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Thread: Interesting range conversations today

  1. #1
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    Went to the range to apply for my CCP class and shoot a few to freshen up. Good thing too, I dropped my gun a week ago and wanted to make sure there was no damage. Not to self, metal holster clips are useless, even going to the car!

    Found out I need 150 rds! Mentioned that on another post. Hopefully there will be some additional defensive pistol instruction, sounds like there is.

    Then she handed me a paper with the required gear and a list of what guns are NOT allowed in their class! That took me off guard. Seems my wife cannot qualify there with the keltec p3at I got her. She told me that she watched one blow apart on a guy at the range. Brand new gun in pieces on the ground. Mine has eaten 75 rds so hopefully none of that for me. That was the only specific gun. The rest were complete manufacturer bans, and a few banned rounds. Obviously 22 lr and 25. Anyone else see this?

    On the way out I looked at a few holsters and still cannot find a decent one for my S&W. Looks like a custom leather holsteris in order. Mentioned I was getting the permit to expand my carry options. And that I had been arguing some with my mom about OC being legal. Before I could finish my sentence both her and the cop that just came in chimed in "Yeah it is." Had a brief conversation with them about OC/CC. I need to give them more business for being aware. It was good to talk to a LEO that knows it and does not go into the, it's not a good idea stuff.

    The gun shop I usually go to argued with me about OC being legal. Well, they did not say anything to me today when I walked in carrying though. Although they did limit my purchase to one box of shells. Guess they are doing their part to slow the ammo hoarding down.



  2. #2
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    quick answer, find a better range to qualify on. Unless you have REAL hot hand loads, a keltec is a safe gun, a hot hand load can kill any gun.

    That said, I went with a private teacher vs a gun range class, shot the 30 rounds the LAW requires, assuming you already know your gun. I qualified with my target model 22, a Ruger Mark III 22/45, though I had taken my red dot off to make it easy to OC in a holster. If the class has those sorts of rules, get a different class.

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    where are you taking this class?

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    I got the feeling the keltec was a combination of an isolated incident they witnessed and the overall bad vibe keltec gives some folks. Like I said mine has worked fine so far!

    I actually got a better feeling about it talking to them than I would have just reading it from a board like this. They seem to be more serious about their standards. If I had to sign my name on someones ability to CC I might get pretty serious. She also told me they were getting lots of folks sign up that did not fit a serious shooter profile. Not trying to be snooty, she said some of the folks would probably never fire the gun after they left the class. They want to be sure you can handle the weapon. They require what most folks consider an adaquate defense round for the qualification too. I know they are all dangerous.But if someone qualifies with a 22 and carries a 45 but does not know the difference in how they handle it might be trouble.

    I'm also hoping I get more pointers than might normally come with the 50 rd class. I have read some posts that suggest that. If not, then I get some range time I normally don't get. Either way I get to put a lot of shots down range, and is that ever a bad thing?

    JDriver, it's a local indoor range. I'll pm you the name.

  5. #5
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    more rounds is not a bad thing. In my case i shoot an 'official' qualification that was all shot with a 22, I did so with a 4 inch group for 30 shots, shooting offhand and weak hand as he asked.

    I then shot 4 other pistols I had with me, 20-50 rounds each. I shoot often, and lots of guns, and I tend to CC and OC often. I feel that a 22 LR is a man stopping round when aimed correctly, and if aimed badly a 500 SW is a failure at the same task. I EDC a 32 keltec, and often also carry a keltec P40 with a 357 sig barrel on it. I think that any 'this round or gun will not work for self defense, do not bring it to my class' is a mistake, and that adding limits above and beyond those imposed by law to how people qualify for a CC permit is WRONG. Can an instructor ASK that you do a basic pistol class before taking the CC permit class if you are new? sure. If they require it, I will go elsewhere.

    We, as gun owners, have an obligation to make it EASY for people to learn about safe gun handling, access ranges, and to help ensure that we do not AD to the numerous handicaps already imposed on legal gun ownership and use/ carry. We need to speak up when we see unsafe actions by other gun owners, and encourage those who do not shoot to come iwth us and get them hooked. I love to get folks who do not own a gun, or do not shoot to come out, and shoot up some of my ammo using my guns while I supervise.

