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CHP question

AJG

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Wolf_shadow wrote:
There isno requirement for range time to get a CHP in VA. Although I personally believe everyone who has a CHP should have shooting experience and practice regularly.
Wolf........ your quite correct if you took a NRA Basic Pistol or First Steps Course. Also no self respecting instructor would ever sign his/her name to a certificate without ensuring their student could in fact show proficiency with their/any firearm.
 

AJG

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Argus Eyed wrote:
No range time? Maybe it's different now. When I got my CHP about 5 or 6 years ago. I had to shoot (If I remember correctly) 25 rounds at the end of the course. I do agree thatCHP holders need to have regular practice at the range.
oppssss ment this to go to Argus not Wolf..

Argus.........your quite correct if you took a NRA Basic Pistol or First Steps Course. Also no self respecting instructor would ever sign his/her name to a certificate without ensuring their student could in fact show proficiency with their/any firearm.
 

TexasNative

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Even before the passage of this law, there was no requirement to demonstrate proficiency with a firearm. A hunter safety course, where no firearm is touched or even present, and firearms are barely discussed, is sufficient to satisfy current law.

If we want to get into a discussion about requiring training to be able to carry a gun, that's a whole 'nuther subject. But judges were abusing the existing law by not allowing an online course, taught by an NRA certified instructor, to serve as the training requirement for a CHP. This just closed the "loophole" that anti-gun rights judges were trying to use to circumvent the will of the Virginia legislators.
 

TexasNative

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AJG wrote:
I cant wait to read in the paper the first time one of these "Concealed Handgun Permit Firearms Safety Class" graduates from The Concealed Carry Instituteshow up in court for a firearm related incident and blame the state cause they didnt need to show proficiency.
That's where you're going awry, Alex. These are not "Concealed Handgun Permit Firearms Safety Classes," they're whatever classes they are. The classes are not designed or intended to teach you how to conceal carry (other than possibly the Personal Protection Outside the Home course, but even that's not necessarily for concealed carry).

Here are the training requirements for a Virginia CHP:
  1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;
  2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
  3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;
  4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
  5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;
  6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
  7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;
  8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or
  9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.
Do you see the words "range" or "proficiency" in there anywhere?

It's the law, judges were abusing the law, so the legislature clarified the law to specifically allow online courses. If you want to debate having to prove to the Commonwealth that you can safely handle a gun before you get a permit, that's a different discussion entirely, and many folks here will gladly eat your lunch over that argument.
 

ed

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AJG wrote:
Wow.... $39.99 to take th online course (in approximately 1 hour) without firing a shot, or pay approximately $50 and take a course from a NRA certified instructor that includes a bit of range time. Hmmmm which to pick? I really can't believe that the state approved a course that doesnt even have any requirement for the student to "show proficiency" instead they have a here ya go attitude. I cant wait to read in the paper the first time one of these "Concealed Handgun Permit Firearms Safety Class" graduates from The Concealed Carry Instituteshow up in court for a firearm related incident and blame the state cause they didnt need to show proficiency. ugggggggggggggg

Alex G

NRA Certified Pistol Instructor/Range Safety Officer

Now I see your beef about it all. You are worried about it taking food out of your mouth. You should promote it and help put food IN your mouth. Send all your former students an e-mail that says go to www.VirginiaCHPtraining.com and that youwill take them on live fire training after they get the basics down..

I too am an NRA CertifiedInstructor and RSOas well as a USMC Rifle and Pistol "expert" Ohh Rahh and Semper Fi..

but I think that the onlien course is great.And.. it has nothing to do with if it is a good course or not.. it has to do with the course beaing LEGAL and the courts not following the LAW like Texas Native said.


Ed
 

AJG

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TW, yep I'm well aware of the Virginia requirements to apply for a CHP, thanks for posting them for everyone. And your absolutely correct, proficiency and range are not listed in them anywhere.

Ed, your wrong, it's no food out of my mouth. I don't butter my bread from any classes Ive ever taught, that accusation is unfounded. Don't attack what you assume my motivations are, if you must attack, attack what you know as truth.

I didnt want to get into a arguement over the topic, I just wanted to voice my opinion that I thought getting a permit online without any range time is a bad idea. I accept others opinions that they think its a great/good idea and welcome any avenue that will legally accomplish the mission.



I'm done.
 

ed

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TexasNative wrote:
Even before the passage of this law, there was no requirement to demonstrate proficiency with a firearm. A hunter safety course, where no firearm is touched or even present, and firearms are barely discussed, is sufficient to satisfy current law
+1

and www.virginiaCHPtraining.com does MUCH more than the hunter safety training.
 

Grapeshot

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Neither the 2nd Amendment nor Virginia statute law require proficiency - demonstrated ability.

Prudence does. Encourage everybody to know the laws and train well.

IMHO - instructors would be well advised to limit their negative/critical personal comments and promote/encourage good practices = knowledge, safety, continued training and improved proficiency.

