malignity
Regular Member
imported post
Hm. I've seen places sell these before. Isn't that illegal then or something?
Hm. I've seen places sell these before. Isn't that illegal then or something?
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Personal Protection Ammo
- Thread starter malignity
- Start date
Dustin
Regular Member
imported post
Like I said, I won't support them eitherway.
What happens if you do shoot someone with them, and they say it's LE ONly AMMO.
Remind you of the guy who went to jail b/c he used a 10mm ?
What was his name ?
Like I said, I won't support them eitherway.
What happens if you do shoot someone with them, and they say it's LE ONly AMMO.
Remind you of the guy who went to jail b/c he used a 10mm ?
What was his name ?
malignity
Regular Member
imported post
Good point. And I believe you're talking about Harold Fish.
On another note, does anyone have any personal experience with Federal EFMJ's? I know they're new, and I know the Detroit Police Department uses them. Anyone have any personal experience? They're intriguing to me a bit.
Good point. And I believe you're talking about Harold Fish.
On another note, does anyone have any personal experience with Federal EFMJ's? I know they're new, and I know the Detroit Police Department uses them. Anyone have any personal experience? They're intriguing to me a bit.
G20-IWB24/7
Regular Member
imported post
Winchester Ranger, Federal HST or "Tactical JHP" and even some Remington Golden Saber loads have been marked on the box as "For LE use only." This is COMPANY POLICY, and designed to win ammo contracts from LE Agencies. That's it! It's NOT illegal to buy, own, or carry.
I have boxes and boxes of LEO-marked ammo, and don't hesitate a moment to carry it for self defense.
That being said, carry what you can get, as there is not a "bad" load on your list. The EFMJ is expensive to buy at 20 rounds per box, which is why I buy the LEO marked 50 round boxes of Ranger, HST and Gold Dot when I can find them. It's cheaper that way.
Honestly, if you are comfortable with the "plain" JHP load in Winchester's line, and can hit what you aim at, there is no significant gainto be had by switching to a more expensive load with prettier packaging.
And Dustin. Yourinexperience is shining through inthe broad statements that you aremaking regarding 9mm in LE usage, overpenetration, and your magic 1200 FPS number. The LARGEST law enforcement agency in the United States, which is in the most densely populated area of the country (read: overpenetration concern), uses9mm GLOCKs with 124gr+P loads ONLY. This is the NYPD. The USAir Marshals and US Secret Service, as well as a few other miscellaneousfederal agencies issue .355" projectile-launching noisemakers as well. These are .357 Sig-caliber weapons, ALL OF WHICH break the 1200 FPS "barrier" you have decided is dangerous and deadly because of overpenetration.
KEY PRINCIPLE:In an expandingbullet, the faster it goes, the quickerit expands once it hits something soft, and the quicker it expands, thequicker it slows down (like a parachute expanding on the back of a drag car) the projectile,limiting penetration. By going heavy and "subsonic" you actually INCREASEpenetration of an expanding pistolprojectile and close thevelocitywindowfor potentialexpansion.
And for what it's worth, I carry the heavy, subsonic ("overpenetrating"-GASP!) loads in all calibers 147gr 9mm, 180gr. .40S&W, and 230gr. 45ACP and focus my attention on making sure I can put them where it counts. The name on the side of the box will not make a bit of difference if you can effectively do this.
Good luck.
-G20
Winchester Ranger, Federal HST or "Tactical JHP" and even some Remington Golden Saber loads have been marked on the box as "For LE use only." This is COMPANY POLICY, and designed to win ammo contracts from LE Agencies. That's it! It's NOT illegal to buy, own, or carry.
I have boxes and boxes of LEO-marked ammo, and don't hesitate a moment to carry it for self defense.
That being said, carry what you can get, as there is not a "bad" load on your list. The EFMJ is expensive to buy at 20 rounds per box, which is why I buy the LEO marked 50 round boxes of Ranger, HST and Gold Dot when I can find them. It's cheaper that way.
Honestly, if you are comfortable with the "plain" JHP load in Winchester's line, and can hit what you aim at, there is no significant gainto be had by switching to a more expensive load with prettier packaging.
