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Thread: Personal Protection Ammo

  1. #1
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I've been contemplating switching my ammo for personal protection in my .40 S&W. Right now, I carry standard Winchester JHP's, which I imagine would do the trick, but after googling different pictures of other personal protection ammo, I realize that there are a lot of other ammunition's out there that have a bigger bore and probably have more stopping power. I started doing research, and I've got a tossup between multiple ammunitions.

    Right now, I've considered the following:

    Federal HST
    Winchester Rangers
    Cor Bon DPX
    Speer Gold Dot
    Federal EFMJ

    Any preferences? Why or why not?
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    Speer Gold Dot.

    If you match up the ballistics, the Gold Dot comes out on top.

    This is what I choose, and why.

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    Make sure that the round you choose feeds and cycle reliably and that point of aim is the same as point of impact. There can be variations between loads and manufacturers.

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    Federal HST is what I've gone with. In every test I've seen it always expands the exact same way- consistently. It outperformas all other ammo hands down. Downside is that many stores won't sell it because it's labeled LE only. I've got a small stockpile so I know you CAN get it. This is what every single HST I've ever seen looks like when it's been recovered. Jacket-Core separation is almost unheard of.





    Here's a good article on wound ballistics.



  5. #5
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    *bump*

    Any more feedback? I'm liking what I've read so far.
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  6. #6
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    Ge the Ballistics for each and post them here. That will give you one perspective.

    I'll try and do this tomorrow at work if no one else does.

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    Vote #2 for Gold Dot here.. Most every LE department I read about when I was trying to make my decision carried Gold Dots, Rangers, or HSTs so, all things being equal, I went with the GDs because they werethe easiest (and cheapest) to find.

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    Forget about Ranger Ammo, its LE only so screw them.

    Federal Hydra-Shok
    20 rounds
    COST = $21.00 to $24.00
    Ballistics//
    Muzzle Velocity - 1140 fps
    Muzzle Energy in ft lbs - 447

    Speer Gold Dot
    20 rounds
    COST = $21.00 to $24.00
    Ballistics//
    Muzzle Velocity - 1200 fps
    Muzzle Energy in ft lbs - 496

    Not a whole lot of difference, but enough to lead me to choose Speer Gold Dot. Plus I found the Federal ammo higher, and harder to find.



  9. #9
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Agent19 wrote: I don't see any valid reason for creeping over 1200 fps. Then you start having to worry about Over penetration as if you were shooting a 9mm.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Many loads exceed the 1200fps with no over penetration issues.

    There are many loads that are subsonic that penetrate further.


    Personal preference.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Agent19 wrote:
    Many loads exceed the 1200fps with no over penetration issues.

    There are many loads that are subsonic that penetrate further.


    Personal preference.
    Yea like 9mm rounds right ?

    Which is why LE Departments have just about all switched over to .40 and up.

  13. #13
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    Dustin wrote:
    Yea like 9mm rounds right ?

    Which is why LE Departments have just about all switched over to .40 and up.
    No one is discussing 9mm except you.

    The OP carries a .40, the link I provide was for .40.
    Okay we get it you don't like 9mm especially+p or +p+.

    Air Marshals carry glorified 9mm's, they don't seem too concerned with over penetration.
    Ill. State police have been using 9mm+P+ ammo for yrs and are happy with it and they carry Glocks(:shock.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Agent19 wrote:
    Dustin wrote:
    Yea like 9mm rounds right ?

    Which is why LE Departments have just about all switched over to .40 and up.
    No one is discussing 9mm except you.

    The OP carries a .40, the link I provide was for .40.
    Okay we get it you don't like 9mm especially+p or +p+.

    Air Marshals carry glorified 9mm's, they don't seem too concerned with over penetration.
    Ill. State police have been using 9mm+P+ ammo for yrs and are happy with it and they carry Glocks(:shock.
    Slow down and read a little.
    I said there's no sense in having a round go any faster than 1200. Otherwise you'd run the risk of over penetration LIKE 9mm's have. Which is exactly WHY LE departments ACROSS the nation DO NOT ALLOW 9mm's. So NO they are NOT happy with 9mm, which is why they are switching to begin with.


    This all revolves around the speed of the bullet, which is completely relevant to the topic at hand. It has nothing to do with my personal feeling towards 9mm. I could careless. I'm using the 9mm’s over penetration speed, in comparison as to why he SHOULD NOT worry about having a round faster than 1200.

    I've got lot's of LE in the family, from across Louisiana. They all have said that their departments have all made the switch to .40S&W or higher b/c of the dangers of over penetration, and for better knockdown power. Proving again, that speed is not what is needed, nor should it be desired.








  15. #15
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Many LEO agencies still issue 9mm's.
    NYPD, LVMPD Ill. State Policejust to name a few.
    What is the .357Sig if not a glorified 9mm going real fast, it is issued to Air Marshals.
    Many agenciies that don't issue 9mm still allow officers to carry it on and off duty.


    I have no issues with .40 @ speeds >1200 fps depending on bullet design as with any other caliber.


    When you compare the top (pistol) loads on this chart most are close or exceed 1200fps.
    http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppi....asp?Caliber=0

    Again personal perferrence, risk vs benefit.





