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Thread: Arrested in Detroit for Open Carrying:

  1. #1
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    Just got back from Detroit. Before I tell the story, let me begin by saying that I almost always OC... today was certainly no exception. I live in Troy... I spend most of my time in Troy. Today, I had lunch at Chipotle Grill in Troy... there was a uniformed officer standing behind me at the drink counter. He looked down and saw my sidearm, but did not say anything to me. It was nice.

    Now in Detroit, I cannot say the same. I arrived in Detroit (Greektown area) at approximately 4:45 pm. My buddy parked his vehicle and we got out and walked to the corner of Clinton and Beaubian streets; arriving at approximately 5:00 pm. As we walked by all the police buildings that are located there, approximately 6 to 8 men dressed in full suits were standing outside the main entrance of one of them. They all turned their heads and watched me as I walked by... but nobody attempted to stop me or speak to me. I walked to the corner and met up with a member here who was reading a newspaper. We chit-chatted for several minutes when an unmarked police cruiser approached. As the cruiser hit the intersection, it suddenly stopped and a plain clothes officer stuck his out of the driver window and said, "Please tell me you're law enforecement." I responded, "No sir."

    Here is what happened:


    Office of Chief Investigator
    2111 Woodward Avenue
    Suite 800
    Detroit, MI. 48201

    Re: Complaint and FOIA Request

    To Whom It Concerns,

    I have a complaint against the Detroit Police Department and am filing a FOIA request about an incident that happened during the early evening of Monday, May 4th, 2009 between the hours of 5:00 pm and 6:00 pm EST on the corner of Clinton and Beaubien; just outside the Detroit Police Department headquarters.

    Known Officers Involved:

    * Officer Martin, Badge Number XXXX
    * Lieutenant Jackman, Badge Number XXX

    Description of Incident:

    On the day of May 4th 2009, at approximately 5:00 pm, I was standing on the West corner of Clinton and Beaubien Streets (Detroit) with two acquaintances. I was openly carrying a pistol, visible on my hip, in accordance with Michigan law. In that I had walked by the police and county buildings located on that street, I passed several officers without incident. However, an unmarked police cruiser (with three plain-clothes officers inside) approached and stopped in the middle of the intersection. The driver, Officer Martin poked his head out of the driver window and stated, “Please tell me you’re law enforcement.” I turned in the direction of the officer and said, “No sir.” He then told me to put my hands on my head as he pulled the vehicle up closer to the curb (still blocking the intersection). I complied. He the exited the vehicle, told me to turn around, forced my arms behind my back, and put handcuffs on me.

    Immediately, he began to barrage me with a stream of obscenities. I asked him what I was being arrested or detained for, and he said, “You’re not law enforcement”. I asked him if I was breaking some law or statute by walking down the street as a citizen. He didn’t respond. As he turned me around and pushed me towards the police vehicle, he placed his hand in my back pocket. At that moment, I said (loud enough for at least two witnesses to hear, but without having to yell), “I do not consent to any searches, officer.” He disregarded my statement and pulled my wallet out of my pocket. He also removed my firearm from my holster. I told him, once again, that I was not consenting to any searches and he told me to shut up. I asked if I was being arrested, and he said, “You’re being detained.” I asked him why I was being detained and he said, “You got a gun and you’re not law enforcement. Boy you must be stupid.” I said, “You should call a supervisor.” In a mocking manner, he reiterated my quote and told me, again, to shut up. Immediately after, he placed me into the back seat of his vehicle and shut the door. During this entire process, he continued with unprofessional language; making menacing, derogatory, and threatening comments towards me. At one point, he warned me that I took too long to put my hands on my head (which witnesses will bear testimony to the contrary) and that if I wanted to “play”, that “bad things” were going to happen to me. I was also warned that I didn’t know who he was and that he could make things hard for me. He said more, but this is a simple indication of the type of demeanor he was displaying. Not once, ever, did I fail to cooperate, raise my voice to him, say anything derogatory, say anything menacing, or say anything threatening.