And Dustin. Yourinexperience is shining through inthe broad statements that you aremaking regarding 9mm in LE usage, overpenetration, and your magic 1200 FPS number. The LARGEST law enforcement agency in the United States, which is in the most densely populated area of the country (read: overpenetration concern), uses9mm GLOCKs with 124gr+P loads ONLY. This is the NYPD. The USAir Marshals and US Secret Service, as well as a few other miscellaneousfederal agencies issue .355" projectile-launching noisemakers as well. These are .357 Sig-caliber weapons, ALL OF WHICH break the 1200 FPS "barrier" you have decided is dangerous and deadly because of overpenetration.
KEY PRINCIPLE:In an expandingbullet, the faster it goes, the quickerit expands once it hits something soft, and the quicker it expands, thequicker it slows down (like a parachute expanding on the back of a drag car) the projectile,limiting penetration. By going heavy and "subsonic" you actually INCREASEpenetration of an expanding pistolprojectile and close thevelocitywindowfor potentialexpansion.
And for what it's worth, I carry the heavy, subsonic ("overpenetrating"-GASP!) loads in all calibers 147gr 9mm, 180gr. .40S&W, and 230gr. 45ACP and focus my attention on making sure I can put them where it counts. The name on the side of the box will not make a bit of difference if you can effectively do this.
Good luck.
-G20
Dustin
Regular Member
imported post
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Yea Ok buddy, let's take advice from our nations most liberal state, or their LEOs :uhoh:
I'm telling you, around here, that LE Departments DO NOT carry 9mm's and have done away with them. One of the reasons was OVER penetration. It's not my problem you refuse to acknowledge that.
It's not just a Louisiana thing either. It doesn't take much research to clearly see that LE Departments across the nation are definitely favoring the G22. What Caliber is that ? There's also a specific reason why too. I let you figure that one out.
I'm also not claiming that 1200 fps is the Magic number. But t certainly is a benchmark. If the .40 S&W, which is already a high pressure round, is traveling at a max of around 1200 fps, then it doesn't take an expert to reason that, hey that's a very good happy median for handgun ballistics. I recommended to him that "I" see no reason to push the envelope beyond that.
You cannot argue against my "OWN" personal reasoning boneheads ...
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Yea Ok buddy, let's take advice from our nations most liberal state, or their LEOs :uhoh:
I'm telling you, around here, that LE Departments DO NOT carry 9mm's and have done away with them. One of the reasons was OVER penetration. It's not my problem you refuse to acknowledge that.
It's not just a Louisiana thing either. It doesn't take much research to clearly see that LE Departments across the nation are definitely favoring the G22. What Caliber is that ? There's also a specific reason why too. I let you figure that one out.
I'm also not claiming that 1200 fps is the Magic number. But t certainly is a benchmark. If the .40 S&W, which is already a high pressure round, is traveling at a max of around 1200 fps, then it doesn't take an expert to reason that, hey that's a very good happy median for handgun ballistics. I recommended to him that "I" see no reason to push the envelope beyond that.
You cannot argue against my "OWN" personal reasoning boneheads ...
G20-IWB24/7
Regular Member
imported post
Dustin wrote:
I guess we'd all be better off taking advice from some random armchair commando from SouthWest Louisiana, huh?:quirky You did not address any of the points that I made, which means that either you don't have a good answer, or you can't figure out how to put your answer into words. So which is it?
Oh, and I'm sure Winchester is missing the huge amount of profit they don't get from the half-dozen boxes of defensive ammo you don't buy from them to "make a point." Way to go with that.You know that Federal has actually stopped shipping anything from their LE ammo line to anyone but LE Agencies, right? Winchester will still ship to mostly any gunshop that supplies individual officers and/or departments. It is then up to the gunshop who they will sell to.
I just love people commenting about things that they get from good ole' standard heresay.
Dustin wrote:
I guess we'd all be better off taking advice from some random armchair commando from SouthWest Louisiana, huh?:quirky You did not address any of the points that I made, which means that either you don't have a good answer, or you can't figure out how to put your answer into words. So which is it?
