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Incorrect info on OCDO

mqondo

Regular Member
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Mar 26, 2009
Messages
223
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SLC, Utah, USA
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I was just browsing on OCDO, looking at the maps section. I noticed that it says that for OC you have to be 21 in Utah to do so. It's actually 18.
Found here: http://www.opencarry.org/age.html

I also noticed that it says that you have to have a permit/license to OC in a car. This is also incorrect. You only have to have a license to CC in a car, but that is about to change soon.
Found here: http://www.opencarry.org/ut.html under "open car carry".

There may be others, but those are the two that I saw right off the bat.
 

Kevin Jensen

State Researcher
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Santaquin, Utah, USA
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The maps on the homepage define "open carry" as carrying a LOADED handgun. Since you need a permit to carry LOADED in Utah, and must be 21 to get a permit here, the owners of this website set the age to OC at 21.

Again, you do need a permit to carry LOADED in a vehicle in Utah, but as you said, that will change on May 12th, and hopefully so will the car carry info on the homepage. :D

As far as other info is concerned, I have sent numerous updates to John and Mike, and nothing ever seems to get updated. :(
 

mqondo

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That makes sense, but might be misleading for those who want to OC that are under 21 but 18 or over, and don't mind if their gun is unloaded. Just my thoughts. Thanks for the info SGT.
 

Kevin Jensen

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If somebody plans on carrying openly, they need to do a little more research than simply looking at pretty colors on a map. You've done your research, and noticed the 18 - 21 difference. Some people still believe that you need to be 21 just to own a handgun!
 

Mike

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Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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Here is the link to the Utah page which you get to by clicking on Utah on the map: http://www.opencarry.org/ut.html

What is the date that the new car cary law kicks in? That will trigger updating of the car carry fields. Also the field for min age to OC (loaded) needs to be corrected to I guessa bifurcated 18/21 depending on whether you are in a car.

Are there any other errors on this page?
 

mqondo

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Mar 26, 2009
Messages
223
Location
SLC, Utah, USA
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Mike wrote:
Here is the link to the Utah page which you get to by clicking on Utah on the map: http://www.opencarry.org/ut.html

What is the date that the new car cary law kicks in? That will trigger updating of the car carry fields. Also the field for min age to OC (loaded) needs to be corrected to I guessa bifurcated 18/21 depending on whether you are in a car.

Are there any other errors on this page?
This could be just my computer, but the link to Utah law doesn't pull up, nor the link under concealed carry "available at Handgunlaw.us" .
Probably doesn't really matter, and again, could be my computer.
 

Kevin Jensen

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Location
Santaquin, Utah, USA
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Mike wrote:
Are there any other errors on this page?



State Constitution
Article I, Section 6

The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the legislature from defining the lawful use of arms.


Minimum Age to OC
18 (Loaded open carry may be done with an out of state permit)


Preemption
Complete State Preemption of All Firearm Laws

NOTE: Almost all states allow local regulation of the discharge of firearms (Utah does.)


Open Car Carry
You may open carry or conceal inyour vehicle. (After May 12th)


Private Sales
Private Sales Are Legal


Permit Issued
ConcealedFirearm Permit (Valid for most dangerous weapons.)


K-12 Carry
Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute (with a Utah permit)

NOTE: The Federal Gun-Free School Zones Act Restricts Carry to Permit Holders

College Carry
Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute (with any State's permit)

Places Off Limits
Any school zone (Misdemeanor without a permit)
Interstate buses and trains
Intrastate buses and trains (UTA and TRAX, Felony without a permit!)
Secured Facilities (Courthouses, Jails, Mental Institutions...)

State Law
http://198.187.128.12/utah/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0

Official Documents
Suggestions folks?

State Organizations

Local Ordinances
Municipalities may only regulate firearm discharge.


Concealed Carry
Available at Handgunlaw.us
 

Nuttycomputer

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
65
Location
West Jordan, Utah, USA
imported post

Francis Marion wrote:
College Carry
Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute (at state colleges) (with any State's permit) (, private colleges my still prohibit carry.)

They MAY prohibit carry, but my understanding is there is nothing ILLEGAL about carrying there. You may just have to leave if they ask you.
 

utbagpiper

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Nuttycomputer wrote:
Francis Marion wrote:
College Carry
Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute (at state colleges) (with any State's permit) (, private colleges my still prohibit carry.)

They MAY prohibit carry, but my understanding is there is nothing ILLEGAL about carrying there. You may just have to leave if they ask you.
To be clear, the Utah gun free school zone law includes colleges and other institutions of higher ed including trade and vocational schools. So if a person has a CCW permit, he is legal to carry at colleges and any gun ban at a private college is a private matter.

