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Encounter with LEO, and open carry in my car

R

ratbike

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Hello all, I am still fairly new to knowing and excersing my rights. So, here is something that happened to me one evening. Maybe you could help shed some light on this-it is kinda long

It was late-approx 10:30 pm. I pulled off the road to text some friends. The parking lot I pulled into was somewhat unoccupied-a couple cars, and an open laundry mat. Across the street was a gas station. The lot being as big as maybe a football field.

I was there for about 15 mins. On the otherside of the lot two cop cars pulled next to each other and sat-driver window to driver window. At around 20 mins there, they both drove over to me-spotlights on. As soon as they pulled up, I shut the car off and rolled the windows down.-I have tinted windows

Two LEO's approached-the one began asking me what i was doing there-then they saw my gun sitting on the pass seat in plain view- There next question-"Do you have a permit for that?" I said no, and the one on my pass side said I am removing the gun from the vehicle-I said why? He then reached in and took it off the seat. After that I was continued being questioned why I was there, can they search me, can they search the car, etc.

I said no, you cant search me, or the car, you have no reason to, I have done nothing wrong. They continued to push and play word games. Such as "It would be in my best interest to let them search me." As if to say I was doing wrong. After maybe 6 back and forth of no you cant search, I said fine-You can search me, but not the car. So I got out, and he patted me down, pulled my knife from pocket and laid it on the car. Then began the can we search your car. I said no, you have no reason to. The one who took my gun, then stepped up and chimed in-He began the whole if we dont then things will be bad for you. I said-I have done nothing wrong, no you cant search my car. I let you search me, thats it. Now give me back my gun.

At this time-Two more cars show up-so a total of three cars and one SUV. The one who took my gun walked away, and another cop came to question me with the first one who was holding my license. Same thing-why are you here, what are you doing, why do have a holster, etc....

After another 5-10 mins, I saw the cop-who tookmy gun-talk to the plain clothes officer who came in the SUV. I assume that was a supervisor. He then brought my gun to the officer with my license, gave it to him, and you could barely hear him say it-"let him go".

So, where could I have done better? Did I give them reason to take the gun from my car? I dont know anyone who could tell me if I had reaon to file charges-aside from going to a lawyer.
 
Deanimator

Deanimator

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ratbike wrote:
Hello all, I am still fairly new to knowing and excersing my rights. So, here is something that happened to me one evening. Maybe you could help shed some light on this-it is kinda long

It was late-approx 10:30 pm. I pulled off the road to text some friends. The parking lot I pulled into was somewhat unoccupied-a couple cars, and an open laundry mat. Across the street was a gas station. The lot being as big as maybe a football field.

I was there for about 15 mins. On the otherside of the lot two cop cars pulled next to each other and sat-driver window to driver window. At around 20 mins there, they both drove over to me-spotlights on. As soon as they pulled up, I shut the car off and rolled the windows down.-I have tinted windows

Two LEO's approached-the one began asking me what i was doing there-then they saw my gun sitting on the pass seat in plain view- There next question-"Do you have a permit for that?" I said no, and the one on my pass side said I am removing the gun from the vehicle-I said why? He then reached in and took it off the seat. After that I was continued being questioned why I was there, can they search me, can they search the car, etc.

I said no, you cant search me, or the car, you have no reason to, I have done nothing wrong. They continued to push and play word games. Such as "It would be in my best interest to let them search me." As if to say I was doing wrong. After maybe 6 back and forth of no you cant search, I said fine-You can search me, but not the car. So I got out, and he patted me down, pulled my knife from pocket and laid it on the car. Then began the can we search your car. I said no, you have no reason to. The one who took my gun, then stepped up and chimed in-He began the whole if we dont then things will be bad for you. I said-I have done nothing wrong, no you cant search my car. I let you search me, thats it. Now give me back my gun.

At this time-Two more cars show up-so a total of three cars and one SUV. The one who took my gun walked away, and another cop came to question me with the first one who was holding my license. Same thing-why are you here, what are you doing, why do have a holster, etc....

After another 5-10 mins, I saw the cop-who tookmy gun-talk to the plain clothes officer who came in the SUV. I assume that was a supervisor. He then brought my gun to the officer with my license, gave it to him, and you could barely hear him say it-"let him go".