    Numerous times, I posed the question of why I was being detained and he failed to respond. Almost immediately after I was taken into custody, Lieutenant Jackman arrived on the scene in a separate vehicle. Almost simultaneously, a small crowd of miscellaneous law enforcement personnel converged on the scene (including State, County, and Local). By this point, Officer Martin was sitting in the driver seat of the police vehicle cussing at me some more and making, what I took, as threats against my safety. I even said to him several times, “Stop threatening me.” In one hand, he held my wallet and in his other hand, he held my driver’s license and CPL. I asked Officer Martin to let me speak with the Lt. (Lt. Jackman). After several requests, he finally called him over to the vehicle I was handcuffed in. When Lt. Jackman approached the vehicle, Officer Martin said in a mocking manner, “This guy wants to know why he’s being detained.” Lt. Jackman peered in through my window. The window was open a tad, and he said to me through the open crack, “Do you have a CCW?” I responded to the Lt. by saying, “No sir, I don’t have any felonies. Why am I being detained?” He scoffed at me and walked away. Moments later, another plain-clothes officer (who’s name and badge number I don’t have, but he was riding with Officer Martin when I was stopped) entered the police vehicle I was in from the front passenger door. In his hands, he had the ID’s of the two people I was with. Moments prior, I had witnessed Officer Martin patting down at least one of my witnesses; although Officer Martin never patted me down during the entire interlude. He did, however, forcefully remove my wallet and firearm from my body. Had Officer Martin actually patted me down, he may have noticed I was carrying a digital audio recorder.

    As this unknown officer was documenting information from my witnesses’ ID’s, he asked me if I had a CCW. I responded the same as I did with the Lt. by explaining that I didn’t have any felonies. He then asked if I had a CCW permit. I said, “There’s no such thing as a CCW permit. If you’re referring to a CPL, then yes, I have one. Since you guys have my wallet and my ID’s, you know that already.” I asked him if he could explain why I was being detained, since nobody else had yet. Rather than respond, he attempted to procure more information from me, at which point I told him that I was done talking. He exited the vehicle shortly thereafter.

    Two State Police Troopers were standing outside my window and I could see Officer Martin showing them my pistol. As if I were some sort of caged animal on display in a zoo, they each peered into my window. In that they were State Troopers, I beseeched them to find out why I was being detained. One of them asked if I had a CCW. Pursuant to the previous two times I was asked, I said, “No sir, I have never been convicted of any felonies. I want to know why I’m being detained though.” The Trooper scoffed at me and walked away.

    Several moments later, Officer Martin returned to the vehicle and continued with another barrage of derogatory insults and threats. As he held my ID’s in his hand, he said, “(My Name) from Troy, huh? Boy I got you… you don’t know what’s gonna happen to you.” I asked the officer if that were another threat and if I should expect a visit from him at my home. He said, “I don’t need to go to your home… I got you here.” I asked why he had me, and he responded with things like, “You’re stupid” and “You must be crazy.” Then he said, "You don’t come to my city carrying a gun”. Since he made a strong inflection of the word “my” when referring to the City of Detroit, I asked him how he came to “own” the city. He said that he works and pays taxes there. I asked him how he knows that I didn’t as well. He said, “I don’t.” So then I asked him, again, why he stopped me and whether or not he considered the fact that maybe I had business in the city. His response was, “You’re suspicious.” I asked him what made me suspicious and he went quiet. I repeated the question and he began with yet another barrage of insults and threats. The only time I interrupted him during this entire encounter was at this point, when I told him to stop cussing at me and threatening me and to answer the question. He then started yelling at me and saying, “I’m gonna tell you but you wanna interrupt me when I’m trying to talk!” Even though he wasn’t telling me anything useful, I still said, “Fine officer… I’ll listen. Why do you think I’m suspicious?” Rather than answer the question, he continued lecturing me on not interrupting a police officer when he’s speaking. After he was done with his lecture I said, “I don’t want to be lectured… I just want answers. Why am I being detained?” He repeated, “You’re suspicious.” I asked him again what made me suspicious and he wouldn’t answer. So I asked him if he thought I was suspicious because I’m Irish... or because I’m Polish… or because I’m a man… or because I’m white… or because I’m a citizen. I asked him if I were wearing a turban on my head if he would suspect me of being a terrorist. Officer Martin laughed and said, “Yeah… it’s cuz you’re white. It don’t matter… I got you now. I got my felony arrest for the day.”

    At the insinuation that I was now under arrest and being charged with a felony, I asked him what law I broke. Around this time, he turned the police dash cam towards me and I asked Officer Martin how he intended to explain to a Judge on what grounds he had arrested me. I also told him that I intended to procure the video from his dash camera as evidence. He exited the vehicle without responding, but left the driver door open. Seeing a small congregation of law enforcement outside the vehicle, I hoped to get the attention of at least one of them to aid in my release. I said, loud enough for the parties outside of the vehicle to hear (with the driver door open), “If I’m not being charged with a crime, then I wish to be released. I want to leave.” Nobody responded.