Yata hey
 

AJG

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ed wrote:
Ok.. so you think that owning a firearm (if you only want to OC) should have forced range time?

Owning and carrying are 2 different issues.

In referenced to the 2nd Ammendment.... The current legal meaning of the Second Amendment was addressed in by the Supreme CourtDistrict of Columbia v. Heller. In Heller, the Supreme Court determined that the Second Amendment protects an individual right, with the majority opinion stating that: The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

Is it legal to own a revolver/pistol and OC in Virginia without 1 second of training or proficiency demo? Yes...

Is it legal in Virginia to CC with specified approved training not including any proficiency demo? Yes...

AWESOME..... I'm glad that we have that right!

Its been stated on here before "While I agree someone with no shooting experience needs to have range time training, an experienced shooter should be able to take the class without range time." Who determines your amount of experience? Do we let the goverment do it? NO........ but I do believe it lies within theresponsibility of the individual to get proficiency before they strap on a sidearm. Just because I sit in front of the TV every weekend and watch the NASCAR boys drive circles at 200 miles an hour doesnt mean that if I go out, spend a million dollars on one of their cars that I can do it too. It takes practice and training to get there. Same as carrying a sidearm, whether its OC or CC, it takes some training and practice to know the laws and become comfortable with doing it.

So after all that, my answer to your question is 2 fold....
Ok.. so you think that owning a firearm (if you only want to OC) should have forced range time?
Do I think that owning a firearm requires range time? NO Do I think that OCing requires range time? YES
 

Grapeshot

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AJG wrote:
snip........
Do I think that owning a firearm requires range time? NO Do I think that OCing requires range time? YES
The right to defend against murder, rape and the like must never be determined by "range time." That right should exist where ever you have a right to be and however you chose to carry.

How many hours of range time will be determined to be adequate 1, 2, 10 or 100? Does proficiency equate to score? Is passing 60% or 98%? Indeed, this is a slippery slope.

I would agree if "required" were changed to "recommended" in your thought.

Yata hey
 

AJG

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AGREED



Grapeshot wrote:
AJG wrote:
snip........
Do I think that owning a firearm requires range time? NO Do I think that OCing requires range time? YES
The right to defend against murder, rape and the like must never be determined by "range time." That right should exist where ever you have a right to be and however you chose to carry.

How many hours of range time will be determined to be adequate 1, 2, 10 or 100? Does proficiency equate to score? Is passing 60% or 98%? Indeed, this is a slippery slope.

I would agree if "required" were changed to "recommended" in your thought.

Yata hey
 

TexasNative

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I think we're all mostly saying the same thing, albeit using different words, or maybe assigning different meanings to the same words.

Look, can't we all agree that at its core, the government has no business determining who can own/carry/conceal a firearm (at least beyond a few prohibitions, such as violent felons (who should probably still be in prison anyway) and the mentally disturbed)?

And also, can't we all agree that personal responsibility dictates that we should be proficient with our firearms, so that at the very least we can handle them safely as well as putting rounds downrange without putting the innocent in danger?

The law is (or should be) one thing. How we satisfy the "social contract" inherent in owning and carrying firearms is something completely different. Where a lot of folks get their hackles up is any intimation that the government, through law or regulation, should be enforcing that "social contract."

~ Boyd
 

MSC 45ACP

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Its good to see some fellow Small Arms Instructors in the group. I started teaching small arms in 1986 and have enjoyed it ever since. I also enjoyed the competition side of the house. Distinguished Pistol in 1993, a few High Power rifle matches but never got around to getting any leg points. Only have "Expert" qual with rifle & shotgun.

Shot in an IDPA match completely unprepared because a buddy said it would be fun! He was RIGHT! It was good training and a great learning experience. I've seen IPSC matches and there's a LOT of $$$ tied up in that stuff. Those guys shoot "space guns" that no one would ever carry on the street. You wouldn't carry a Bullseye gun either. IDPA is meant for "stock" guns and geared toward self-defense scenarios.

Do I feel EVERYONE should have range training if they own a firearm? YES!
Do I feel it should be REQUIRED to obtain a CC permit? YES!
We also need to be MENTALLY prepared at all times for the possibility of the feces hitting the rotating oscillator on very short notice.

I shudder to think about the aftermath of a "righteous shoot" if there were any collateral damage. I hope and pray the shooter hits what he aims at and NOTHING ELSE. May God help someone if they shoot someone that "didn't need shootin". The responsibility we havewhen weOC and CC is tremendous. There is no room for "error in judgement" or being a hothead. I've seen some posts on here by people that really seem like they're "wrapped too tight" to have this awesome responsibility.

I truly hope they are never put in a position where they THINK they need to use their weapon, but in the eyes of the law is not justified. We are put in a position of great trust and responsibility when we are authorized to drive a motor vehicle. We need to REMEMBER the awesome responsibility on our shoulders when we choose to carry a firearm. You can't go pick a fight or look for trouble thinking you can get yourself out of it by the mere presence of your firearm. It is a tool, like any other. It can be misused.

