• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Robbery thwarted by citizen open carrying - in a school zone!

jjcharris

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
20
Location
racine, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Found this on http://www.journaltimes.com, seems my lovely city of Racine just may be a good place to OC afterall. He did all this WHILEwithin the 1000ft boundary of a school zone. After being checked out at the hospital, the cops GAVE him a ride home AND returned his firearm. No word yet on any charges, but at least they didnt fine him on the spot, lock him up, OR confiscate his firearm.

Exact url of story is: http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2009/05/05/local_news/doc4a00cc4767cb9957429120.txt

RACINE — Four teens knocked a 42-year-old Racine man from his bike Friday night. He thought they were going to rob him.

The man pulled a Smith and Wesson revolver from his side holster, pointed it at the sky and yelled, “Gun!”

The four suspects ran, and the man flagged down a Racine police officer.

The incident will perhaps mark the first time a new opinion allowing open carry of firearms is put to the test here, as it conflicts with another state statue that makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1,000 feet of a school, if not on private property.

The Racine man involved, who asked not to be named and declined to comment on the alleged robbery attempt when contacted by The Journal Times, was assaulted in the 1100 block of Grand Avenue, which is within 1,000 feet of Walden School, 1012 Center St.

Police did not arrest the man. After he was treated for head and wrist injuries at the scene by Racine rescue, officers escorted the man home and returned his gun to him.

But that doesn’t mean charges won’t be filed against the man, and police are questioning how such situations should be handled in the future.

“It’s difficult with the way the laws are written to carry (a gun) and not get into trouble,” said police spokesman Lt. Jim Dobbs.

He said the new open carry ruling will probably prompt more and more people to wear firearms, but in many places in the city, even stepping off their front porch would mean they are breaking the law.

“People will break the law inadvertently,” Dobbs said. “We want clarification from the state on what we should be doing.”

Last month, Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen sent out a memo saying openly wearing a holstered gun is not illegal. While Wisconsin law states a person cannot legally carry a concealed weapon, it does not address carrying a firearm in plain sight.

The opinion has created many questions, now including the apparent conflict between the existing statue over possessing a firearm near a school.

Racine County District Attorney Mike Nieskes said Tuesday that he has been briefed on the incident and has talked to the state Attorney General’s Office about it. “We don’t have all the information,” he said. “It’s still under investigation.”

Bill Cosh, spokesman for the state Department of Justice, said the Attorney General's Office wouldn't comment on specific cases or fact-pattern scenarios.

According to the police report, just after 10:30 p.m. an officer on patrol saw a bike lying in the roadway in the 1100 block of Grand Avenue. He then saw the victim walk out from between two houses holding a revolver. The man flagged the officer down as he set the gun on the concrete.

The man told the officer that he had just been assaulted. He said he was openly carrying his black and silver revolver in a side holster while riding his bike west on 12th Street toward Grand Avenue. He saw a group of teens on the corner of 12th and Grand and said, “Bike coming through,” to warn the group.

As the man turned onto Grand Avenue, he turned around to look at the group and was hit in the back of the head, the police report said. The man was knocked from his bike and hit in the head again.

The man told police he drew his revolver, pointed it to the sky and yelled out, “Gun!”

The four suspects ran west on 12th Street and the man went to hide between the two houses. He told police he intended to contact authorities, but then saw the squad car pulling up.

According to the report, the man believed the teens were trying to rob him. He could not give police a description other than the suspects were four black, male teens
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Presumably under Hamdan-Vegas doctrine the man can assert the Wisconsin constitutiona as a defense as his carriage of the gun was a lawful purpose.

But will the prosecutor exercise proper judgement and accept the defense? or will he prosecute anyway?
 

jjcharris

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
20
Location
racine, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Mike wrote:
There are probably 2 statutory violations here - carrying a loaded gun on/in a vehicle and within a school zone.

Presumably under Hamdan-Vegas doctrine the man can assert the Wisconsin constitutiona as a defense as his carriage of the gun was a lawfukl purpose.

But will the prosecutor exercise proper judgement and accept the defense? or will he prosecute anyway?

I believe he was on a "pedal type bike", not the "vroom vroom type", so that wouldn't be "carrying a loaded gun on/in a vehicle" would it?

Also, the school zone thing, yes, it is acknowledged that it was and is against the law, but I believe it is a good thing that he wasnt locked up right that minute, and his firearm wasn't taken. It shows our police dept isn't as quick as some other areas to "prove a point".
 