    Several moments later, Officer Martin returned to the vehicle. I asked him why I was under arrest and what law I had broken. He didn’t respond. So I said, “Listen… you either charge me with a crime or you let me go. You haven’t given me any lawful reason whatsoever for detaining or arresting me.” He said, “I’m going to hold you for exactly 15 minutes… I’m allowed to do that. You want to play? I’ll play.” I reminded Officer Martin that I had been held past 15 minutes already.

    Almost immediately after, Lt. Jackman said, “Cut him loose… give him back his ****.” Officer Martin exited the front of the vehicle and opened my door in the back. He forcefully told me to get out the car. I complied. He turned me around and removed the handcuffs. I told Officer Martin that I wanted the immediate return of my wallet, all of my identification, and my firearm. He told me to “Watch who (I) was talking to.” Knowing that I had been ordered to be released and that this illegal detainment was now over, I said to him, “I want the return of my belongings right now.” I did not raise my voice one bit. At my demand, Officer Martin said, “Don’t threaten me. You aint gonna do nothing to my job. I’m gonna have a great day after this.” I didn’t bother responding; nor seeking clarification on how he construed my demand for the return of my property as a threat. He told me to go stand on the corner, so I complied by walking towards the curb (the police cruiser was still parked in the middle of the intersection).

    As I began to make my way towards the curb, Lt. Jackman (who was on a red cell phone) said, “Hold up… grab him. Grab him”, as he motioned towards me. Officer Martin yanked my arm and pulled me towards his car. He loudly ordered me to get my hands on the car. I complied. While Lt. Jackman continued talking on his cell phone (out of earshot from me), Officer Martin continued with disparaging and profane remarks. He said, “You’s a bitch, you know that?” For the first few remarks, I said nothing. I stared straight ahead with my hands on the rear of his cruiser. But after he called me a “bitch” for the third time, I said, “I hope you can prove that I’m a bitch in a court of law… because otherwise you’re just trying to intimidate me and it’s not working.” He stepped in closer to me and stared at me. He said to me, quietly in my ear, “Yeah that’s why you were shaking like a bitch when I put you in cuffs, huh? I know what a bitch looks like and you’re it.” I told the officer that he could stare at me all he wanted, but that I wasn’t intimidated. I also told him that the reason I was shaking during the arrest was because my adrenaline was rushing and that it was a body’s natural reaction. I stared straight ahead, with my hands still on the rear of his cruiser, as I said this. He said, “Yeah whatever, bitch.” He then stepped back a few steps and started cussing at me louder… loud enough for my witnesses to hear. I turned to him and said, “Listen man, stop cussing at me alright? You proved your point… you know a lot of bad words. Just stop cussing at me.” He ignored me and continued calling me derogatory names and making menacing comments. The last thing I said to him at this point was, “Whatever. Here’s what’s going to happen… you’re going to release me. You’re going to give me back my property. And I’m going to walk away a free man without any charges. I’ve got nothing else to say to you, officer.” He said, “We’ll see”, and then he walked in the direction of Lt. Jackman. At this point, Lt. Jackman said again, “Cut him loose and give him back his ****.” I waited for Officer Martin to affirm the order before I took my hands off of his vehicle. At that point, I said, “I want names and badge numbers… starting with you”, and I nodded in the direction of Officer Martin. Defiantly, he rattled off his name and badge number as I entered the information into my phone. I sought Lt. Jackman’s next.