Oh, and I'm sure Winchester is missing the huge amount of profit they don't get from the half-dozen boxes of defensive ammo you don't buy from them to "make a point." Way to go with that.You know that Federal has actually stopped shipping anything from their LE ammo line to anyone but LE Agencies, right? Winchester will still ship to mostly any gunshop that supplies individual officers and/or departments. It is then up to the gunshop who they will sell to.
I just love people commenting about things that they get from good ole' standard heresay.
imported post
My opinions on defensive ammunition are purely academic (thank God) but here goes.
I like the theory of Hydra-shok and I like Federal quality. That makes them my primary carry. However, I also like simple ball in .40 and .45. The wide flat nose of the .40 would hit hard and in .45, well it's already fat so expansion isn't much of a concern; anyway it's problematic at those velocities.
Another thought: In the Miami shootout, wasn't the carnage partly the result of the failure of ammunition to perform?
My opinions on defensive ammunition are purely academic (thank God) but here goes.
I like the theory of Hydra-shok and I like Federal quality. That makes them my primary carry. However, I also like simple ball in .40 and .45. The wide flat nose of the .40 would hit hard and in .45, well it's already fat so expansion isn't much of a concern; anyway it's problematic at those velocities.
Another thought: In the Miami shootout, wasn't the carnage partly the result of the failure of ammunition to perform?
KansasMustang
Regular Member
imported post
Golden Sabres, they're the same round as "Black Talons" except they're not black.
Golden Sabres, they're the same round as "Black Talons" except they're not black.
Marco
Regular Member
imported post
KansasMustang wrote:
They are made by two different companies, one Winchester the other Remington.
The jacket is a totally different design.
Winchester SXT is a modified BT.
Not Rem's GS or ATK's GD.
KansasMustang wrote:
:question:
They are made by two different companies, one Winchester the other Remington.
The jacket is a totally different design.
Winchester SXT is a modified BT.
Not Rem's GS or ATK's GD.
Dustin
Regular Member
imported post
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Air Marshall's and NYPD hardly speak volume's in comparison to the thousands of other LE Departments.
You have no point when speaking about the nation, only in comparision to the agencies above.
And just becuase you can't stand up for what you believe in, doesn't mean we have to stoop to your level. I stand up for those things I believe in. If we all thought like you, (If we all thought that one person can't make a difference,) we'd be a communist nation.
Armchair commando ?
No more invalid points to make so you result to name calling eh ?
Your maturity is shinning through.
I'm no arm chair commando, again I'll inform you that you can't debate against my OWN PERSONAL OPINION. I've served my time in the Corps, and continue to do so. I've put my fair share down range both training and overseas.I've been in over a dozen firefightsboth in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm nottrying to stand on a soapbox here, i'm trying to give you a prespective of where i'm coming from. I'm no arm chair commando.I base my opinion from what I've read and seen and experienced. If this guy does not want it, than so be it. I've given the facts about the majority of LE Departments across the nation now using the ever popular G22, AND continuing daily to change to it.
You've said that NYPD and Air Marshall's still use 9mm +p ammo.
Great, Fine, It's over .... It's Friday my friend .... :monkey
And I'm taking off at 10:00 to take the kids fishing
and the wife too :lol:
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Air Marshall's and NYPD hardly speak volume's in comparison to the thousands of other LE Departments.
You have no point when speaking about the nation, only in comparision to the agencies above.
And just becuase you can't stand up for what you believe in, doesn't mean we have to stoop to your level. I stand up for those things I believe in. If we all thought like you, (If we all thought that one person can't make a difference,) we'd be a communist nation.
Armchair commando ?
No more invalid points to make so you result to name calling eh ?
Your maturity is shinning through.
I'm no arm chair commando, again I'll inform you that you can't debate against my OWN PERSONAL OPINION. I've served my time in the Corps, and continue to do so. I've put my fair share down range both training and overseas.I've been in over a dozen firefightsboth in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm nottrying to stand on a soapbox here, i'm trying to give you a prespective of where i'm coming from. I'm no arm chair commando.I base my opinion from what I've read and seen and experienced. If this guy does not want it, than so be it. I've given the facts about the majority of LE Departments across the nation now using the ever popular G22, AND continuing daily to change to it.
You've said that NYPD and Air Marshall's still use 9mm +p ammo.
