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****OC in Detroit TODAY!*****

MI-copperhead

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118
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Anti-urban, Bible thumping, Tekonsha, Michigan, US
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TheSzerdi wrote:
I was cited with two civil infractions. 1) CPL Failure to disclose 2) Carrying a firearm on the premises of a sports arena / stadium

They confiscated my CPL, my firearm, and my swiss army pocket knife.
This is Bullshit. These A--hats in Detroit need their asses handed to them, financilly or otherwise. I'm quickly loosing all respect for lawofficers in Detroit.:cuss:
 

dougwg

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Nov 29, 2007
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MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
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I sent it to Wayne County

Here it is...





To:
sheriffevans@co.wayne.mi.us

Cc:
dpfannes@co.wayne.mi.us; dfordham@co.wayne.mi.us; dickers0@co.wayne.mi.us; sgatti@co.wayne.mi.us; KSemak@co.wayne.mi.us; Rwood@co.wayne.mi.us; shall@co.wayne.mi.us; asimenau@co.wayne.mi.us; dnero@co.wayne.mi.us; lcrider@co.wayne.mi.us



To whom it my concern:

There will be an Open Carry March today in front of Wayne County Jail 570 Clinton St. Detroit MI48226 on 5-4-2009 at 5:00pm.

Those attending will be law abiding citizens of Wayne County in response to threats by a member of the Wayne County Sheriff's officethat he wouldarrest for failure to provide I.D. when stopped while engaged in lawful activity.

FYI: Here is an information pack that Michigan Open CarryInc. sends out to local law enforcement.



Info pack that we send out goes here :) Removed to save bandwidth




Sincerely,



Douglas K. Holloway

Member

Michigan Open CarryInc.



P.S. If you wish to discuse this matter I can be reached by return e-mail or by cell phone at xxx-xxx-xxxx
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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TheSzerdi wrote:
Does anyone know in certainty that the Detoit Police Department was sent one of our informational packets before this incident? If so, was it sent certifiable mail or FedEx or in another manner that would allow us to confirm delivery?

I sent via email, the MOC LEO info packet over a year ago. It was the old female Chief before she went down with what's his name. I have no Idea what she may have done with the info, but I now have a guess...delete...delete...
 

MMC

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Jul 28, 2008
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LIVONIA, Michigan, USA
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I had a encounter with the Detroit Gods as well. sounds like they are on the hunt. Failure to disclose as well. after I told him and he took my gun
 

Taurus850CIA

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, Michigan, USA
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I think all three of you need to send all your info to all the same contacts. It might not hurt for it to slip to the media, either.
 

Michigander

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Mulligan's Valley
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Venator wrote:
I sent via email, the MOC LEO info packet over a year ago. It was the old female Chief before she went down with what's his name. I have no Idea what she may have done with the info, but I now have a guess...delete...delete...
Yep, that's what I was remembering.

What was done with it isn't our problem, because it is their problem that they didn't use the information. You covered our back sides by sending it, and they exposed theirs by ignoring it.
 

TheSzerdi

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Melvindale, Michigan, USA
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I had meetings with 2 lawyers today and everything sounds very hopeful. Gonna try to get the ball rolling on this as soon as possible. I'll let you guys know more as I can.

On a side note, John Freeman is quite pro-gun and seems to be a very competent criminal defense lawyer, however, he is also quite anti-opencarry. Dean Greenblat on the other hand described himself as a "civil libertarian" and backed it up with an impressive knowledge of firearms laws and case precedent.
 

Michigander

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Yep, Dean is VERY good with the law. It's not often that I meet someone outside of this group who knows more than I do about guns and gun laws, but he is certainly in that rare class of people.

He told me himself he's not real interested in open carrying, as in he doesn't want to do it himself, or become a spokesperson. But he's got nothing against us doing it, and obviously his civil libertarian attitude makes him willing to defend us in court. He's a good guy to have on speed dial.
 

DanM

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West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
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TheSzerdi wrote:
On a side note, John Freeman is quite pro-gun and seems to be a very competent criminal defense lawyer, however, he is also quite anti-opencarry.

Anyone who is "anti-"any form of legitimateexercise of the RKBA isn'tpro-gun. They are at least"anti-gun in part".
 

TheSzerdi

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DanM wrote:
Anyone who is "anti-"any form of legitimateexercise of the RKBA isn'tpro-gun. They are at least"anti-gun in part".

True enough. Freeman actually offered to come to an MOC event and speak about the advantages of CC'ing over OC'ing.

Plus he wanted to charge me a lot more and was far less interested in possible civil lawsuits or other such compensation.
 

Veritas

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Apr 23, 2009
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Oakland County, Michigan, USA
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TheSzerdi wrote:
True enough. Freeman actually offered to come to an MOC event and speak about the advantages of CC'ing over OC'ing.
I'd disagree with many so-called "advantages" of CC over OC.

From a TACTICAL perspective, I don't think there is any argument that OC is advantageous over CC. It is easier, safer, and faster to draw your firearm from an OC position than a CC position. This is why officers openly carry.

From a STRATEGIC perspective, advantages and disadvantages of OC vs CC depends on the circumstances. For instance, if you're walking down the street and an unarmed thug is thinking about trying to rob you, he may change his mind if he sees an open pistol. On the other hand, if the thug has a gun himself, he may just pop a bullet in your head and take your wallet (and gun) before you ever know he is there.

However, in the latter scenario, it is my opinion that you run the risk of being killed by a criminal who is A) carrying an illegal weapon, and B) predisposed to using it, whether you are open carrying or not.

