• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Neighborhood Watch

2a4all

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,846
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

My neighbor decided to establish a Neighborhood Watch, so I attended the initial meeting.

Two cops showed up to talk to us. They said that the Commonwealth holds that you have a duty to retreat, even if someone is trying to break into your home, you should leave via another exit! However, they also said that it was better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

They passed out a flier about Personal Safety (see attached).

It would appear that home defense isn't a high priority.

I will take up the issue of retreating at the next meeting.
 

CRF250rider1000

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
1,440
Location
Herndon, VA & Martinsville, VA
imported post

2a4all wrote:
My neighbor decided to establish a Neighborhood Watch, so I attended the initial meeting.

Two cops showed up to talk to us. They said that the Commonwealth holds that you have a duty to retreat, even if someone is trying to break into your home, you should leave via another exit! However, they also said that it was better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

They passed out a flier about Personal Safety (see attached).

It would appear that home defense isn't a high priority.

I will take up the issue of retreating at the next meeting.
Tell them that the intruder will be retreating when they hear your pump 12ga rack:p
 

Neplusultra

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
2,224
Location
Christiansburg, Virginia, USA
imported post

I think it was user who said VA *is* a stand your ground state, by case law I guess.... (Do not take my word for it!) You just can't use your gun to defend property. Which I take to mean you can stand your ground and if the BG continues to approach you, you are now under physical threat.... But if he very politely starts to cart off your possessions all you can do is get into a fist fight, which if I am correct, then makes impossible for you to later use a gun because you were the one who "escalated" the confrontation....

Input?
 

2a4all

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,846
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

hsmith wrote:
Why is it bad advice?

If you have no means to protect yourself, your best duty is to retreat.
True, but the cop didn't qualify his statement. He said the Commonwealth thinks you have a duty to retreat, even exit your home. In fact, have an escape route planned.

Retreating as a strategy (as opposed to a duty) wasn't presented.
 

hsmith

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
1,687
Location
Virginia USA, ,
imported post

2a4all wrote:
hsmith wrote:
Why is it bad advice?

If you have no means to protect yourself, your best duty is to retreat.
True, but the cop didn't qualify his statement. He said the Commonwealth thinks you have a duty to retreat, even exit your home. In fact, have an escape route planned.

Retreating as a strategy (as opposed to a duty) wasn't presented.
understood :) and I agree with you
 

LEO 229

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
7,606
Location
USA
imported post

2a4all wrote:
My neighbor decided to establish a Neighborhood Watch, so I attended the initial meeting.

Two cops showed up to talk to us. They said that the Commonwealth holds that you have a duty to retreat, even if someone is trying to break into your home, you should leave via another exit! However, they also said that it was better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

They passed out a flier about Personal Safety (see attached).

It would appear that home defense isn't a high priority.

I will take up the issue of retreating at the next meeting.
While I understand your frustration.... many agencies are not going to advise you to stay and fight where you or someone else could be killed.

Think about it this way... If you can get away from the danger.. and live.... Why would you need to shoot and kill another human who may not want to do anything more than steal your property?

Most often, burglaries of occupied dwellings do not result in death of the home owner. The thief wants a purse or wallet... and then get out of there!!

Shooting him may "teach him a lesson" but is it actually necessary?

Then you have to consider... if the police promote shooting people that enter your home... what happens when your kid comes home from college and you did not expect him. You see a silhouette and you shoot thinking it is a burglar!!!
 

Chaingun81

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
581
Location
Centreville, Virginia, USA
imported post

LEO 229 wrote:
2a4all wrote:
My neighbor decided to establish a Neighborhood Watch, so I attended the initial meeting.

Two cops showed up to talk to us. They said that the Commonwealth holds that you have a duty to retreat, even if someone is trying to break into your home, you should leave via another exit! However, they also said that it was better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

They passed out a flier about Personal Safety (see attached).

It would appear that home defense isn't a high priority.

I will take up the issue of retreating at the next meeting.
While I understand your frustration.... many agencies are not going to advise you to stay and fight where you or someone else could be killed.

Think about it this way... If you can get away from the danger.. and live.... Why would you need to shoot and kill another human who may not want to do anything more than steal your property?

Most often, burglaries of occupied dwellings do not result in death of the home owner. The thief wants a purse or wallet... and then get out of there!!

Shooting him may "teach him a lesson" but is it actually necessary?

Then you have to consider... if the police promote shooting people that enter your home... what happens when your kid comes home from college and you did not expect him. You see a silhouette and you shoot thinking it is a burglar!!!

I understand that police would not advise armed confrontation even when legal at least for liability purposes. But I don't think they should say things like "you have a duty to retreat, even in your own home" while there is no statue supporting that and in fact case law says the opposite (correct me if I'm wrong). I think it would be more professional for them to say something like "you have a right to use deadly force if you feel your life is in danger, however we advise you to avoid it at all costs unless absolutely necessary in order to avoid possible legal problems and all dangers associated with brining in a deadly force into a confrontation". Just my 2 cents.

