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Thread: First Defensive Gun Use since Van Hollen's Opinion

  1. #1
    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    It will be interesting to see how this works out with the school zone issue.


    http://journaltimesonline.com/articl...9957429120.prt
    Jim Burgess
    NRA Lifetime

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    I thought that a bike met the definition of "vehicle" and therefore had to be unloaded/encased. Certainly the person would only be subject to a
    $100 fine per the transportation law if that is correct, since the gun would not be concealed. However the school zone is another question.

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    Wasn't he on a bicycle?

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    This guy needs to be given a medal. This is why OC / CC is important. The four kids trying to assault and rob this guy didn't care if they were 1000 ft. withing a school zone. They didn't care about breaking the law. It appears they cared about only two things:
    1) Attacking someone over whom they thought they had power, and
    2) A single word, "GUN!"

    I can't understand why Doyle and other liberal politicians don't get it. The firearm this guy was carrying probably saved his life. So, instead of focusing on that point, the story quibbles about a 1000 ft. school zone? What are the police doing to find and charge the criminals? Instead, it's more important to see if the guy who survived needs to be charged with a crime?

    Again, thank you Governor Doyle for twice vetoing carrying concealed laws that prompted so much of this OC controversy. Also, thank you WI legislature for not having the courage to clarify these statutes. You've been such a help and support.

    MOLON LABE!

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    Sure sounds like he got jumped. But that's the crucial component of this story. If he really got attacked, then he's just defending himself. I'm glad he got through the attack OK, especially if it was a serious threat. (How old/big where those teenagers?)

    But this incident does point out the difficulty of and ineffectiveness of carry while on a bicycle (or a motorcycle?). Seems like a bad way to do things. The bicyclist was obviously not prepared to defend himself at the beginning of the attack and caught a break when the toughies knocked him down without immediately subduing him with their 4 to 1 advantage.

    It's a good thing those 4 goblins didn't have a gun. The biker would have been toast. Note to self: if on a bicycle and approaching a group of ne'er do wells, do NOT get near them.

    And why isn't this guy's name being made public?





    Biker scares away robbers with gun, legal question remains


    By Marci Laehr Tenuta

    Tuesday, May 5, 2009 9:08 PM CDT
    RACINE — Four teens knocked a 42-year-old Racine man from his bike Friday night. He thought they were going to rob him.

    The man pulled a Smith and Wesson revolver from his side holster, pointed it at the sky and yelled, “Gun!”

    The four suspects ran, and the man flagged down a Racine police officer.

    The incident will perhaps mark the first time a new opinion allowing open carry of firearms is put to the test here, as it conflicts with another state statute that makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1,000 feet of a school, if not on private property.

    The Racine man involved, who asked not to be named and declined to comment on the alleged robbery attempt when contacted by The Journal Times, was assaulted in the 1100 block of Grand Avenue, which is within 1,000 feet of Walden School, 1012 Center St.

    Police did not arrest the man. After he was treated for head and wrist injuries at the scene by Racine rescue, officers escorted the man home and returned his gun to him.

    But that doesn’t mean charges won’t be filed against the man, and police are questioning how such situations should be handled in the future.

    “It’s difficult with the way the laws are written to carry (a gun) and not get into trouble,” said police spokesman Lt. Jim Dobbs.

    He said the new open carry ruling will probably prompt more and more people to wear firearms, but in many places in the city, even stepping off their front porch would mean they are breaking the law.

    “People will break the law inadvertently,” Dobbs said. “We want clarification from the state on what we should be doing.”

    Last month, Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen sent out a memo saying openly wearing a holstered gun is not illegal. While Wisconsin law states a person cannot legally carry a concealed weapon, it does not address carrying a firearm in plain sight.

    The opinion has created many questions, now including the apparent conflict between the existing statute over possessing a firearm near a school.

    Racine County District Attorney Mike Nieskes said Tuesday that he has been briefed on the incident and has talked to the state Attorney General’s Office about it. “We don’t have all the information,” he said. “It’s still under investigation.”

    Bill Cosh, spokesman for the state Department of Justice, said the Attorney General's Office wouldn't comment on specific cases or fact-pattern scenarios.

    According to the police report, just after 10:30 p.m. an officer on patrol saw a bike lying in the roadway in the 1100 block of Grand Avenue. He then saw the victim walk out from between two houses holding a revolver. The man flagged the officer down as he set the gun on the concrete.

    The man told the officer that he had just been assaulted. He said he was openly carrying his black and silver revolver in a side holster while riding his bike west on 12th Street toward Grand Avenue. He saw a group of teens on the corner of 12th and Grand and said, “Bike coming through,” to warn the group.