    I am on a high horse in that I feel that CC permit qualification classes are already mandated by law as to length of class time, and every detail of how qualification should be. There is not enough time in a 1 day class to meet the requirements of law for CC training certificates, qualify with you 30 rounds, and also do a defensive shooting class.
    (a) The sheriff shall issue a permit to an applicant if the applicant qualifies under the following criteria:
    (1) The applicant is a citizen of the United States and has been a resident of the State 30 days or longer immediately preceding the filing of the application.
    (2) The applicant is 21 years of age or older.
    (3) The applicant does not suffer from a physical or mental infirmity that prevents the safe handling of a handgun.
    (4) The applicant has successfully completed an approved firearms safety and training course which involves the actual firing of handguns and instruction in the laws of this State governing the carrying of a concealed handgun and the use of deadly force. The North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission shall prepare and publish general guidelines for courses and qualifications of instructors which would satisfy the requirements of this subdivision. An approved course shall be any course which satisfies the requirements of this subdivision and is certified or sponsored by:
    a. The North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission,
    b. The National Rifle Association, or
    c. A law enforcement agency, college, private or public institution or organization, or firearms training school, taught by instructors certified by the North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission or the National Rifle Association.
    Every instructor of an approved course shall file a copy of the firearms course description, outline, and proof of certification annually, or upon modification of the course if more frequently, with the North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission.
    I feel that many CC permit classes spend more time pushing the personal mandates of the teacher, and not enough pushing handgun safety and the RULE of the law

  6. #6
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    chiefjason wrote:
    Went to the range to apply for my CCP class and shoot a few to freshen up. Good thing too, I dropped my gun a week ago and wanted to make sure there was no damage. Not to self, metal holster clips are useless, even going to the car!

    Found out I need 150 rds! Mentioned that on another post. Hopefully there will be some additional defensive pistol instruction, sounds like there is.

    Then she handed me a paper with the required gear and a list of what guns are NOT allowed in their class! That took me off guard. Seems my wife cannot qualify there with the keltec p3at I got her. She told me that she watched one blow apart on a guy at the range. Brand new gun in pieces on the ground. Mine has eaten 75 rds so hopefully none of that for me. That was the only specific gun. The rest were complete manufacturer bans, and a few banned rounds. Obviously 22 lr and 25. Anyone else see this?

    On the way out I looked at a few holsters and still cannot find a decent one for my S&W. Looks like a custom leather holsteris in order. Mentioned I was getting the permit to expand my carry options. And that I had been arguing some with my mom about OC being legal. Before I could finish my sentence both her and the cop that just came in chimed in "Yeah it is." Had a brief conversation with them about OC/CC. I need to give them more business for being aware. It was good to talk to a LEO that knows it and does not go into the, it's not a good idea stuff.

    The gun shop I usually go to argued with me about OC being legal. Well, they did not say anything to me today when I walked in carrying though. Although they did limit my purchase to one box of shells. Guess they are doing their part to slow the ammo hoarding down.

    I would like to comment on the two things in red above....

    1 - I know three people who carry keltec p3at or pf9 in their right front pocket daily and would trust their life with that gun. I have personally passed 200 rounds through the pf9 my friend owns without a hiccough.

    The range that I shoot at sometimes had a S&W J frame blow up on them because they had a squib load (from the manufacturer) and the shooter didn't realize that there was a round in the barrel, so she shot again. BOOM.

    Had this happened at your range, I wonder if they would ban all S&W?

    I would like to hear what other brands they ban??

    2 - I am sorry, but to say you cannot qualify with a 22 or 25 is absurd. There are people out there that carry those calibers.

    That is one place where I believe we need stricter rules. I wish NC required you to qualify with each handgun you carry. That would prevent people from qualifying with a 22lr target pistol and then trying to carry a 50AE.

    Just my thoughts on the subject......

    Either way, carry a gun that you know feeds ammo well and that you would trust with your life. That is why I carry a revolver 90% of the time.

  7. #7
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    I HATE the idea of requiring that you qualify with each gun you wish to carry. This means that instead of a card stating I MAY carry any handgun I wish, I would have a card stating that if / when I purchase a new gun, I have to go get a signoff to be qualified with it.

    If I shoot my P11 in 9mm at the range most times, but carry it in 357 sig or 40, do i need to always shoot it in those calibers at the range? If a pistol owner has a 22 kit on the gun they use, does that mean they cannot also shoot it in 45?

    Do I think that those who shoot should do their best to be competent with every gun they own, and VERY good with any one they want to OC/CC? yes. Do I think it should be law? no.

  8. #8
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    I've personally had no issues shooting my keltec. I would trust it and I would trust it for my wife to carry. If she wants to qualify with it then I'll find another class. My schedule is very tight and I can get into one of their classes. If it's a bust I'll probably be here complaining afterwards.

    I personally would not like the idea of having to qualify with the gun you carry. Mainly because I plan on carrying 2 based on certain issues. May also be purchasing another soon.