    Another officer offered his, but frankly, I had no qualms with him and I was busy trying to enter the other two officer’s information into my phone. Besides, as I was trying to hurriedly put this information into my phone, Officer Martin tossed my wallet, my driver’s license, and my CPL onto his trunk and then started to open the trunk lid. He said, “If you don’t get your stuff off I’m gonna open the trunk and knock it off.” I quickly shoved my phone into my pocket and went to reach for my stuff on the trunk lid. It wasn’t even a full second later when he said, “Alright I guess you don’t care” and he opened the trunk; thus causing my wallet and identification to slide off. I managed to catch them, however, before they fell to the ground. From the trunk, he retrieved my pistol and pistol magazine. He slid them across the trunk lid towards me. I immediately inspected my magazine to be sure that all the ammunition was accounted for. There was one bullet missing and I looked up in his direction. Before I could say anything, he slammed the missing bullet down on the trunk lid. I placed the bullet back into the magazine, replaced the magazine in my pistol, and replaced the pistol in my holster. I turned to head back towards the corner from which I was detained/arrested. Officer Martin walked extremely close to me as I made my way; my suspicion was that he wanted me to bump into him. Very politely, I said to him, “Have a good day, Officer Martin”. He retorted with, “I’m gonna have a great day. You aint gonna hurt my job none.” Once again, I did not pursue the issue of why he thought I was referring to anything regarding trying to cost him his job. Not once EVER during our interlude did I insinuate this. The closest thing I came to this was when I asked how he planned to explain to a Judge why I was being arrested and when I told him that I fully intended to procure the dash camera video from his cruiser. He immediately walked away from the scene, though he left his vehicle parked in the intersection. He would return several minutes later to retrieve and park it about a half block down the street.

    As a free man, and still wanting answers, I asked Lt. Jackman if I could ask him some questions. He turned in my direction and just looked at me. I took this as an omission that it was safe for me to proceed. I asked, “Can you explain to me, once and for all, why I was just detained?” He said, “You know exactly why.” I said, “Actually, I don’t… because I didn’t break a single law or do anything that could legally be deemed suspicious. So please just tell me.” He said, “I know why you’re here. I know all about it.” I said, “You may think that, but you don’t know for certain. Can you just answer my question?” He motioned towards my gun and said, “That’s why.” I said, “Are you aware that openly carrying a firearm is legal in Michigan, as well as most of the country?” He said something to the effect (it was hard to hear because he was mumbling) that even though it’s legal, most officers don’t care for it and are going to stop me for suspicions about things. I responded with, “That’s not true… I was just having lunch today in Troy while openly carrying and a Troy officer standing behind me didn’t say one word to me about it.” He said, “Well that’s Troy… this is Detroit.” And I said, “Well this is Michigan, and no city in Michigan can preempt State gun laws.” At this, he simply waived his hands at me and walked away.

    Shortly after, several acquaintances approached from multiple corners with video and sound recording devices. Unbeknown to me, they were in the area when this incident occurred. Also unbeknown to me, hours before I arrived in Detroit, one of these acquaintances communicated to Lt. Jackman that I would be in that area at that precise time. In this communication to Lt. Jackman, he informed him that I would be lawfully engaging in a peaceful activity and included information regarding State laws, statutes, and court cases (including the Michigan Supreme Court) that what I was doing would be legal. It is, therefore, my sincere belief that Lt. Jackman had all of the information provided to him ahead of time that would indicate that nothing about this detainment/arrest was legal. The Supreme Court has ruled, quite clearly, that stopping someone carrying a holstered gun in the open is NOT cause to detain nor arrest. And yet, after much adieu and harassment, it was confirmed by both Officer Martin and Lt. Jackman that this is, indeed, the reason for my detainment/arrest.

    Despite the length of the account of events, my complaint is inherently simple: Under the color of law, a deputized thug illegally detained me without being able to articulate any suspected crime whatsoever. He then engaged in an illegal search and seizure when he took my wallet and firearm from me; subsequently removing effects from my wallet and running the serial number of my firearm. This came after I clearly stated, twice, that I did not consent to any searches. In addition to these egregious violations, his barrage of insults and menacing threats about all the things he would do to me could, if he were an ordinary citizen, be construed as felonious assault. All of this occurred while city, county, and State police looked on. Even with a Detroit PD Lieutenant on the scene, it continued. It took at least 10 minutes with me sitting in the back of Officer Martin’s squad car while wearing handcuffs before he finally told me that I was being detained because I looked “suspicious”. The only way he quantified his suspicions of me was to say that I wasn’t “law enforcement”. The only thing he said to me before ordering my hands above my head and handcuffing me was, “Please tell me that you’re law enforcement.” About halfway through my detainment for “suspicion of not being law enforcement”, I was then told I had been arrested for a felony. Then I was suddenly ordered to be released, but then ordered to be re-detained.


    After my release, Lt. Jackman indicated that my reason for being detained was because I was openly carrying a firearm secured in a holster. He indicated that it was okay in some cities like Troy, but not in others like Detroit. This is clearly in violation of Michigan preemption laws; besides the fact that detaining someone for openly carrying a firearm without being able to articulate suspicion of a crime is illegal. The Michigan Supreme Court has ruled on cases like these. Furthermore, there is documentary evidence that Lt. Jackman was made aware of this information several hours prior to the incident. Despite this, he chose to ignore it and allow the violation of my civil liberties to continue.