The flip side, is that without a permit to carry, OC is technically illegal in and around a lot of strip malls with beauty colleges, and in industrial parks with autobody or mechanics trade schools. And in professional plazas with a College of Phoenix campus in them, or a massage school, etc, etc, etc.

I'm unaware of such things ever being enforced. And we really ought to bring Utah law into compliance with federal law and limit our gun free school zone to only K-12 (or just eliminate it all together). But you catch a bad day with a cop, prosecutor, and judge all looking to make a point, the OCer without a permit is probably in violation of Utah's gun free school zone law far more often than he thinks.

Charles
 

jaredbelch

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Joined
Aug 8, 2007
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545
Location
Cottonwood Heights, Utah, USA
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utbagpiper wrote:
Nuttycomputer wrote:
Francis Marion wrote:
College Carry
Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute (at state colleges) (with any State's permit) (, private colleges my still prohibit carry.)

They MAY prohibit carry, but my understanding is there is nothing ILLEGAL about carrying there. You may just have to leave if they ask you.
To be clear, the Utah gun free school zone law includes colleges and other institutions of higher ed including trade and vocational schools. So if a person has a CCW permit, he is legal to carry at colleges and any gun ban at a private college is a private matter.

The flip side, is that without a permit to carry, OC is technically illegal in and around a lot of strip malls with beauty colleges, and in industrial parks with autobody or mechanics trade schools. And in professional plazas with a College of Phoenix campus in them, or a massage school, etc, etc, etc.

I'm unaware of such things ever being enforced. And we really ought to bring Utah law into compliance with federal law and limit our gun free school zone to only K-12 (or just eliminate it all together). But you catch a bad day with a cop, prosecutor, and judge all looking to make a point, the OCer without a permit is probably in violation of Utah's gun free school zone law far more often than he thinks.

Charles
Though Utah Law exempts you from the Utah school zone restrictions while in a motor vehicle - So as long as you are simply driving through one of the 1000ft buffer zones, you are not in violation of Utah Law.




76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.

(1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
(2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
(iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
(4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.
 

Nuttycomputer

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Messages
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Location
West Jordan, Utah, USA
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utbagpiper wrote:

To be clear, the Utah gun free school zone law includes colleges and other institutions of higher ed including trade and vocational schools. So if a person has a CCW permit, he is legal to carry at colleges and any gun ban at a private college is a private matter.

The flip side, is that without a permit to carry, OC is technically illegal in and around a lot of strip malls with beauty colleges, and in industrial parks with autobody or mechanics trade schools. And in professional plazas with a College of Phoenix campus in them, or a massage school, etc, etc, etc.

I'm unaware of such things ever being enforced. And we really ought to bring Utah law into compliance with federal law and limit our gun free school zone to only K-12 (or just eliminate it all together). But you catch a bad day with a cop, prosecutor, and judge all looking to make a point, the OCer without a permit is probably in violation of Utah's gun free school zone law far more often than he thinks.

Charles


To be ultimately and annoyingly clear. If you open carry in Utah without a permit keep in mind it's only enforcable "at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises"

So unless as you enter a strip mall you see a big sign that says Beauty college or anything to that effect you have no reasonable cause to believe it's a school zone.

However I agree. I'm pushing my representatives to do away with both the post-secondary section and the activities section. Because if a High School choir is singing at the capital that is a school sponsered activity and the 1000' foot rule applies then as well.
 

utbagpiper

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Messages
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Utah
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Nuttycomputer wrote:
To be ultimately and annoyingly clear. If you open carry in Utah without a permit keep in mind it's only enforcable "at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises"

So unless as you enter a strip mall you see a big sign that says Beauty college or anything to that effect you have no reasonable cause to believe it's a school zone.

However I agree. I'm pushing my representatives to do away with both the post-secondary section and the activities section. Because if a High School choir is singing at the capital that is a school sponsered activity and the 1000' foot rule applies then as well.
Agreed. I would hate to stake my criminal record on proving I did not know or could not have reasonable believed what was or was not a school zone.

And I'd forgotten about the school sponsored activity section. True that within your own car is exempt. But this means if someone OCs in his car without a permit he needs to be prepared for how to handle a traffic stop in a school zone. My initial thoughts on the matter are to make the sure the gun is off person before actually stopping. Then, if/when the officer orders you out of your car, you don't end up violating a gun free school zone law. And then when the officer wants to hand your gun back to you, ask him to place it inside the car (or trunk at least) so you never actually handle the gun outside your car while in the school zone.