JohnK87

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
47
Location
Hastings, Minnesota, USA
imported post

IIRC, doesn't the Federal statute state you KNOWINGLY are within 1000 ft? There haven't been many challenges of that yet, it's ripe for one. I hope prosecutorial discretion keeps them from filing charges against him.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

I believe we've examined the "bicycle" question elsewhere in the forum and concluded it's not a "vehicle" for the purposes of the "vehicle transport" law. But again, it's my fuzzy memory that's telling me this.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

JohnK87 wrote:
IIRC, doesn't the Federal statute state you KNOWINGLY are within 1000 ft? There haven't been many challenges of that yet, it's ripe for one. I hope prosecutorial discretion keeps them from filing charges against him.
The state statute says "knowingly" or has "reasonable cause to believe" they are in a school zone.
 

jjcharris

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
20
Location
racine, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Unfortunately, since this man was most likely from this area, he knew he was by the school, its clearly posted as "Walden School". Not much of a defense, since he was on the street that runs DIRECTLY past the school, not one that doesn't have direct exposure to the school.
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
imported post

jjcharris wrote:
Unfortunately, since this man was most likely from this area, he knew he was by the school, its clearly posted as "Walden School". Not much of a defense,
But under Hamdan-Vegas, lawful purpose = defense. remmebr that vegas was driving around milwaukee delivering pizzas witha loaded gun in his car - a school zone violation or 2 on every pizza run!
 

jjcharris

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
20
Location
racine, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Mike wrote:
jjcharris wrote:
Unfortunately, since this man was most likely from this area, he knew he was by the school, its clearly posted as "Walden School". Not much of a defense,
But under Hamdan-Vegas, lawful purpose = defense. remmebr that vegas was driving around milwaukee delivering pizzas witha loaded gun in his car - a school zone violation or 2 on every pizza run!
True True, Good Point Sir
 

Pagan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
629
Location
Gloucester, Virginia, USA
imported post

The whole school zone law needs to be done a way with. What if this guy had chosen to obey that law, he may be dead now because a law disarmed him. I am sure glad he had the balls to do what he thought was right, it may help us all.
 

eleuthera

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Messages
106
Location
Minneapolis, MN
imported post

I've got some important questions on the school zone law.
1. Private property is excepted. Does that include stores?
2. How about parking lots?

and this is a little off topic, but it doesn't seem to me that open carrying in a grocery store that sells alcohol is illegal. Thoughts?
 

GJD

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
236
Location
Kenosha, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

I find the Vegas case law quite intriguing. You cant conceal a firearm, that is unless you need to use it to protect yourself - What?!
 

N00blet45

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
475
Location
Walton County, Georgia, ,
imported post

The Racine man involved, who asked not to be named and declined to comment on the alleged robbery attempt when contacted by The Journal Times, was assaulted in the 1100 block of Grand Avenue, which is within 1,000 feet of Walden School, 1012 Center St.

+1
 

smithman

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
718
Location
Waukesha, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

eleuthera wrote:
I've got some important questions on the school zone law.
1. Private property is excepted. Does that include stores?
2. How about parking lots?

and this is a little off topic, but it doesn't seem to me that open carrying in a grocery store that sells alcohol is illegal. Thoughts?
Yes private property is exempt. Parking lots which are part of a store are also private property.

I OC in Pick n Save all the time. The restriction is Class B liquor licenses..and Pick n save does not sell alcohol for consumption on premises.
 

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
imported post

Shotgun wrote:
I believe we've examined the "bicycle" question elsewhere in the forum and concluded it's not a "vehicle" for the purposes of the "vehicle transport" law. But again, it's my fuzzy memory that's telling me this.
340.01(5) "Bicycle" means every vehicle propelled by the feet acting upon pedals and having wheels any 2 of which are not less than 14 inches in diameter.
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
imported post

This incident shows why we need to educate more folks and get them to signt he petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/wi1848oc/petition.htmlto repeal the school zone and car carry bans - forcing citizens to mount a Hamdan-Vegas defense in court is too costly.

And that's why we need to raise funds for radio adds. Total now:

Current Balance
$1,300


--


[align=left]But we still have $190 left in unused matching funds! Please donate today - as soon as we have used up the rest of these matching funds, we will sign a radio contract for for the greater Milwaukee County Metro market - time is of the essence![/align]

[align=left]If you have even just $10 or $25, now would be the time. Give now in a few seconds athttp://www.opencarry.org/carryland.html[/align]
 

BJA

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
503
Location
SOuth Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Mike I hope your able to wait till this weekend, hopefully when friday comes around more people will be able to donate, I hope to donate a little more too then. Back to this case, I just heard the tail end of charlie sykes talking about the open carrier who thwarted teh attack. Does anyone have a link to this show, I have it on live now but that segment is over! :banghead: I hope after work I can find a link to the show this morning so we can all hear it.



Ben
 
Top