The bigger strategic advantage to OC is that it creates awareness. Someone PMed me recently and asked my view on open carry. This is an excerpt from my response:

I believe in civil liberties. As this pertains to firearms, I am a strong 2A supporter. I'm aware that some people probably open carry because it's their way of bucking the status quo. But for me, it's much more practical than that. If you compare States with stringent gun laws to those that are more free, you tend to see a correlation between higher crime and increased gun law legislation. Washington DC and Chicago, for instance. In any given city across the State of Michigan, there are probably somewhere in the ballpark for 1,000 citizens for every one law enforcement officer. And unfortunately, we live in an age where the role of LEO has morphed from "protecting and serving" to "collecting revenue and looking for reasons to arrest". I am NOT anti LEO. I firmly believe that MOST LEO's are stand-up folks who fulfil their sworn duties to the best of their abilities. I believe it's a minority number of LEO's who paint a negative picture for the rest of them. Nonetheless, I do not have faith that an LEO, whether stand-up or not, has the ability to prevent most crimes.

Let me put it to you differently: An LEO carries a gun... and for what? For his/her protection. Why should a citizen not do the same? One can argue that an LEO is more likely to face dangerous or life-threatening situations than the average citizen; but I will vehemently disagree. What kind of fool would you have to be to walk up to a uniformed officer and try to rob him/her or commit a violent act against him/her? The average citizen is heads and tails more likely to be such a victim. And by the time the police get wind of the incident and respond to the scene, the perpetrator is usually gone; and unfortunately, the citizen has already become a victim. I'm going from memory here, but the City of Detroit has lost 10 officers over the last decade on the job. Truly unfortunate. But how many citizens were murdered in that same decade? I don't have the figures, but I can assure you it is WELL in excess of 10.

Armed citizens increase awareness amongst the crminal community and instills the fear into their minds that THEY might end up injured or dead if they attempt a violent crime on the wrong person. Armed citizens do not just protect the one carrying... it also protects those that choose not to.
If I'm having dinner in a restaraunt and someone starts to shoot up the place, you can bet that I will make an attempt to put a stop to it. Some people think, "Oh the chances of that happening are very slim." Perhaps, but the CHANCE still exists. For me, I'd rather be armed and never need to draw my pistol, then to need to draw a pistol and not be armed. Nevermind the fact that the new fad amongst crazy fools in this country is to walk into a school, restaurant, or shopping mall and just start shooting. Not on my watch. Above all, I firmly believe that a right that is not enforced eventually loses luster and is legislated away.
The only real strategic disadvantage to OC bs CC is that you give the would-be criminal a heads up... thus making you the first person they will probably try to take out if they are hell-bent on committing a crime. But overall, I believe the strategic advantage of awareness will do far more good than harm.

Again; if the strategic and tactical advantages of open carry did not outweigh those of concealed carry, then you'd see law enforcement shoving their pistols into their waistbands. With the exception of some investigave units (like the FBI or police detectives), most LEO's are still wearing their pistols on their hips in the open. If it's good enough and safe enough for them, then it's good enough and safe enough for us.

Oh yeah... the other argument against OC that I hear sometimes: If a criminal wants your gun, they're going to take it. You become a target and another gun ends up on the street. I call BS there. I mean, sure it can happen. But what kind of brass jewels do you have to have to walk up to someone with a gun and try to take it? Again, I'm sure it happens... but the potential benefits of wearing it open outweigh these slim-to-none "What If" scenarios. Once again, this is a risk that LEO's run and they still open carry.

The most likely "What If" scenario that ANYONE (law enforcement or otherwise) is going to run into is "What if I need to draw my gun in a hurry?" I'd rather be openly carrying for that scenario.
 

bb

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MMC, Was u oc or cc, sounds like u were cc, & if so u say you informedDP officer and u say he took your gun for not disclosing you had a cpl.
 

Michigander

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TheSzerdi wrote:
True enough. Freeman actually offered to come to an MOC event and speak about the advantages of CC'ing over OC'ing.

Plus he wanted to charge me a lot more and was far less interested in possible civil lawsuits or other such compensation.
Perhaps he shouldn't be on the go to list for MOC?
 

DanM

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Michigander wrote:
TheSzerdi wrote:
True enough. Freeman actually offered to come to an MOC event and speak about the advantages of CC'ing over OC'ing.

Plus he wanted to charge me a lot more and was far less interested in possible civil lawsuits or other such compensation.
Perhaps he shouldn't be on the go to list for MOC?

I very much disagree with Freeman's views, as I indicated above, but if he has a track record of beingan effective counselforOC clients, despite his personal views, then I say keep him on the list.

To borrow a sports saying, it's all about scoreboard. What's his track record in advocating for OC clients against illegitimate detentions/arrests/prosecutions? Rhetorical question, unless someone actually knows.
 

Venator

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DanM wrote:
Michigander wrote:
TheSzerdi wrote:
True enough. Freeman actually offered to come to an MOC event and speak about the advantages of CC'ing over OC'ing.

Plus he wanted to charge me a lot more and was far less interested in possible civil lawsuits or other such compensation.
Perhaps he shouldn't be on the go to list for MOC?

I very much disagree with Freeman's views, as I indicated above, but if he has a track record of beingan effective counselforOC clients, despite his personal views, then I say keep him on the list.

To borrow a sports saying, it's all about scoreboard. What's his track record in advocating for OC clients against illegitimate detentions/arrests/prosecutions? Rhetorical question, unless someone actually knows.

I have email him asking his stance on OC and if he wants to defend people for bogus charges. Depending on what he says we may or may-not remove his name.

As Dan says above, I agree. Steven Dulan is not an OC fan, nor is Jim Simmons, but both have said they will defend people for doing so.
 
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