Fortunately, "bringing Utah State law into conformity with federal statute" is one of the easiest and quickest ways to get a bill passed through our legislature. So it shouldn't be too rough to get rid of the insitutions of higher ed and the school sponsored activities from our school zone law.

More difficult, perhaps, but also very much in need of doing, is getting rid of the stupid 1000' zone. I might not even be able to see or get directly to a school that is 1000' away as the crow flies. School grounds themselves should be clearly marked as such for ANY special rules that are going to apply. Of course, ideally, we'd drop this silly gun free school zone law altogether and just enforce the other 10,000 existing laws dealing with minors and guns, violence with guns, felons with guns, etc, etc, etc.

Charles
 

Nuttycomputer

Regular Member
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Messages
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Location
West Jordan, Utah, USA
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utbagpiper wrote:
Agreed. I would hate to stake my criminal record on proving I did not know or could not have reasonable believed what was or was not a school zone.

And I'd forgotten about the school sponsored activity section. True that within your own car is exempt. But this means if someone OCs in his car without a permit he needs to be prepared for how to handle a traffic stop in a school zone. My initial thoughts on the matter are to make the sure the gun is off person before actually stopping. Then, if/when the officer orders you out of your car, you don't end up violating a gun free school zone law. And then when the officer wants to hand your gun back to you, ask him to place it inside the car (or trunk at least) so you never actually handle the gun outside your car while in the school zone.

Maybe I have an idealized standpoint on the government but you wouldn't need to prove that you didn't know the school zone was there. Presumably it would be up to the Prosecution to prove the opposite since it should be assumed that you didn't know or break that statute. Although maybe "innocent until proven guilty" is overrated these days.

Also I wouldreally have no conern for a traffic stop when in a school zone. If the cop asked me to step out of my vehicle so he could disarm me then I don't see how you could ever befound guiltywith possessing a firearm in a school zone. Since if you were charged it would be entrapment; especially if you took the optionalmeasures to let the officer know that complying with his orders would put you in breach of the law.
 

utbagpiper

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Nuttycomputer wrote:

Maybe I have an idealized standpoint on the government but you wouldn't need to prove that you didn't know the school zone was there. Presumably it would be up to the Prosecution to prove the opposite since it should be assumed that you didn't know or break that statute. Although maybe "innocent until proven guilty" is overrated these days.

Also I wouldreally have no conern for a traffic stop when in a school zone. If the cop asked me to step out of my vehicle so he could disarm me then I don't see how you could ever befound guiltywith possessing a firearm in a school zone. Since if you were charged it would be entrapment; especially if you took the optionalmeasures to let the officer know that complying with his orders would put you in breach of the law.
What should happen and what might happen are two different things. Indeed, what one might be able to prove, and what one can realistically afford to prove are often very different things.

I think most cops are decent people doing a dirty job. But it only takes one bad apple or even decent guy having a bad day to ruin your whole month.

I will forever remember a minor traffic infraction for which I was eventually acquitted. I give kudos to the judge for how she handled the case and her final ruling (of course). I also applaud the cop who gave me the ticket for being 100% honest on the stand, even when it became obvious that his honesty was winning the case for me.

However, I was shocked and appalled beyond words at the tactics the prosecuting attorney used in her attempt to win a trivial traffic case.

At the end of the day I won. But in raw monetary terms, I would have probably broken even had I simply paid the fine and been done. Time off work for the trial, time researching the law, time preparing my case, parking fees for the downtown law library, and so on. And I did all this without paying an attorney. And the burden of proof to ever get reimbursed for your legal or other fees even if you win a criminal case is very high. You basically have to prove the DA KNEW he was prosecuting you when he should not have been.

So my theory is that it is a LOT cheaper and better to strictly obey the law and to work to change it on my terms than it is to ever risk being charged on the DA terms.

Charles
 

NewZealandAmerican

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
348
Location
Greater Salt Lake City Metro area far south suburb
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SGT Jensen wrote:
Mike wrote:
Are there any other errors on this page?



State Constitution
Article I, Section 6

The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the legislature from defining the lawful use of arms.


Minimum Age to OC
18 (Loaded open carry may be done with an out of state permit)


Preemption
Complete State Preemption of All Firearm Laws

NOTE: Almost all states allow local regulation of the discharge of firearms (Utah does.)


Open Car Carry
You may open carry or conceal inyour vehicle. (After May 12th)


Private Sales
Private Sales Are Legal


Permit Issued
ConcealedFirearm Permit (Valid for most dangerous weapons.)