    As far as calibers, I think 25 is really pushing the limit of stopping power. I understand a 22 in the hands of a capable shooter is legitimate. It leaves a lot to be desired for me. If the FBI stats are right, then the first 2 shots are what count and I want something capable of making them count.

    I'll get my paperwork out later and post up the manufacturer info.

  9. #9
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    ocgso, here is the info. These are prohibited in the course but not on the range in general.

    derringers, SA revolvers, .22 and .25 calibers

    guns made by highpoint, lorcin, bryco, raven arms, jennings, jimenez, pheonix arms, david arms, and the keltec p3at.

    Not sure of all the particulars on why. Might ask if we have some down time.

  10. #10
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    chiefjason wrote:
    ocgso, here is the info. These are prohibited in the course but not on the range in general.

    derringers, SA revolvers, .22 and .25 calibers

    guns made by highpoint, lorcin, bryco, raven arms, jennings, jimenez, pheonix arms, david arms, and the keltec p3at.

    Not sure of all the particulars on why. Might ask if we have some down time.
    That is really sad considering I personally know someone who open carries a Ruger SA in 45 colt. I will tell you despite the fact it is SA only, he a quick shot and can put all six in the 7 ring of a standard silhouette from 25 yards.

    Having shot a jennings and a bryco before, I imagine the range owner is discouraging people from trusting their lives with these guns. They both have very unreliable safeties, unbearable trigger pulls that make you shoot low, and are jam happy on a good day.

    The keltec still surprises me because I have just not heard those things about them.

    I guess I am different in the fact that if I cannot put an entire box in the silhouette from 7 yards, I will not carry it. I have considered a derringer for really deep concealment situations myself. I would rather have 38 or 45 colt derringer than one of the 5 shot 22 revolvers personally. Less shots, but much more muzzle energy.

    Either way I guess the instructor/range owner can set the rules they choose.....

    I went out this past weekend and "qualified" with my 357 2" snubby. From 10 yards I put all 50 357 bullets in the 7 ring shooting rapid fire DA.:celebrate



  11. #11
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    chiefjason wrote:
    ocgso, here is the info. These are prohibited in the course but not on the range in general.

    derringers, SA revolvers, .22 and .25 calibers

    guns made by highpoint, lorcin, bryco, raven arms, jennings, jimenez, pheonix arms, david arms, and the keltec p3at.

    Not sure of all the particulars on why. Might ask if we have some down time.
    well, every gun on that list except the kel-tec is alont the same lines of guns that were sued because they were "unsafe"... it seems that a teenage babysitter tried to unload a gun while it was pointed at a toddler's head... so CA found the manufacturer liable for the death in a civil suit... if you follow the 4 rules, none of them are unsafe...

    as for the kel-tec, thats a stupid thing... i know someone with over 20,000 rounds through his p3at with no problems... but hey, its their shop... find a new place to take the class... i might recomend the sportsmans lodge in yadkniville... http://thesportsmanslodge.org/

    they wont give you crap for open carry either...

  12. #12
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    Went through the class yesterday. Would have posted last night but after a 14 hour marathon CCP class, well I was tired and needed a shower. We had 15 people in class and 14 on the range. I can tell you this. They flat know their crap! No junk about OC, they only stated they rarely do it.

    We had a short discussion about attracting attention v concealed, and being the first target. But I stood my ground about the target and stated that it was as hard to prove as that OC deters crime. We had 2 instructors in the class portion, Jack has a background in various security and investigation work, Ralphis a sheriff in a local county. They kept it very real about the laws. There was more discussion than "That's just the law." Went through some scenarios. Talked a bit about defense of knives and the offensive benefits to using one. Talked about alternate defense weapons some.

    The range portion was quite slow, but incredible safely done. We had 3 range officers on the line. Went through dry fire training with range commands. Then moved on to live rounds. Spent most of the time shooing 2 rounds one handed at 3 yrds. We had 2 50 rnd sessions.

    I did pick up some good new skills and had to relearn a few things. I was very impressed that the range time centered on building muscle memory and involved usefull real life stuff. We had to fire, return gun to read, sweep the targets while waiting. I'm happy with the extra rounds and the extra time. Time and money well spent.

    We had several problems on the range. One from a lady having trouble with the gun, hand strength issue. And we had a few gun problems. I can see why they want reliable name brand stuff. It really took some time we you all have to stop and wait to clear a jam, etc.

    I'll probably try to get back for some training later if possible. Here's the website, Overall a great experience if you are serious about it, cause these guys deffinately are!

    http://www.springsroadgun.net/

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