Fetts Lady
Regular Member
imported post
We carry HSTs. .45 on the left and 9mm on the right.
We carry HSTs. .45 on the left and 9mm on the right.
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Personal Protection Ammo
- Thread starter malignity
- Start date
curtm1911
Regular Member
imported post
OOHHHHHHHHHHH MY, such pretty pictures, looks like good weight retention too........
OOHHHHHHHHHHH MY, such pretty pictures, looks like good weight retention too........
reconvic
Regular Member
imported post
Ammo depends on what you are shooting at you would want a Bonded bullet for shooting at car Glass. but for personal protection actually witha .45 and most Ammo these days shot placement counts more. I load my own Gold Dots
for my .45's.
S/F Vic
Ammo depends on what you are shooting at you would want a Bonded bullet for shooting at car Glass. but for personal protection actually witha .45 and most Ammo these days shot placement counts more. I load my own Gold Dots
for my .45's.
S/F Vic
reconvic
Regular Member
imported post
Ok I do admit I own 2 G-19 Glocks but they are my wife's carry gun's which I have the competition trigger and spring in it and found it will shoot Golden Sabers which is configured closest to ball ammo and will feed flawless and the F.B.I use them so they do have the stopping power. That is what I would really recommend, no need to buy the bonded ones.
S/F Vic
Ok I do admit I own 2 G-19 Glocks but they are my wife's carry gun's which I have the competition trigger and spring in it and found it will shoot Golden Sabers which is configured closest to ball ammo and will feed flawless and the F.B.I use them so they do have the stopping power. That is what I would really recommend, no need to buy the bonded ones.
S/F Vic
reconvic
Regular Member
imported post
Just to help set the record correct Blk Talons are now call Ranger T ammo, the color means nothing. It is NOT against the law to use or carry them, it is Winchesters choice only to sell them to LEO. I know where to get plenty of them and as I said I am retired. I use to use them but for reliability issues I can truly attest to G/S. It has been rumored for years about blk Talons yet in AZ you can get them at any gun show? I hope this helped. The Manufacturer has the right to sell to whom they want as a bar can refuse service to whom they want.
S/F Vic
Just to help set the record correct Blk Talons are now call Ranger T ammo, the color means nothing. It is NOT against the law to use or carry them, it is Winchesters choice only to sell them to LEO. I know where to get plenty of them and as I said I am retired. I use to use them but for reliability issues I can truly attest to G/S. It has been rumored for years about blk Talons yet in AZ you can get them at any gun show? I hope this helped. The Manufacturer has the right to sell to whom they want as a bar can refuse service to whom they want.
S/F Vic
Chaingun81
Regular Member
imported post
Local store here started selling Winchester Ranger to everyone last summer and continued to do so all the way until ammo shelves were cleared up by the hoarders. It is for sure a great deal compared to 20 rd. boxes of Speer GD or Hydra-shocks.
Also, while I wouldn't trust NYPD on most things, this one is kind of indicative. Being a large LE department in a very liberal area, they face the typical LE neutering which inavoidably happens in all liberal places. That alone would prompt them to avoid any possible lawsuits which have even a slight chance of proving anythingreckless.
That doesn't necessarily mean that 9mm is the safest round - no, absolutely not - but it does mean that it's not significantly or conclusively much more dangerous (for bystanders) than other options. Obviously, overpenetration would be a MUCH bigger issue in a city like NY than it would be in 99% of the country. See what I mean?
Other than that, I wouldn't want it to be yet ANOTHER 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. I don't think that anyone here would arguethat45 ACP is better or stronger than 9mm. 45 is a more powerful and more effective round, period. But 9mm is a fine round too. Yes, it's not as effective as 45 and it has it's weak spots, but overall many decades of service killing human targets, proved that 9mm is Ok.
It's cheaper too and therefore one would be able to practice more with 9mm than with 45 and make him/herself more accurate andyou know the old saying about shot placement- "I'd rather be missedby a 45 than hit by a 22".
The bottom line is that 380, 38, 357,9mm, 40, 44, 45 and many others are all appropriate calibers to stop a human size target. Some are more effective and powerful and some less, but not a single one here is useless. You can safely say that using a .177 airgunagainstpissed off grizzly is useless, just like using 45 ACP against tank armor; but using any of the above mentioned calibers for self defense against a 2-leggedpredatoris all reasonable.
The rest is a matter of personal choice. Some are more sensetive to recoil than others. Some can only afford the cheaper loads. Some put all the training in the first shot and really don't practice double taps and other follow up shots much. All this and many other things should go in consideration when picking a caliber, not just pure ballistic perfomance.