    For approximately 20 to 25 minutes I was held against my will in violation of State laws. But this issue is far more precious than time; it shoots directly through the heart of something much more important: An American citizen’s Constitutional freedoms. In the United States of America, a citizen has the right to move freely without fear of being harassed, detained, or searched by law enforcement without cause. These officers completely negated these concepts.

    I fully intend to pursue this issue until I am satisfied that justice has been adequately served. Because I was told numerous times by Officer Martin that nothing would happen if I filed a complaint, please pardon me for sending copies of this letter to multiple offices to ensure that my complaints and FOIA request are properly addressed. I have not yet sent copies to the US Department of Justice, the local FBI, or television/print media; but they will absolutely remain viable options should my voice fall on uncaring ears.

    Freedom of Information Act Request:

    I want any and all relevant documentation, in any media format, that was taken by your officers before, after, or during this incident. This includes, but is not limited to:

    · Audio recordings of any dispatch or telephone calls made
    · Any electronic communications, text messages, or emails sent; including those made from personal media devices that may have been used to exchange information regarding this incident
    · Any video recordings made by any law enforcement vehicle dash camera
    · Any audio recordings that may have been recorded
    · Any written reports, including field notes
    · Any information that was entered into the LEIN system about me
    · The full names, ranks, and badge numbers of all the officers who were involved in any way
    · Any other relevant notation on any medium which was recorded in any way
    · Video recordings from the surveillance cameras on the Wayne County building that face the intersection of Clinton and Beaubien, specifically the West corner, between the hours of 5:00 pm and 6:00 pm on the day in question.
    · Internal communications and/or memo’s pertaining to the incident

    This information can either be mailed to me or I can pick it up in person. If there are problems obtaining information pursuant to my request, please advise me promptly. I thank you in advance for your prompt attention and cooperation.



    Sincerely,



    (Name)
    (Address)
    (Phone Number)



    CC:
    Detroit Board of Police Commissioners
    Detroit Chief of Police James R. Barren, Ph.D.
    Detroit Mayor David Bing
    Wayne County Prosecutor Kym L. Worthy
    Wayne County Sheriff Warren C. Evans
    Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox
    Michigan State Police
    American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan

    This was my first ever run-in with an LEO regarding open carry. It was interesting, to say the least. It should also be noted that there was a homeless gentleman lying on the sidewalk about 20 feet from me when the officer stopped me. He had an open intoxicant lying next to him. As the ruckus began to unfold, he woke up and walked away; returning to the scene as officers dispersed. Nobody stopped to talk to him about ANYTHING. It should also be noted that the harassing officer never patted me down for weapons. I could've had a recorder in my pocket... or perhaps a concealed pistol. He would know had he bothered to check before putting cuffs on me and placing me in the back of his cruiser. ;-)

  2. #2
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    SQLtables wrote:
    Wow.. very bad.... and very infuriating...

    Overall, I think you did alright with the encounter. You talked a lot more than I would have, but you did alright. Sorry you had to go through that, I hope you get it all straightened out. I'm sure the members here will be willing to help out if you need it.

    As far as a FOIA, they don't need to be very specific, maybe say something like "any and all information related to the incident at... on... , including but not limited to all dispatch records, video recordings, radio traffic, reports, etc..." Something like that. You just need to give enough information to identify the incident you're talking about, and the type of information you are requesting.

    Good luck!

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    Veritas wrote:
    SQLtables wrote:
    Wow.. very bad.... and very infuriating...

    Overall, I think you did alright with the encounter. You talked a lot more than I would have, but you did alright. Sorry you had to go through that, I hope you get it all straightened out. I'm sure the members here will be willing to help out if you need it.

    As far as a FOIA, they don't need to be very specific, maybe say something like "any and all information related to the incident at... on... , including but not limited to all dispatch records, video recordings, radio traffic, reports, etc..." Something like that. You just need to give enough information to identify the incident you're talking about, and the type of information you are requesting.

    Good luck!
    Thanks.