    As the man turned onto Grand Avenue, he turned around to look at the group and was hit in the back of the head, the police report said. The man was knocked from his bike and hit in the head again.

    The man told police he drew his revolver, pointed it to the sky and yelled out, “Gun!”

    The four suspects ran west on 12th Street and the man went to hide between the two houses. He told police he intended to contact authorities, but then saw the squad car pulling up.

    According to the report, the man believed the teens were trying to rob him. He could not give police a description other than the suspects were four black, male teens.



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    HankT,

    Respectfully, I think you are missing the point.

    First, it doesn't matter how old or big the thugs were. How old or big do you need to be to be a threat? When this guy was attacked, should he have considered their size and age, or the fact that he was in imminent danger?

    What do you mean, "If he really got attacked..."? Think he was making this up?

    Why quibble over the manner of OC, and his preparedness to being attacked? I wouldn't care if he were on a pogo stick. The "goblins" as you call them presented the three criteria I was taught as a LEO that was required in order to use deadly force: opportunity, capability, and intent to commit bodily harm or death.

    Yup, it's a good thing that those four "goblins" didn't have a gun. But, how could they? They were within 1000 feet of a school zone.
    Oh, that's right, they were only "a group of ne'er do wells".

    Wise up. The reason they attacked this guy was because they are criminals and terrorists, not "ne'er do wells". They exert power over perceived weakness. That's what thugs like them do. When the victim produced a firearm, the tables turned. They ran like the cowards they are.

    Think they'll consider such and endeavor more carefully next time?

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    *applause*

    school zone or not.. this guy did what he needed to do to keep himself safe..
    this is a PERFECT example of why carrying in a school zone needs to be legal!

    imagine the story if he was unloaded and cased?

    Guy found dead after being beaten by thugs. gun stolen.

    now these teens have a gun... which im pretty sure will be carried in a school zone and concealed.

    if the law was really there to protect us.. it wouldn't make us such easy targets.

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    assuming the fact of this case are what they were reported to be, this would be a great test case to get the school zone restriction tossed out as unconstitutional.

    Jesus aside, most of us just don't want to go through what we'd have to go through to challenge the constitutional muster of the school zone restriction through the judicial process. Perhaps unwillingly so, (if this guy gets charged) his case presents to use the opportunity to challege the law judicially AS WELL as we continue to challenge it legislatively. It may be in the best interest of all of us to support him as this goes through the courts.

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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    assuming the fact of this case are what they were reported to be, this would be a great test case to get the school zone restriction tossed out as unconstitutional.
    +1

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    ++2

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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    assuming the fact of this case are what they were reported to be, this would be a great test case to get the school zone restriction tossed out as unconstitutional.
    Indeed, this depends on whether or not he is charged by a DA. If the DA really wants to charge here he may offer the guy a plea for a misdemeanor though I have no idea what. I hope the DA shows some discretion...it would depend anyways if he KNEW he was in a school zone or should have known. If he was within a block of a school it will be difficult to claim he had no knowledge but it would depend on if he knew the area and what path he took on his bike. I assume that if he used such a defense as not being aware because of the area or his biking path, the state would have to prove beyond a higher burden that he is guilty.

    I applaud him for carrying and his realizing that it was appropriate in that situation to use his firearm. He would have certainly been in deep $hit with four teens wanting to mug him and steal whatever he had.

    340.01(74)
    "Vehicle" means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains. A snowmobile or electric personal assistive mobility device shall not be considered a vehicle except for purposes made specifically applicable by statute. (This definition as it relates to the vehicle carry restriction depends on the definition of "highway")

    340.01(22)
    "Highway" means all public ways and thoroughfares and bridges on the same. It includes the entire width between the boundary lines of every way open to the use of the public as a matter of right for the purposes of vehicular travel. It includes those roads or driveways in the state, county or municipal parks and in state forests which have been opened to the use of the public for the purpose of vehicular travel and roads or driveways upon the grounds of public schools, as defined in.____. and institutions under the jurisdiction of the county board of supervisors, but does not include private roads or driveways as defined in..____.

    IMO "highway" would not include sidewalks.

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    This case poses a PR difficulty for the DA.

    Whats the message here? Defend yourself from thugs and get charged with a crime?

    Leave the gun at home so the 4 thugs that mugged him KNOW they have vulnerable victims as long as they are close to a school?

    Good grief the school zone law needs to go. It makes NO sense. It puts law abiding citizens in danger. Enables criminals.

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    Jeff Wagner is talking about the Racine case next in the 1 o'clock hour on 620 WTMJ.
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 - "A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but the fool's heart to the left."

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