Local store here started selling Winchester Ranger to everyone last summer and continued to do so all the way until ammo shelves were cleared up by the hoarders. It is for sure a great deal compared to 20 rd. boxes of Speer GD or Hydra-shocks.
Also, while I wouldn't trust NYPD on most things, this one is kind of indicative. Being a large LE department in a very liberal area, they face the typical LE neutering which inavoidably happens in all liberal places. That alone would prompt them to avoid any possible lawsuits which have even a slight chance of proving anythingreckless.
That doesn't necessarily mean that 9mm is the safest round - no, absolutely not - but it does mean that it's not significantly or conclusively much more dangerous (for bystanders) than other options. Obviously, overpenetration would be a MUCH bigger issue in a city like NY than it would be in 99% of the country. See what I mean?
Other than that, I wouldn't want it to be yet ANOTHER 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. I don't think that anyone here would arguethat45 ACP is better or stronger than 9mm. 45 is a more powerful and more effective round, period. But 9mm is a fine round too. Yes, it's not as effective as 45 and it has it's weak spots, but overall many decades of service killing human targets, proved that 9mm is Ok.
It's cheaper too and therefore one would be able to practice more with 9mm than with 45 and make him/herself more accurate andyou know the old saying about shot placement- "I'd rather be missedby a 45 than hit by a 22".
The bottom line is that 380, 38, 357,9mm, 40, 44, 45 and many others are all appropriate calibers to stop a human size target. Some are more effective and powerful and some less, but not a single one here is useless. You can safely say that using a .177 airgunagainstpissed off grizzly is useless, just like using 45 ACP against tank armor; but using any of the above mentioned calibers for self defense against a 2-leggedpredatoris all reasonable.
The rest is a matter of personal choice. Some are more sensetive to recoil than others. Some can only afford the cheaper loads. Some put all the training in the first shot and really don't practice double taps and other follow up shots much. All this and many other things should go in consideration when picking a caliber, not just pure ballistic perfomance.
reconvic
Regular Member
imported post
"I'd rather be missed by a 45 than hit by a 22" words to live by.
NY police went to a 9mm due to price and the ability to hit their targets more with a 9mm. With a .45 they were all over, they use statistics to determine a 9mm
Hit ratio was best suited not to mention the 12 LBS NY Glock trigger they use lol:shock:
S/F Vic
"I'd rather be missed by a 45 than hit by a 22" words to live by.
NY police went to a 9mm due to price and the ability to hit their targets more with a 9mm. With a .45 they were all over, they use statistics to determine a 9mm
Hit ratio was best suited not to mention the 12 LBS NY Glock trigger they use lol:shock:
S/F Vic
reconvic
Regular Member
imported post
I will say this one more time lol. Ranger T ammo is NOT illegal at all for civies
Winchester choice was to make the for LEO's but it is not a law!:banghead:
Golden Sabers are not even made by Winchester as Ranger T or your Blk Talons. Remember shot placement counts more then the ammo used. I went to Scottsdale gun range and shoot for 2 hours, practice will make you a good shooter not the ammo.
S/F Vic
I will say this one more time lol. Ranger T ammo is NOT illegal at all for civies
Winchester choice was to make the for LEO's but it is not a law!:banghead:
Golden Sabers are not even made by Winchester as Ranger T or your Blk Talons. Remember shot placement counts more then the ammo used. I went to Scottsdale gun range and shoot for 2 hours, practice will make you a good shooter not the ammo.
S/F Vic
usdm419
Regular Member
imported post
I carry Winchester 230gr. JHP's (.45) *shrug*
If I put it in a BG's chest and he continues to be a threat, then I'm in for a fight.
I carry Winchester 230gr. JHP's (.45) *shrug*
If I put it in a BG's chest and he continues to be a threat, then I'm in for a fight.
6L6GC
Regular Member
imported post
I don't know if this link will work or not, but give it a try. It's from the Beretta Forum. Scroll down through the threads to see the pictures of the various brands of ammo and the results this man got with them.
I know that this is for 9mm ammo but I think that the results would be mostly the same per brand as far as performance goes. At any rate, it is interesting to compare the various different brands side by side when fired from the same gun into the same media.
http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=38003
I don't know if this link will work or not, but give it a try. It's from the Beretta Forum. Scroll down through the threads to see the pictures of the various brands of ammo and the results this man got with them.
