction to a real and difficult problem facing the boom town. It shows that the battle between civil rights and public safety, which are debated even today, is an old one.

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    When I was a schoolboy we were repeatedly told that the "wild West" was tamed only when people in the city limits had to deposit their firearms with law enforcement. The only example of Wyatt we had was provided by Hugh O'Brien on TV every week A lot of my generation grew up having drunk that early weakened Kool-aid. I actually got sent for a talk with the guidance counselor when I asked - at age 10 - how smart it was to expect bad guys (being bad) to be good and turn in their guns!! (BTW this was 1963 pre-Oswald). NOT the Principal, mind you, the guidance counsellor, who had the school psychologist give me a battery of tests some of whch I realized even at that early age to have dark, sinister sexual content.

    This stuff has been going on for a long time. Here is a bulletin, folks. About 5 years ago some movie company was set to make a movie called "G.I. Joe". But it was not going to be about the all-American hero depicted in the action figure. OH NO! It was going to be about a specialized warrior called "Global Integrated Joint Operating Entity". Such an outcry went up from this revision that the movie was cancelled. BUT!

    I just saw an ad today for that very movie!! Since the Ubamanistas won this last one they apparently think the whole country is ripe for brainwashing.

    It's enough to make me "Earp" my lunch all over the floor.

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    I was just thinking about the whole "wild wild west" myth. I havent really researched it further than the Hickok vs Tutt shootout, which a History Channel marksmanship show said was the example from which the myth of blood constantly flowing in the streets came.

    But, wasn't clear water much more scarce those days without a well or body of water? When did towns start providing water pumping to all their residents?

    Leaving out the real alcoholics who drunk themselves into unconsciousness...
    I think more people back then were drinking alcohol all the time out of necessity, and that could have led to less inhibited fights.

    An armed and generally intoxicated society might have been less polite than now, when we have so many non-alcoholic beverages ready to drink 24/7.

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    The Tombstone saga is much more convoluted than Hollywood lets on.

    The Earps were not paragons of virtue. They were street toughs, like most Western peace officers, and generally sold their guns to the highest bidder. They were gamblers and occasional pimps but in a time and place where these occupations were not looked upon as necessarily bad. Were the Earps brave men? Absolutely! No one ever questioned their physical courage. Wyatt and Virgil were also big men -- six-footers in an era when the average was about 5'-8".

    The Clantons were thieves and rustlers. This also was not frowned upon so much in the time and place. The Clanton patriarch in fact was killed in a battle with Mexican vaqueros while on a cattle-stealing expedition.

    The Tombstone fight also involved Republican-Democrat, town and rural political tensions along with a noisome deal involving a sheriff's race. And then there was the stage holdup in which driver Bud Philpott, a well-liked local, was murdered -- probably by Doc Holliday.

    To me a poignant fact about the fight at the O.K. Corral (actually the gunfight in the alley beside Fly's photo studio which led to the corral) is that the loudmouth Ike Clanton ran away and left his 19-year-old brother to die pleading for ammunition to fight on.

    I don't understand why Hollywood corrupts the telling of these Old West stories. No dramatist could hope to improve on the real thing. These were flesh-and-blood people, heir to all man's strengths and weaknesses.


    BTW, Arizona was still a territory in 1881.

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    Maybe the Duke said it best:

    I'm paraphasing:

    "When a man gets tired of selling his gun all over the place he settles down,becomes a lawman, and sells it in one place."

    Or something along that line. Can't remember what movie it was from.... it was the one where they are keeping some guy in jail and waiting 6 days for the marshals to arrive while being constantly under seige by the guys brother.
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    Let me put it baldly: The gunfight at the O.K. Corral was in no sense a triumph of decency and public order over the Dark Side. It was -- first and last -- nothing more nor less than a simple business killing. It was Capone and the SMC Cartage Co. It was Charles Becker and Beansy Rosenthal. It was Luciano and Lansky and Maranzano and Masseria in the Castellamarese War. It was Michael Corleone settling scores on the silver screen. It was the way things were done then and the way they are done today and we do no one a service by pretending otherwise.

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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    Maybe the Duke said it best:

    I'm paraphasing:

    "When a man gets tired of selling his gun all over the place he settles down,becomes a lawman, and sells it in one place."

    Or something along that line. Can't remember what movie it was from.... it was the one where they are keeping some guy in jail and waiting 6 days for the marshals to arrive while being constantly under seige by the guys brother.
    The movie was "Rio Bravo", with The Duke, Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson & Walter Brennan. It was on a few nights ago. My wife hates westerns.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    old dog wrote:
    Let me put it baldly: The gunfight at the O.K. Corral was in no sense a triumph of decency and public order over the Dark Side. It was -- first and last -- nothing more nor less than a simple business killing. It was Capone and the SMC Cartage Co. It was Charles Becker and Beansy Rosenthal. It was Luciano and Lansky and Maranzano and Masseria in the Castellamarese War. It was Michael Corleone settling scores on the silver screen. It was the way things were done then and the way they are done today and we do no one a service by pretending otherwise.
    True enough.

    From today's Daily Press (Newport News, VA):

    "In large part they have numerous arrests and run-ins with the law, typically involving drugs. We know drugs fuel a tremendous level of violence in this city," he said. "It's been exacerbated by the fact that we now have younger kids joining gangs. The gangs are using drugs as a means of raising money, and they are using violence as a way of enforcing their territory."
    http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-lo...,6183447.story
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    "In large part they have numerous arrests and run-ins with the law, typically involving drugs. We know the prohibition of drugs fuel a tremendous level of violence in this city," he said. "It's been exacerbated by the fact that we now have younger kids joining gangs. The gangs are using drugs as a means of raising money, and they are using violence as a way of enforcing their territory."
    Fixed it for him.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    then it starts to sound an awful lot like a modern story about a corrupt police force having a turfwar with an outlaw drug gang.
    You mean like Chicago?
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    Just got back from the Dulles Gun Show (now filling BOTH halls of the Convention Center!) and when I went in I was greeted by a sign that said "NO Loaded Firearms NO exceptions! (gee, not even law enforcement?) However it was not Wyatt Earp nor State or Federal Law that mandated this, it was the (who else) insurance company.

    Any doubts as to why mandatory Obamacare would be bad news for gun owners?

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