When you OC or CC, you need to be constantly aware of everything around you and NEVER get complacent. Many of us are so used to that extra weight on their hip,we feel naked without it. We should also feel naked if we don't keep "our heads in the game" at all times.

Everyone is prepared for what they are going to say to someone when they ask why they OC. Most also have a conversation in mind if they should encounter a less-than-educated LEO.

How many have a clue what they're going to say or do after their magazine ismissing afew rounds, spent casings (and possiblyan empty magazine) on the ground around you? I hope you have a lawyer's name programmed in your cell phone. Plan on wearing handcuffs for a while and maybe even spending some time in a cell. Think long and hard before you say ANYTHING to anyone else, especially after someone has read you yor Miranda Rights ("You have the right to remain silent...")

Its good to be ready, better to be prepared.

Keep your heads on a swivel out there and remember to be FLUID!
"Flexible is too rigid, Fluid is good!"
 

TexasNative

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MSC 45ACP wrote:
Do I feel EVERYONE should have range training if they own a firearm? YES!
Do I feel it should be REQUIRED to obtain a CC permit? YES!
Many of us chafe at the fact that we have to get the government's permission to carry a firearm in any way we see fit. When you start stacking on more and more requirements, it gives the government more opportunities to interfere with our rights.

And a question leaps to mind: why should range training be REQUIRED to carry concealed, and yet not a requirement to carry openly? That just sounds silly to me.

So when you say range time or demonstrated proficiency should be added to the requirements for exercising our God-given rights, a lot of us will disagree with you, vehemently so.

Yes, we feel everyone who carries a firearm should be competent to do so. We just feel that the government has no business forcing that requirement on us.

~ Boyd
 

AJG

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I cant help myself here. Please explain how its a God Given Right? God didnt write the 2nd Amendment. The founding fathers did, therefore is was the founding goverment in the first place. Now I'm not a abdicator of goverment control on anything, but lets be realistic.... its was a amendment written by the original goverment. Show me Gods signature on the Constitution!
 

TexasNative

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I don't claim to be qualified to give a civics lesson, but I'll give it a shot.

Our rights exist separately from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In fact, I believe we're misstating it when we talk about our right to bear arms, because it's really a more fundamental right. We have the right of self-defense, to protect ourselves against harm. This is not granted to us by the Founding Fathers, or by the Constitution, or by the 2nd Amendment. That right existed long before our country existed.

All the Bill of Rights does is state how the government is restricted from denying us our rights. Also, the Bill of Rights is not all-inclusive. We have rights that aren't listed there. In fact, the 9th Amendment explicitly states that:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Or refer to the Declaration of Independence, which states:

...that [all men] endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The Constitution establishes our federal government, and one of the purposes of that government is to guarantee our rights. No, the Constitution doesn't give me a single right. I have my rights even though my government may work to keep them from me.

If government has the power to give you rights, it also has the power to take them away. Even though it may deny you your rights, you still have them even if you can't exercise them.
 

AJG

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Well stated TN and I too totally believe that we have the "Right" to keep and bear arms. But to say its a God Given Right is incorrect.

The following arent my words, I found this while searching for God Given Rights, I didn't find anything on keeping or bearing arms."To identify a right as “god-given,” we need an action, a commandment, or a declaration, that clearly comes straight from god. And, such action, commandment or declaration should be so obvious and so undeniable that everyone will understand it – the dim-witted as well as the intelligent; the believer as well as the non-believer. What we need is a giant chariot, or sailing ship to appear in the sky all over the world at the same time. It will come to a halt and god will step out and stand in mid air; he will open his mouth and say, “Hear ye, hear ye, all men of all lands and all tongues (he will speak so that all men will understand), I am Zeus (Marduk, Budda, Ishstar – take your pick); I am the god(s) of the universe and I hereby declare that the following rights are granted by me to you.” He then would enumerate all such rights he wants men to have. Then he (or she) would tell you where to pay your taxes, previously called “sin offerings” – and about all the terrible things that would happen to you if you didn’t pay them.

Since these would be god-given rights; and since god is all powerful and all knowing, he would also declare that, if any of these rights are violated, the wrong-doer would be instantly, and automatically, punished. For it would make no sense for a god – who has the power to grant rights – to fail to also provide automatic remedies where a right is violated. You see, if this god granted rights, anyone who violated them would commit an offense against god as well as the life, liberty or property of a particular individual – and god would want instant and easy vindication.

I mean, who could be so blasphemous as to imagine a god who would grant rights and then fail to provide instant and automatic vindication when they are violated?

According to popular understanding god created everything, including gravity and all laws that govern it. Did you notice, if you disregard these laws of gravity, the consequences are swift and automatic. If you try to walk across a deep ravine without the aid of a bridge, you will fall to the bottom."
 

TexasNative

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So, the Declaration of Independence is incorrect in stating that we're endowed with rights by our Creator?
 

AJG

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Oh no.... its totally correct. We are endowed with rights. Keeping and Bearing Arms is defiantely one of them, its just not a God Given right is all.
 
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