I know that this is for 9mm ammo but I think that the results would be mostly the same per brand as far as performance goes. At any rate, it is interesting to compare the various different brands side by side when fired from the same gun into the same media.
http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=38003
rpyne
Regular Member
imported post
The best advice I have ever received on what ammo to carry for self defense was to call the local PD and ask what they use.
Along with that, never, never, NEVER carry hand loaded ammo for self defense. Use ONLY factory loads.
Picture this courtroom scene... "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, the defendant was so intent on doing the maximum harm to the deceased that he couldn't be content with ammunition that can be purchased from reputable manufacturers, he had to take the time and effort to load his own extra high-powered and extra deadly ammunition."
The best advice I have ever received on what ammo to carry for self defense was to call the local PD and ask what they use.
Along with that, never, never, NEVER carry hand loaded ammo for self defense. Use ONLY factory loads.
Picture this courtroom scene... "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, the defendant was so intent on doing the maximum harm to the deceased that he couldn't be content with ammunition that can be purchased from reputable manufacturers, he had to take the time and effort to load his own extra high-powered and extra deadly ammunition."
RebelHell
Regular Member
imported post
Read Massad Ayoob's concealed carry book. He has a wonderful list in there with ammo types you should use. Instead of basing his list off of ballistics he uses real world results from defensive shooting situations.
That being said I carry Taurus 24/7 Pro .40 S&W and my carry ammo is Federal Premium 180 grain HST. The 165 rain seems to have better results but I practice with 180 and feel thats what I should use for carry ammo. It's much easier to find too.
Read Massad Ayoob's concealed carry book. He has a wonderful list in there with ammo types you should use. Instead of basing his list off of ballistics he uses real world results from defensive shooting situations.
That being said I carry Taurus 24/7 Pro .40 S&W and my carry ammo is Federal Premium 180 grain HST. The 165 rain seems to have better results but I practice with 180 and feel thats what I should use for carry ammo. It's much easier to find too.
6L6GC
Regular Member
imported post
rpyne wrote:
I just have to say that I am skeptical of this idea that you're screwed if you use handloaded ammo for self defense. Any good defense attorney could offer a number of sufficient rebuttals to such a baseless argument anyway. With a little preparation and some thought the handloaded ammo argument could be turned around and used as a defense.
rpyne wrote:
I always hear this said but I would like for someone to cite a case where this has actually happened. I think it is mostly bunk. If you ever have to shoot someone in self defense the prosecuting attorney will try to make you out to be a fiend of some sort. The fact that you used your own handloaded ammo will not likely swing the jury from not guilt to guilty unless there is a strong case against you in the first place.The best advice I have ever received on what ammo to carry for self defense was to call the local PD and ask what they use.
Along with that, never, never, NEVER carry hand loaded ammo for self defense. Use ONLY factory loads.
Picture this courtroom scene... "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, the defendant was so intent on doing the maximum harm to the deceased that he couldn't be content with ammunition that can be purchased from reputable manufacturers, he had to take the time and effort to load his own extra high-powered and extra deadly ammunition."
I just have to say that I am skeptical of this idea that you're screwed if you use handloaded ammo for self defense. Any good defense attorney could offer a number of sufficient rebuttals to such a baseless argument anyway. With a little preparation and some thought the handloaded ammo argument could be turned around and used as a defense.
imported post
Whereas I really think Ayoob is wrong about all this with reloaded ammo and prosecutors, if it were to come up, you could always point to the recent hoarding as a justification for using homebrew ammo: there simply wasn't any factory stuff on the shelves to get otherwise, your honor. I'm sure at least one juror will sympathize, and that's all it takes at the end of the day.
-ljp
Whereas I really think Ayoob is wrong about all this with reloaded ammo and prosecutors, if it were to come up, you could always point to the recent hoarding as a justification for using homebrew ammo: there simply wasn't any factory stuff on the shelves to get otherwise, your honor. I'm sure at least one juror will sympathize, and that's all it takes at the end of the day.
-ljp
colt45ws
Regular Member
imported post
I carry DoubleTap 9mm +P 124gr "Bonded Defense." Look exactly like Gold Dots.
I carry DoubleTap 9mm +P 124gr "Bonded Defense." Look exactly like Gold Dots.
RebelHell
Regular Member
imported post
Legba wrote:
Legba wrote:
Actually I do believe Ayoob quoted one case in his book where a gentleman had standard reloads in +P+ casings. When ballistics did their magic it looked like he had taken the shot from a lot farther than he actually had.Whereas I really think Ayoob is wrong about all this with reloaded ammo and prosecutors, if it were to come up, you could always point to the recent hoarding as a justification for using homebrew ammo: there simply wasn't any factory stuff on the shelves to get otherwise, your honor. I'm sure at least one juror will sympathize, and that's all it takes at the end of the day.