Great, Fine, It's over .... It's Friday my friend .... :monkey
And I'm taking off at 10:00 to take the kids fishing
and the wife too :lol:
tripledipper
Regular Member
imported post
NYPD & innovation = oxymoron
NYPD & innovation = oxymoron
SpringerXDacp
New member
imported post
malignity wrote:
In an attempt to keep the thread on topic andhinder the possibility of a thread lock...For SD rounds, I have the Winchester SXT's (not Ranger T's but similar) that I purchased 4 years ago. My next purchase for SD will be the Ranger T's and/or Federal HST's-both are available for non-LEO's regardless of what you may hear/read.
malignity wrote:
In an attempt to keep the thread on topic andhinder the possibility of a thread lock...For SD rounds, I have the Winchester SXT's (not Ranger T's but similar) that I purchased 4 years ago. My next purchase for SD will be the Ranger T's and/or Federal HST's-both are available for non-LEO's regardless of what you may hear/read.
KansasMustang
Regular Member
imported post
Agent19 wrote:
Agent19 wrote:
IF you look at the pics of the expansion and results, they're the same round, you nitpickin and splittin hairs?
KansasMustang
Regular Member
imported post
ooops double post
ooops double post
KansasMustang
Regular Member
imported post
Aaaaaand,,if you're carrying .45 ACP, does it really matter? we're talkin' at least a 95% first round knock down.
Aaaaaand,,if you're carrying .45 ACP, does it really matter? we're talkin' at least a 95% first round knock down.
Marco
Regular Member
imported post
KansasMustang wrote:
Splitting hairs, no!
The OP was discussing .40SW not .45acp.
If you compare the performance of the GS to the BT on this chart (Marshall/Sanow).
the GS out performs the BT.
http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=11&Weight=All
They perform differently.
Winchester relabeled the BT to SXT, they even keep the black jacket.
ThenWin. changed the jacket removing the sharp peddles andthe black jacket.
Yes, I agree in .45acp the two rounds are similar.
KansasMustang wrote:
Splitting hairs, no!
The OP was discussing .40SW not .45acp.
If you compare the performance of the GS to the BT on this chart (Marshall/Sanow).
the GS out performs the BT.
http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=11&Weight=All
They perform differently.
Winchester relabeled the BT to SXT, they even keep the black jacket.
ThenWin. changed the jacket removing the sharp peddles andthe black jacket.
Yes, I agree in .45acp the two rounds are similar.
Spectre
Regular Member
imported post
malignity wrote:
No it's not illegal. Not so more than you can still get magazines marked Law Enforcement Only. Ballester and myself both carried Ranger SXT's in our firearms.
malignity wrote:
No it's not illegal. Not so more than you can still get magazines marked Law Enforcement Only. Ballester and myself both carried Ranger SXT's in our firearms.
Blaidd
Regular Member
imported post
Really the best personal defense ammo I've found is what ever is in the gun. Now, I do like Hydra-shock, Gold Dot and XTP because of being able to find it in my area. Also, if you haven't seen the way a hydra-shock tears up a 2 ltr bottle of water at 25 yards, your missing something. :celebrate
Really the best personal defense ammo I've found is what ever is in the gun. Now, I do like Hydra-shock, Gold Dot and XTP because of being able to find it in my area. Also, if you haven't seen the way a hydra-shock tears up a 2 ltr bottle of water at 25 yards, your missing something. :celebrate
KansasMustang
Regular Member
imported post
Agent19 wrote: .
84% 1 round knock down to 86%,,,still say yer splittin hairs
Keep your powder dry!
Agent19 wrote:
Ooops,,my bad. Didn't realize he was talkin' .40 cal. It's a good round either way. I carry a .40 cal CC, but prefer a .45 or 44 mag for OC. Either way a .40 is still a good caliber. But I convinced my brother he should have a .45
.84% 1 round knock down to 86%,,,still say yer splittin hairs
Keep your powder dry!
redlegagent
Regular Member
imported post
Has anyone tried the new Hornady Critical Defense rounds yet?? They have been hard to come by in this area but that's not unusual.
Has anyone tried the new Hornady Critical Defense rounds yet?? They have been hard to come by in this area but that's not unusual.