So, where could I have done better? Did I give them reason to take the gun from my car? I dont know anyone who could tell me if I had reaon to file charges-aside from going to a lawyer.
Click to expand...

DON'T CONSENT TO ANYTHING, EVER!!!
 
R

ratbike

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I figured thats where I screwed up. LikeI said, I am new to knowing when my rights are being trampled.

As far as consenting goes-I have to show my ID when asked correct?
 
T

tag

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Alexandria, Virginia, USA
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ratbike wrote:
I figured thats where I screwed up. LikeI said, I am new to knowing when my rights are being trampled.

As far as consenting goes-I have to show my ID when asked correct?
Click to expand...
I think you only have to show your license if you're driving.

I have no cite. No time to look it up at the moment.

Edit: Found another thread about identification requirements in VA: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/10124.html
 
K

kenshin

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Don't give them the ability to restrict your rights. Should have kept the passenger window rolled up so that they couldn't have just reached in and taken your gun.

Good job not letting them search your car, but there was no reason to let them search you either. But hey, not to bad for a first time.
 
Deanimator

Deanimator

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ratbike wrote:
I figured thats where I screwed up. LikeI said, I am new to knowing when my rights are being trampled.

As far as consenting goes-I have to show my ID when asked correct?
Click to expand...
Let them ask 1,000 times. Just say "no" 1,000 times.
 
T

tag

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Deanimator wrote:
ratbike wrote:
I figured thats where I screwed up. LikeI said, I am new to knowing when my rights are being trampled.

As far as consenting goes-I have to show my ID when asked correct?
Click to expand...
Let them ask 1,000 times. Just say "no" 1,000 times.
Click to expand...
Would he be required to show his license because of this? http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-104

He shut his car off after they pulled up to his car.

Although the first part of the code does say "being operated on the highways in the Commonwealth" and he was in a parking lot before the police got there, so they can't be absolutely sure he was driving on "highways in the Commonwealth."
 
C

Citizen

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Well done on the car search refusal!

Of course, you've already figured out about letting them search your person.

I would like to add that next time, in addition to refusing the searches, politely

  • declare you do not consent to the encounter itself
  • declare that you want to leave
  • declare that youwill not answer questions without an attorney
  • ask if you are free to leave/are you being detained
  • ask what it is they suspect you of
By only refusing the searches, but continuing the conversation, you consented to spending time parrying their tactics.

There is more to know about handling police encounters. Its been discussed extensively on this forum. Do read up.

Also, did you have a voice-recorder?

I urge you to file a formal complaint for:

  • the badgering questions that attempted to get you to waive the 4A right you had already invoked against the search.
  • The temporary seizure of your gun.
You see, if they had to ask to search you or your car, its very likely they had no RAS. Theyhad already seized one gun. I can't imagine there are very many cops who would risk you having another under a seat oron you. But they can legally only seize the gun if they haveRAS to detain you. (See Terry vs Ohio) If they had RAS, its almost guaranteed they would have searched you and the carfor more weapons without asking. At the very least they would have ordered you out of the car to prevent your possible access to other guns. Its not totally guaranteed. But I think itlikely.

So, I recommendattackingfrom the premise that they had no RAS, thus seizing your gun was illegal.

Although I know of no case law that says the cop can't badger you endlessly into waiving a right you have already invoked,you do not lose standing as a freeAmerican to raise a ruckus over it. Its deplorable. And it shows a lack of respectfor rights. It becomes a matter ofwhether someone can be gotten to waive their rights, rather than whether a right exists.Pushy cop: "Oh, yes. He has the right; but only if he can continue to assert it in the face of steady badgering. Otherwise, he doesn't really have it."
 
Deanimator

Deanimator

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Citizen wrote:
Although I know of no case law that says the cop can't badger you endlessly into waiving a right you have already invoked,you do not lose standing as a freeAmerican to raise a ruckus over it. Its deplorable. And it shows a lack of respectfor rights. It becomes a matter ofwhether someone can be gotten to waive their rights, rather than whether a right exists.Pushy cop: "Oh, yes. He has the right; but only if he can continue to assert it in the face of steady badgering. Otherwise, he doesn't really have it."
Click to expand...
And that's where "Am I free to leave?" comes in. They can ask you as long as you consent to BEING there. If you're not there, they CAN'T ask you. If they won't LET you leave, it's a custodial situation and they need RAS or PC. After that, they're in a hole and digging themselves deeper. The law doesn't permit the police to hold you by threat of force merely to lecture you on their irrelevant opinions.
 