    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  16. #16
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Dustin wrote:
    Forget about Ranger Ammo, its LE only so screw them.
    Are you sure about this? I know it USED to say this on the box, but so did Federal HST's, and I've seen places where you can buy both Federal HST's, as well as Rangers. I guess I need some clarification on this, because I was actually leaning toward Rangers until I read this.
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    So i just thought i would give my $0.02 on personal defense rounds, i have the magsafe rounds and sorry for no link but they are a lighter round then the standard hollow point and they reduce recoil by 20% i think as well as they have 6 little bb's in the bullet tip, they dont over penetrait and dont richochet, they say something along the lines of 64+ grain. Over all they are a awesome round for self defense, i use them in my glock 17 and my taurus pt 1911 45. acp. They run about $20 bucks for 8 rounds.Again im sorry for the lack of a link.

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    http://www.magsafeonline.com/ here is the link to there web site.

  19. #19
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I've seen those before, and almost considered them until I saw the price/ratio of ammo. Unfortunately, my magazine carries 14, and I have 2 mags, so I'd easily be spending close to $100 for them, where I can get a box of 50 Federal HSTs for around $37'ish. :/
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    malignity wrote:
    Dustin wrote:
    Forget about Ranger Ammo, its LE only so screw them.
    Are you sure about this? I know it USED to say this on the box, but so did Federal HST's, and I've seen places where you can buy both Federal HST's, as well as Rangers. I guess I need some clarification on this, because I was actually leaning toward Rangers until I read this.
    http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/
    Ranger® Law Enforcement

    At Winchester Ammunition, we're committed to designing, developing and manufacturing the finest handgun, rifle and shotshell ammunition in the world. We are extremely proud of the products we offer.
    The Winchester Ranger line of ammunition is available only to law enforcement agencies and is not available to the general public.

    Check out there Logo. It's for COPS and it reads:





    I will not support them with my money $$$ eitherway.

  21. #21
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Hm. I've seen places sell these before. Isn't that illegal then or something?
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    Like I said, I won't support them eitherway.

    What happens if you do shoot someone with them, and they say it's LE ONly AMMO.

    Remind you of the guy who went to jail b/c he used a 10mm ?

    What was his name ?

  23. #23
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Good point. And I believe you're talking about Harold Fish.

    On another note, does anyone have any personal experience with Federal EFMJ's? I know they're new, and I know the Detroit Police Department uses them. Anyone have any personal experience? They're intriguing to me a bit.
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  24. #24
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    Winchester Ranger, Federal HST or "Tactical JHP" and even some Remington Golden Saber loads have been marked on the box as "For LE use only." This is COMPANY POLICY, and designed to win ammo contracts from LE Agencies. That's it! It's NOT illegal to buy, own, or carry.

    I have boxes and boxes of LEO-marked ammo, and don't hesitate a moment to carry it for self defense.

    That being said, carry what you can get, as there is not a "bad" load on your list. The EFMJ is expensive to buy at 20 rounds per box, which is why I buy the LEO marked 50 round boxes of Ranger, HST and Gold Dot when I can find them. It's cheaper that way.

    Honestly, if you are comfortable with the "plain" JHP load in Winchester's line, and can hit what you aim at, there is no significant gainto be had by switching to a more expensive load with prettier packaging.

    And Dustin. Yourinexperience is shining through inthe broad statements that you aremaking regarding 9mm in LE usage, overpenetration, and your magic 1200 FPS number. The LARGEST law enforcement agency in the United States, which is in the most densely populated area of the country (read: overpenetration concern), uses9mm GLOCKs with 124gr+P loads ONLY. This is the NYPD. The USAir Marshals and US Secret Service, as well as a few other miscellaneousfederal agencies issue .355" projectile-launching noisemakers as well. These are .357 Sig-caliber weapons, ALL OF WHICH break the 1200 FPS "barrier" you have decided is dangerous and deadly because of overpenetration.

    KEY PRINCIPLE:In an expandingbullet, the faster it goes, the quickerit expands once it hits something soft, and the quicker it expands, thequicker it slows down (like a parachute expanding on the back of a drag car) the projectile,limiting penetration. By going heavy and "subsonic" you actually INCREASEpenetration of an expanding pistolprojectile and close thevelocitywindowfor potentialexpansion.

    And for what it's worth, I carry the heavy, subsonic ("overpenetrating"-GASP!) loads in all calibers 147gr 9mm, 180gr. .40S&W, and 230gr. 45ACP and focus my attention on making sure I can put them where it counts. The name on the side of the box will not make a bit of difference if you can effectively do this.

    Good luck.

    -G20

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    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

    And Dustin.* Your*inexperience is shining through in*the broad statements that you are*making regarding 9mm in LE usage,
    Yea Ok buddy, let's take advice from our nations most liberal state, or their LEOs

    I'm telling you, around here, that LE Departments DO NOT carry 9mm's and have done away with them. One of the reasons was OVER penetration. It's not my problem you refuse to acknowledge that.

    It's not just a Louisiana thing either. It doesn't take much research to clearly see that LE Departments across the nation are definitely favoring the G22. What Caliber is that ? There's also a specific reason why too. I let you figure that one out.

    I'm also not claiming that 1200 fps is the Magic number. But t certainly is a benchmark. If the .40 S&W, which is already a high pressure round, is traveling at a max of around 1200 fps, then it doesn't take an expert to reason that, hey that's a very good happy median for handgun ballistics. I recommended to him that "I" see no reason to push the envelope beyond that.

    You cannot argue against my "OWN" personal reasoning boneheads ...



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