As a side note - I haven't heard of any efforts to pass Castle Doctrine statue in VA. Is VCDL doing anything about it? I'd like to see something Texas style where a law abiding person can defend him/herself to a large extent as long as he is not the one at fault.
 

DHCruiser

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
199
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Our case law is already good on the ability to defend ourselves. A Castle Doctrine law could easily foul that up. I'm more interested in a "Civil liability protection law" (can't be sued unless proven you violated a law first) and a right to carry my firearm in my car to and from work law.
 

curtiswr

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,133
Location
Richmond, VA, ,
imported post

2a4all wrote:
even if someone is trying to break into your home, you should leave via another exit!

Leave my home!? Surrender my domicile, my fort, my castle, my humble abode, my... you get it by now don't you? What idiot figured that one out? :banghead:

If someone breaks in here, they will be staring down a barrel. Whether they end up in a squad car, running away with **** in their pants, or in an ambulance is up to them.
 

Jonesy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
416
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, USA
imported post

The police have misinformed you on the law in the Commonwealth.There is no duty to retreat if you are free from fault in bringing on thedifficulty.It is only when you have some fault in bringing on the difficulty that you have a duty to retreat, announce a desire for peace, and then use force only out of necessity. Some fault can be something like arguing with someone.

Below is some case law for review. I believe this is really important to know for gun owners in Virginia. Let me know if anyone wants the entire cases, I can post.

From Gilbert v. Com., 506 S.E.2d 543, 28 Va.App. 466 (Va. App., 1998)

An accused who claims self-defense to a charge of homicide "implicitly admits the killing was intentional and assumes the burden of introducing evidence of justification or excuse that raises a reasonable doubt in the mind [] of the [trier of fact]." McGhee v. Commonwealth, 219 Va. 560, 562, 248 S.E.2d 808, 810 (1978). The Supreme Court summarized the principles of self-defense by noting the following:

The law of self-defense is the law of necessity.... [A] defendant must reasonably fear death or serious bodily harm to himself at the hands of his victim. It is not essential to the right of self-defense that the danger should in fact exist. If it reasonably appears to a defendant that the danger exists, he has the right to defend against it to the same extent, and under the same rules, as would obtain in case the danger is real. A defendant may always act upon reasonable appearance of danger, and whether the danger is reasonably apparent is always to be determined from the viewpoint of the defendant at the time he acted. These ancient and well-established principles ... emphasize the subjective nature of the defense, and why it is an affirmative one.

The distinction between justifiable and excusable self-defense claims is well established. "Justifiable homicide in self-defense occurs where a person, without any fault on his part in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, kills another under reasonable apprehension of death or great bodily harm to himself." Bailey v. Commonwealth, 200 Va. 92, 96, 104 S.E.2d 28, 31 (1958). When the accused is free from fault in bringing on the fray, the accused "need not [highlight= #b5d0e0]retreat, but is permitted to stand his [or her] ground and repel the attack by force, including deadly force, if it is necessary." Foote v. Commonwealth, 11 Va.App. 61, 67, 396 S.E.2d 851, 855 (1990).

[28 Va.App. 473] "Excusable homicide in self-defense occurs where the accused, although in some fault in the first instance in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, when attacked retreats as far as possible, announces his desire for peace, and kills his adversary from a reasonably apparent necessity to preserve his own life or save himself from great bodily harm." Bailey, 200 Va. at 96, 104 S.E.2d at 31. If a killing is proved to be either justifiable or excusable, the accused must be acquitted. Id."

From Foote v. Com., 396 S.E.2d 851, 11 Va.App. 61 (Va. App., 1990)

In Virginia, homicide (or attempted homicide) in self-defense is classified either as justifiable or excusable. Justifiable self-defense arises when the defendant is completely without fault. Perkins v. Commonwealth, 186 Va. 867, 876, 44 S.E.2d 426, 430 (1947). In such a case, the defendant need not [highlight= #b5d0e0]retreat, but is permitted to stand his ground and repel the attack by force, including deadly force, if it is necessary. McCoy v. Commonwealth, 125 Va. 771, 775, 99 S.E. 644, 645 (1919). Excusable self-defense arises when the defendant, who was at some fault in precipitating the [11 Va.App. 68] difficulty, abandons the fight and retreats as far as he safely can before he attempts to repel the attack. Id. at 776, 99 S.E. at 646.
 