    I talked more than I usually do, I'll admit. However, the entire stop lasted anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes and MOST of what came out of my mouth was, "Why am I being detained?", "Why am I being arrested?", and "I wish to be released." The little stuff in the middle was more or less fodder. I didn't relinquish any data that I was not required to, other than the comment about the CPL and that was only because they had already obtained my CPL from my wallet.

    I'm going to work on a rough draft for the FOIA and post it up when I'm done for feedback.

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    SQLtables wrote:
    Do you have a lawyer in mind?

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    Michigander wrote:
    I may be wrong, but I believe that the DPD was sent an info package a while back. If so, they have no excuses here. Those officers are for sure out of line. Not much to be said about them that isn't self evident. Additionally, it is frustrating that the MSP has for sure educated its officers, yet the troopers on the scene did nothing to intervene.

    I wasn't there, so I'm not sure, but going by my understanding of your description, rather than simply fill out a FOIA, you may wish to call a lawyer instead.

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    lechwe wrote:
    I think you did an outstanding job. I'm envious you had the composure to deal with it like you did. I just turned in my app for my CPL on Friday and was nervous just doing that and getting printed.

    I would love to be in the room when your new friends get educated on how to not get the city sued.

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    Veritas wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    I may be wrong, but I believe that the DPD was sent an info package a while back. If so, they have no excuses here. Those officers are for sure out of line. Not much to be said about them that isn't self evident. Additionally, it is frustrating that the MSP has for sure educated its officers, yet the troopers on the scene did nothing to intervene.

    I wasn't there, so I'm not sure, but going by my understanding of your description, rather than simply fill out a FOIA, you may wish to call a lawyer instead.
    I know that at least one member here gave DPD a heads up before I arrived. Not only did he tell them I would be there, but he also sent them information pertaining to the legality of what I was doing. This information was apparently not disseminated properly.

    As for the MSP, I too am disappointed. I left that part out of the story, but after the harrassing officer showed my pistol to the State Police officers, one of them approached the vehicle I was handcuffed in and asked me if I had a CCW. I told him that I didn't have any felonies and that nobody had given me any reason for detaining me and that I wished to be released. He scoffed at me and walked away.

    By the time I was released from DPD custody, the State Police were no longer on the scene. My suspicion is that even though I sought their help in rectifying things, they wanted nothing to do with the incident.

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    Veritas wrote:
    Here is what I drew up for my FOIA request:


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    SQLtables wrote:
    That should probably work. I honestly don't know how that works FOIAing things from the MSP and another building through the city...

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    lechwe wrote:
    I think you did an outstanding job. I'm envious you had the composure to deal with it like you did. I just turned in my app for my CPL on Friday and was nervous just doing that and getting printed.

    I would love to be in the room when your new friends get educated on how to not get the city sued.
    Thank you kindly.

    I just want to point, again, that I didn't do this to cause a ruckus. I know that may seem counter-intuitive to some people, but I legitimately wanted to exercise a right that many people are unaware they have. I truly was NOT expecting any LEO encounters, despite the "warning" I was given socially last Thursday evening. I truly had the best hopes that any LEO who spotted me would respect my sovereign rights and, at the MOST, attempt to procure information from me without putting me through the rigors of an arrest, search, and harassing threats.

    I am disappointed by the DPD and the MSP officers for the way they conducted themselves. However, the objective I set out to accomplish has been met: A handful of officers have become aware that open carry IS legal and that they cannot arrest an innocent citizen for exercising a Constitutional right. That was truly the point of the exercise.

    I can see now, however, that there are still some ill-informed thugs that carry badges. It is disappointing.

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    SQLtables wrote:
    That should probably work. I honestly don't know how that works FOIAing things from the MSP and another building through the city...
    I can handle the MSP FOIA. I have experience there.

    But the County building and DPD... not so much.

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    Michigander wrote:
    Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.

    In my opinion, merely whining about that type of treatment from a department with the reputation of the DPD will probably not get you very far. I of course hope I am wrong, and I hope that they will make this situation right.

    But in any case, please think very carefully before you act on this.


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    dougwg wrote:
    You also want any and all field notes from all officers involved.

  14. #14
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    SQLtables wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.

    In my opinion, merely whining about that type of treatment from a department with the reputation of the DPD will probably not get you very far. I of course hope I am wrong, and I hope that they will make this situation right.

    But in any case, please think very carefully before you act on this.

    I agree with this part, you said that you were willing to prove your point in court correct? You have that chance.

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    Thanks for moving the topic. Good move.