K-12 Carry
Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute (with a Utah permit)

NOTE: The Federal Gun-Free School Zones Act Restricts Carry to Permit Holders

College Carry
Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute (with any State's permit)

Places Off Limits
Any school zone (Misdemeanor without a permit)
Interstate buses and trains
Intrastate buses and trains (UTA and TRAX, Felony without a permit!)
Secured Facilities (Courthouses, Jails, Mental Institutions...)

State Law
http://198.187.128.12/utah/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0

Official Documents
Suggestions folks?

State Organizations

Local Ordinances
Municipalities may only regulate firearm discharge.


Concealed Carry
Available at Handgunlaw.us
With the new law going into effect on May 12th meaning that I can carry my pistol in my car loaded without a permit does that mean I can open carry loaded without a permit outside of my car or do I still have to follow theold law that I carry unloaded as in 2 actions from firing (chamber empty)? That would be a pain to have to unholster and empty my chamber everytime I exit my car! If this is the case that would mean that after the 12th of may that OCDO could not update the map for UTAH to a "Goldstar Open Carry State" right?
 

Kevin Jensen

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Santaquin, Utah, USA
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You are correct, Utah will not become a "Gold Star Carry State". :( At least, not yet... ;)

Everything depends on how they define "public street".

76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
(i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
(4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

(a) You may now carry in your vehicle loaded.

(b) You may not carry loaded, without a permit, on a public street. But what is a public street? It is not defined by the legislature for this part. Is it a roadway that is maintained with public money? Is it all public in general? This law was overhauled by HB 357, but not enough in my opinion. This restriction needs to go away.

(c) You may not carry, without a permit, in a posted prohibited area. But what does that mean? Well, unlike "public street", the legislature has a definition for this one.

(14) "Prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.

So lets say your city or town (not county) has an ordinance prohibiting the discharge of firearms. If they post this ordinance (I have seen some towns do this) then that entirecity or town is off limits to loaded carry without a permit. Again, this is another broad ban on self defense, and it needs to go.

I am not sure how easy it would be to just erase 76-10-505, but itneeds tobe done. It seems easier to just amend a law, but the more this thing keeps getting amended, the more confusing it's going to become.

This law has been around longer than most of us have, and the last time it was amended was in 1990. There are some very interesting documents about it on the legislature's website.

Have a look... go to http://www.image.le.state.ut.us/imaging/bill.aspand type the word "weapons" in the subject line. It will show all bills from 1990-current that involved weapons.
 

Bushidonate

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
31
Location
Clearfield, Utah, USA
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Ok I need someone with a bit better understanding of how the school zone law is writen than i do.:banghead: I have my CCW permit. My Girlfriend lives inside the 1000 foot school zone barrier. I perfer to open carry, but am not against conceled either. My girl and I like to take her daughter for walks around her block. This puts me walking through the center of the school zone, and right past the school. As the law is writen, even though I have my CCW, am I in violation by open or concelled carry on these walks?

Thank you to any who can help.
 

Nuttycomputer

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
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Location
West Jordan, Utah, USA
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Bushidonate wrote:
Ok I need someone with a bit better understanding of how the school zone law is writen than i do.:banghead: I have my CCW permit. My Girlfriend lives inside the 1000 foot school zone barrier. I perfer to open carry, but am not against conceled either. My girl and I like to take her daughter for walks around her block. This puts me walking through the center of the school zone, and right past the school. As the law is writen, even though I have my CCW, am I in violation by open or concelled carry on these walks?

Thank you to any who can help.

The State Law says you cannot knowinglycarry (open or concealed) within 1000' of any K-12, Preschool, Post College, Or at Activities Sponsered by said institutions. UNLESS: Your on your own property or buisness property, Your in a vehicle, You Have Permission from the School, or You have been excempt from weapons laws. This is you because you have a permit. Applicable state code:


76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
(2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
(iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
(4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.



The Federal law says you cannot carry within 1000' of a K-12 school zone unless you are on your own property or have a permit Issued by the state in which the school zone resides.

So if you have a UTAH permit you are clear from both Federal and Utah Law. If you have a permit from another state you are only clear from UTAH's laws.

Though the Federal one has been known to be ignored because the last one was ruled unconstitutional and State/County/City Leos could only hold you for the FBI (If they know the law)

I don't have the Federal law handy but I'm sure someone could point to it.
 

Kevin Jensen

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
2,313
Location
Santaquin, Utah, USA
imported post

Bushidonate wrote:
As the law is writen, even though I have my CCW, am I in violation by open or concelled carry on these walks?
Nope. There is no law requiring concealment near a school, or anywhere for that matter.
 
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