LEO 229

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
7,606
Location
USA
imported post

Chaingun81 wrote:
I understand that police would not advise armed confrontation even when legal at least for liability purposes. But I don't think they should say things like "you have a duty to retreat, even in your own home" while there is no statue supporting that and in fact case law says the opposite (correct me if I'm wrong). I think it would be more professional for them to say something like "you have a right to use deadly force if you feel your life is in danger, however we advise you to avoid it at all costs unless absolutely necessary in order to avoid possible legal problems and all dangers associated with brining in a deadly force into a confrontation". Just my 2 cents.

As a side note - I haven't heard of any efforts to pass Castle Doctrine statue in VA. Is VCDL doing anything about it? I'd like to see something Texas style where a law abiding person can defend him/herself to a large extent as long as he is not the one at fault.
I am not sure how it makes them more "professional" to say one thing versus another.

They are presenting information in a way to solicit a certain action. I can encourage you to stay and defend your house or escape and protect your life.

A house and property can be replaced.. a life cannot.

I have long believed that you should escape if you can and kill only as a last resort.

But other members here seem trigger happy to stay and protect the house and blow people away with a shotgun. :uhoh:

To me.. it is like standing in the path of a speeding car. I can move out of the way and live... or shoot at the driver and hope to make him stop. I guess if you feel like standing your ground and showing people you will not move and nobody can make you... you can do that and maybe get ran over.
 

HardChrome

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
236
Location
Newport News, VA, ,
imported post

My neighborhood has a Neighborhood Watch as well but I use it differently. I call the rep AFTER I call the police rather than before.

I had a prowler situation just last night. A neighbor knocked on my door to tell me that someone was sitting in my yard and the police were on the way.

By the time I got out the door with my pistol and a flashlight, the first officer was just pulling up. Two more showed up and none said anything about the gun on my hip and neither did any of the several neighbors who were out by then.

Turned out to be a kid waiting for his girlfriend but it was good to see such a good response by the police.

I'm not going to rely on some neighbor to translate my call to the police while I wait by the phone.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

DHCruiser wrote:
Our case law is already good on the ability to defend ourselves. A Castle Doctrine law could easily foul that up. I'm more interested in a "Civil liability protection law" (can't be sued unless proven you violated a law first) and a right to carry my firearm in my car to and from work law.
One advantage of a genuine Castle Doctrine law would be that it would removeor knock a big hole inthe "affirmative defense" aspect of justifiable homicide.

Meaning, under current VA case law, as I understand it, if you are tried for, say, manslaughter in connnection with defending your life, the burden is on you to prove it was necessary self-defense. As opposed to the government having to prove you done manslaughter. Basically, since you are claiming self-defense, you already admitted you made the live body dead. Now you gotta prove it wasn't a crime by proving it was self-defense.

As I understand it, Castle Doctrine means you are statutorily authorized to use lethal force whereever the statute allows, and thus cannot be charged in the first place.

Of course the actual text of the Castle law varies from state to state. Some have loopholes and so forth such that a prosecutor could still charge someone if he wanted to twist the spirit orletter of the statute. That is to say the protection from prosecution is not air-tight.
 

LEO 229

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
7,606
Location
USA
imported post

HardChrome wrote:
My neighborhood has a Neighborhood Watch as well but I use it differently. I call the rep AFTER I call the police rather than before.

I had a prowler situation just last night. A neighbor knocked on my door to tell me that someone was sitting in my yard and the police were on the way.

By the time I got out the door with my pistol and a flashlight, the first officer was just pulling up. Two more showed up and none said anything about the gun on my hip and neither did any of the several neighbors who were out by then.

Turned out to be a kid waiting for his girlfriend but it was good to see such a good response by the police.

I'm not going to rely on some neighbor to translate my call to the police while I wait by the phone.
Someone sitting in your yard is not actually a "prowler".

Unless he is walking around your house checking doors and windows looking inside it is a suspicious person.

;)
 

HardChrome

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
236
Location
Newport News, VA, ,
imported post

LEO 229 wrote:
HardChrome wrote:
My neighborhood has a Neighborhood Watch as well but I use it differently. I call the rep AFTER I call the police rather than before.

I had a prowler situation just last night. A neighbor knocked on my door to tell me that someone was sitting in my yard and the police were on the way.

By the time I got out the door with my pistol and a flashlight, the first officer was just pulling up. Two more showed up and none said anything about the gun on my hip and neither did any of the several neighbors who were out by then.

Turned out to be a kid waiting for his girlfriend but it was good to see such a good response by the police.

I'm not going to rely on some neighbor to translate my call to the police while I wait by the phone.
Someone sitting in your yard is not actually a "prowler".

Unless he is walking around your house checking doors and windows looking inside it is a suspicious person.

;)
I left some of the details out. He was described to me as a prowler and he was seen walking in my yard in addition to sitting behind my car. I didn't make the call to the police. I just came outside to check around but this is a situation where I would prefer to work with the police directly rather than through a neighborhood rep. I do agree however that the rep should be filled in afterwards so he can provide that info to the officer handling our neighborhood.
 
Top