R

ratbike

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Thanks for all the replies. I am looking into the links posted and videos. I am glad I did something correctly. I wasnt even sure I could refuse the search at the time. Now I know for sure how to handle cop encounters. However, its still fuzzy on when a cop approaches you on foot. When you are both CC and OC. Can they take your gun from you? Provided you have not broken the law.

This happened a little over a year ago. I would assume its too late to do anyting about it? This particular police department is not known for actually caring about citizens. They are known for harrassment.
 
C

codename_47

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Here's my .02.


As stated, NEVER consent to anything. Never say anything other than to exercise your rights, and by anything, I mean nothing at all. No small talk, no how ya doings, no chit chat.


These people are trying to take your freedom and money, you need to treat this as a serious, non-friendly encounter.

I would not have rolled down both windows. Upon reaching in to get the gun, I would have called that a search, IMHO.

Alternatively, given the new supreme court ruling, Arizona v Gant, I have been kicking around a new theory on dealing with police and cars: Immideatly get out and lock the door. Why? Then they can't say that you are a potential threat and try to search the car.

Why? Well, in Gant, the cops searched his car after he was in the back of their car handcuffed. The Supremes ruled that there was no threat to their safety, since gant was restrained, hence no reason for the search. IMHO, you could have an arsenal in a locked car, but if you are standing outside of it, what can they say?

http://www.flexyourrights.org/gant_ruling

Although the first part of the code does say "being operated on the highways in the Commonwealth" and he was in a parking lot before the police got there, so they can't be absolutely sure he was driving on "highways in the Commonwealth."


I disagree. The method and mode of transport for how the car got there is immaterial. It could have been towed there. The only thing that matters is that at that time and place the car was NOT on a highway of the commonwealth. No driver's license should be shown, IMHO.

You don't have to show your ID unless you are in a Stop and identify state. There aren't that many in the US. IMHO, you didn't have to show him anything.

My threshold for asking is about two. After that, just stand there and look at them, or better yet ask if you are free to go.

I wasnt even sure I could refuse the search at the time.

If you remember nothing else, remember these two things: You Can ALWAYS refuse a search (if they have to ask, they don't have anything). You NEVER have to speak to them. (5th amendment, miranda, right to remain silent.)

Also, there is no per se exercising your right to remain silent. You don't have to declare it. Just stop talking and stare at your steering wheel.

My progress tree goes like this:

Am I being detained? Yes? go to step 2, No? Leave.

Do you suspect me of a crime? Yes? What crime? Why do you think I am involved, etc.. No? This sets up a conflict with the detainment. No crime = no right to detain. (Terry)

These last 2 are important and go hand in hand.

Am I free to go? Yes? Leave. No? Go to step 4, you are under arrest.

I want a lawyer, I do not wish to be interrogated.That's it. Your talking is complete. Don't say anything else, period. Not one word. Wait for a lawyer.
 
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Treo

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It’s pretty much been said but word games with the police get you nowhere.

Officer are you detaining me or am I free to leave (If they say you’re free to leave do it)

If they say you’re being detained ask to speak to a lawyer and do not say another word

If they ask to search politely decline and ask to speak to a lawyer then do not say another word

I addition to the two videos I want to recommend You And The Police by Boston T. Party
 
Gunslinger

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A pistol clearly visible in your vehicle in VA is 100% legal. They unlawfully took the gun from you. This is under no consideration a "Terry" stop. They had no legal right to search you or the car, neither RAS for the Terry or PC for anything. You were good with the no search of the car; should not have consented to your being searched. You should have asked why you were being detained immediately. If they said you weren't, then say good evening and leave. If you were, why? And that is it. No search. The window on the passenger side should have been closed and the door locked. If your tint is illegal, that's your separate problem and not of issue here. However, the cop had no legal right to reach in your car as your pistol was in plain view. Reaching in a window is not different from unlocking the door and reaching in. Both are unlawful under the 4th A, absent RAS or PC.
 
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