    Like I just said in the experience thread. You said you were willing to prove your point in court. You have that chance.

  16. #16
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    Veritas wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    You also want any and all field notes from all officers involved.
    Great idea... I will add that. Thanks!

  17. #17
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
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    kudos for handling it well...

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

    Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.

  18. #18
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    tygereye wrote:
    kudos for handling it well...**

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment?* If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there...* it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..."* again, just a random thought...*

    Good luck with the proceedings from here...* Wish I could have been there.
    It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...

  19. #19
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    SQLtables wrote:
    Thanks for moving the topic. Good move.

    Like I just said in the experience thread. You said you were willing to prove your point in court. You have that chance.
    Understood. What started off as a one-point idea has morphed into a multi-thronged fork.

    One throng was to demonstrate to an officer (or in this case, an entire group) that what I was doing was just and legal and to respect my civil liberties. With some slight malfunctions in the process, the mission was inevitably accomplished.

    Another throng is to make the issue bigger so that MORE officers become aware. This is the purpose for compiling data. It may involve court... if it does, I will be prepared to pursue it.


  20. #20
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
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    SQLtables wrote:
    tygereye wrote:
    kudos for handling it well...

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

    Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.
    It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...
    The paperwork I was referring to, was the information packet that we give to LEO's...

  21. #21
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    tygereye wrote:
    SQLtables wrote:
    tygereye wrote:
    kudos for handling it well...**

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment?* If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there...* it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..."* again, just a random thought...*

    Good luck with the proceedings from here...* Wish I could have been there.
    It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...
    The paperwork I was referring to, was the information packet that we give to LEO's...*
    Ah, ok, sorry... I thought you were referring to a warrant or something to that effect.

  22. #22
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    tygereye wrote:
    kudos for handling it well...

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

    Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.
    Thank you.

    First things first: The gentleman from last Thursday could've just been some random dude who was CLAIMING to be an off duty officer. I didn't check credentials lol.

    But let's assume he was honest... and let's assume that it was also a setup... it doesn't change any facts. What happened, happened.

    I really don't think it was a setup, though. I walked by several LEO's unnoticed and without incident. At least one marked squad car drove by without incident. The unmarked vehicle that was approaching, in my opinion, was headed towards the building or otherwise not coming for me, specifically. It is my belief that the drive saw my sidearm and made a judgment call to throw his car in park and harass me.

  23. #23
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
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    SQLtables wrote:
    tygereye wrote:
    SQLtables wrote:
    tygereye wrote:
    kudos for handling it well...

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

    Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.
    It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...
    The paperwork I was referring to, was the information packet that we give to LEO's...
    Ah, ok, sorry... I thought you were referring to a warrant or something to that effect.
    Nope, but it's ok... if they had received that packet, then they should have ultimately known, that any and all persons carrying, (anywhere in that city) should be left alone... to me, with that, and the results, equals a possibility of harrassment..

  24. #24
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    SQLtables wrote:
    tygereye wrote:
    kudos for handling it well...

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

    Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.
    It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...
    In my humble opinion, Officer Martin went far beyond the call of duty to establish his "toughness". Little things like reading my address back to me (in the car) and telling me he knows me... telling me repeatedly that "bad things" were going to happen to me... calling me names... I believe all of these were attempts to scare me and to bolster his own ego.

    Towards the end of the incident however, he started getting desperate when he knew he had to let me go. That's when he started saying things like, "Yeah you were shaking like a bitch when I stopped you weren't you?" Even then, and I'm sure he knows this, but adrenaline causes one to shake. My voice never cracked and my composure never waned. I reminded him of that.

  25. #25
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
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    Veritas wrote:
    tygereye wrote:
    kudos for handling it well...

    Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

    Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.
    Thank you.

    First things first: The gentleman from last Thursday could've just been some random dude who was CLAIMING to be an off duty officer. I didn't check credentials lol.

    But let's assume he was honest... and let's assume that it was also a setup... it doesn't change any facts. What happened, happened.

    I really don't think it was a setup, though. I walked by several LEO's unnoticed and without incident. At least one marked squad car drove by without incident. The unmarked vehicle that was approaching, in my opinion, was headed towards the building or otherwise not coming for me, specifically. It is my belief that the drive saw my sidearm and made a judgment call to throw his car in park and harass me.
    Gotcha... you posted moments before me... either way, i agree, what happened happened, and now they will get a bit of education. I hope it goes well for you Veritas.

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