-ljp
Hendu024
Regular Member
imported post
I used to carry Hydra-Shocks in my G23, but I switched to Golden Sabers quite a while ago, been carrying them ever since.
I used to carry Hydra-Shocks in my G23, but I switched to Golden Sabers quite a while ago, been carrying them ever since.
smash29
Regular Member
imported post
Legba wrote:
I'll try to summarize the Ayoob article I have in front of me because I can't type well enough or fast enough to reiterate the whole thing.
Case #1: Cop shoots criminal who tries to take his gun away from him and is charged criminally because the criminal claimed he was 30 feet away from the cop and was "shot for nothing". Department issue ammo identical to that used by the Officer is test fired and when the results are compared to the GSR residue on the criminals clothing it is shown that the criminal was 18 inches from the muzzle when he was shot. Officer acquitted.
Case #2: Private citizen/handloader loads very mild ammousing Federal .38 Special +P casings for his wife's home defense revolver. He comes home one night to find her with the gun to her head and as he attempts to get the gun from her it discharges in her hand, at arms length,killing her. Investigators do GSR testing ofFederal .38 Special +P factory ammowhich shows that residue would be deposited beyond arm's length,and since there was none on her body they conclude that he murdered her from a distance and was lying about it. The husband's loading notes are seen as "manufactured evidence" and not accepted by the court during his trial and he is convicted of manslaughter because he couldn't prove what was in the handloads he'd made up. Husband spends several years in prison.
In a review of his file of open cases in whichhe was serving as an expert witness Ayoob noted that in 40% of them things happened so close that GSR was an issue.
Personally I'll stick with the factory stuff, one less potential issue to deal with...
Legba wrote:
Whereas I really think Ayoob is wrong about all this with reloaded ammo and prosecutors, if it were to come up, you could always point to the recent hoarding as a justification for using homebrew ammo: there simply wasn't any factory stuff on the shelves to get otherwise, your honor. I'm sure at least one juror will sympathize, and that's all it takes at the end of the day.
-ljp
I'll try to summarize the Ayoob article I have in front of me because I can't type well enough or fast enough to reiterate the whole thing.
Case #1: Cop shoots criminal who tries to take his gun away from him and is charged criminally because the criminal claimed he was 30 feet away from the cop and was "shot for nothing". Department issue ammo identical to that used by the Officer is test fired and when the results are compared to the GSR residue on the criminals clothing it is shown that the criminal was 18 inches from the muzzle when he was shot. Officer acquitted.
Case #2: Private citizen/handloader loads very mild ammousing Federal .38 Special +P casings for his wife's home defense revolver. He comes home one night to find her with the gun to her head and as he attempts to get the gun from her it discharges in her hand, at arms length,killing her. Investigators do GSR testing ofFederal .38 Special +P factory ammowhich shows that residue would be deposited beyond arm's length,and since there was none on her body they conclude that he murdered her from a distance and was lying about it. The husband's loading notes are seen as "manufactured evidence" and not accepted by the court during his trial and he is convicted of manslaughter because he couldn't prove what was in the handloads he'd made up. Husband spends several years in prison.
In a review of his file of open cases in whichhe was serving as an expert witness Ayoob noted that in 40% of them things happened so close that GSR was an issue.
Personally I'll stick with the factory stuff, one less potential issue to deal with...
reconvic
Regular Member
imported post
If you use what the Police use you most likely will never get in trouble.
If you use Powerball, or Extreme a good lawyer will paint you as a person looking for trouble. In a .45 even ball ammo will drop a person with one shot. It is not the Bullet as much as the placement of the bullet Right.
S/F. Vic
If you use what the Police use you most likely will never get in trouble.
If you use Powerball, or Extreme a good lawyer will paint you as a person looking for trouble. In a .45 even ball ammo will drop a person with one shot. It is not the Bullet as much as the placement of the bullet Right.
S/F. Vic
RebelHell
Regular Member
imported post
reconvic wrote:
reconvic wrote:
Let us please reiterate however due to the excessive penetration of FMJ or ball ammo, hollow points are recommended to prevent a through and through and potentially injuring innocent bystanders.If you use what the Police use you most likely will never get in trouble.
If you use Powerball, or Extreme a good lawyer will paint you as a person looking for trouble. In a .45 even ball ammo will drop a person with one shot. It is not the Bullet as much as the placement of the bullet Right.
S/F. Vic