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Thread: A Peace Officer's Perspective

  1. #1
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    Found this while browsing the internet.

    OPEN CARRY- http://roavapd.blogspot.com/2009/02/open-carry.html
    Open carry is legal in Virginia. I haven't seen much of it. There are restrictions on where you can possess firearms in Virginia, open or concealed, you should know these.

    My reaction while on duty would be based on the context. In the high crime, high drug areas where I work, if I saw someone open carrying a gun I would stop and identify them. We have too many shots fired calls in some areas to ignore anyone with a gun.

    If I saw some guy planting a tree in his yard, or eating dinner in a restaurant while open carrying I wouldn't blink.

    I think open carry can help demystify some of the negative perceptions people have of guns. Most of the people around us when we are carry concealed have no idea they are being protected. They also don't realize there's a gun there and it's not just "going off" and killing everyone. If they see it when you open carry they will realize that most gun owners aren't mass murderers.

    Tactically though I don't like open carry. If you walk into 7-11 the guy standing in line may be planning on robbing the place. With you there he knows he needs to shoot you first and remove you from the equation. He's got the drop on you and surprise is on his side. Or maybe he wants to disarm you. Even with Level 3 retention holsters (lots of safeties in the holster to hold onto the gun) some cops get disarmed every year, there's just no way to guarantee not being disarmed. Concealed carry is much safer in this regard. If you do it right, nobody knows you have it. You have the element of surprise on your side if anything breaks sideways on you.

    In closing, be mindful of your surroundings when you do open carry. Some cops may be very curious about you, especially depending on where you are. Watch your back in places with a high likelihood of being robbed.

    This cop has a great outlook for OC’ers, although I do believe he’s wrong about an open carried handgun making you a target to criminals a lot of what he says makes sense.

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    One question only - Is there a documented case of a LEO in uniform or plain clothes with BADGE & WEAPON openly displayed ever being the target of a personal robbery?

    That's why WE open carry. A COP's perspectivemay offer some insight, butdoes not change the fact that open carry is exactly what the 2A and respective States' right to keep & bear arms is all about. LEO'S are going to have to get used to seeing armed citizens. They had their chance to "civilize" our society. Now it's the citizen's turn.



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    Kudos to you, sir.

    I see your point with the tactical nature of OC, and it is a distinct possibility. There is inherent risk in everything we do, but it may be the case that said robber is just as likely to change his mind, and rob another store, or decide his efforts are not worth the risk if he sees armed people around.

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    Well said, however...

    If you walk into 7-11 the guy standing in line may be planning on robbing the place. With you there he knows he needs to shoot you first and remove you from the equation. He's got the drop on you and surprise is on his side.
    There are no reports of this actually happening, instead there is case after case after case, reported on these forums of, what appears to be, the prelude to a robbery in which the BG appears to change his mind and leave the area.
    Your point about the context is well taken.

    If I saw some guy planting a tree in his yard, or eating dinner in a restaurant while open carrying I wouldn't blink.
    My most recent "interaction" with the police was fairly calm and low-key simply because I was pushing a shopping cart full of groceries. I doubt even the most cynical among them would think that it was perfectly reasonable for an armed robber to wear his gun on his belt and go grocery shopping before heading for the crime scene.

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    Like SANDCREEK said, Cops are never targets of robberies. Why? They have guns. Guns scare bad guys away.

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    Word. The power and the peace is inherent in the people.

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    In 48 states many people have the option of concealed-carry, great!
    Open-Carry is something special to the residents of, and people visiting the state of Wisconsin, All we have is Open-Carry. there is no other legal option of how to carry, you carry openly or you do not carry at all!

    So that basically equates to, you have the ability to defend yourself, or you do not!

    Carry On!

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    In the high crime, high drug areas where I work, if I saw someone open carrying a gun I would stop and identify them.

    And what would be your probable cause?



    Most of the people around us when we are carry concealed have no idea they are being protected.
    Neither does the thug behind you who’s thinking of jacking your wallet.





    If they see it when you open carry they will realize that most gun owners aren't mass murderers.
    MOST !?!? I think a different word is suited for that statement. Being that only a select HANDFUL of individuals actually have committed mass murder with handguns.




    You have the element of surprise on your side if anything breaks sideways on you.
    No thanks, I’d prefer the presence of my gun to deter/strike fear into criminals rather than
    WAIT UNTIL SOMEONE STARTS SHOOTING PEOPLE !



    OC = Active
    CC = Passive





    Tactically though I don't like open carry. If you walk into 7-11 the guy standing in line may be planning on robbing the place. With you there he knows he needs to shoot you first and remove you from the equation.
    I know this is REALLY easy to say. We hear it ALL THE TIME. Yet it’s just so hard to prove. In fact it’s so hard to prve that you might just ignore this part of my post b/c like everyone else here, we would all like to be shown just ONE source of information, where a Citizen OC’er was attacked first b/c his weapon made him a threat to a successful criminal action.

    criket…criket…criket…





    Cheers, good to see another LEO make an attempt to understand the 2nd Amendment.









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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    A side note: we haven't had "peace" officers for decades. What we have today are
    "law enforcement" officers.
    HUGE difference.
    I'd venture to say a century.





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    Dustin wrote:
    In the high crime, high drug areas where I work, if I saw someone open carrying a gun I would stop and identify them.

    And what would be your probable cause?
    i some areas, including my state (MN), anyone who is carrying must produce their permit and ID at the request of a LEO. that said, i have never been asked for my permit, even while being pulled over while OCing.

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    Ciffer wrote:
    must produce their permit and ID at the request of a LEO.
    So if your walking in your local grocery store, and an LEO stops and ask you for your ID, you have to supply it ?

    This isn't so in LA. Only if your Driving a vehicle do you have to supply a Drivers License when asked.

    If a cop ask me for ID outside my vehicle, oh well.

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    Statesman wrote:
    Kudos to you, sir.

    I see your point with the tactical nature of OC, and it is a distinct possibility. There is inherent risk in everything we do, but it may be the case that said robber is just as likely to change his mind, and rob another store, or decide his efforts are not worth the risk if he sees armed people around.
    I agree with this view, as it is pretty logical. The robber's choices narrow down to a) plunge ahead (which means take out the most salient threat) or b) split and go for a softer target. It is highly unlikely that b) will get chosen 100% of the time. And a robber may have gotten in too far into the process to back out. Or, he's desperate for the $$$ and just a murderous kind of guy, so he just starts shooting...

    If I were a gun-armed bank robber and I needed to go forward with a robbery and I saw an OCer, I would shoot him first. It's instantly comprehensible that he is a dangerous threat to my mission. He got to go.


    hansolo wrote:
    Like SANDCREEK said, Cops are never targets of robberies. Why? They have guns. Guns scare bad guys away.
    I suggest your argument is wrong on two counts. It's not entirely true. The conceptualization is not complete. The main reason that individual and vulnerable cops are not robbed (or ambushed, or murdered) is that it is well known what will happen. They will come git you. And "they" is a LOT of badges.

    Conceptually, it is very doable to pick off an individual officer. You just need an ambush or a few guys with guns. Or a rifle. Individual LEOs have ALWAYS been vulnerable to an overpowering attack. But the blowback is sure, swift and massive.

    LEO 229, BTW, once told a story about an off-dutyuniformedofficer who was robbed at gunpoint. "Never" is a tough word to use. It is always used loosely.

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    I'd like to see data where there is proof of LEO's being the target of a robbery....because they are known LEO's and not just citizens....

    I would also suggest that Hank is partially correct. "They" will try to come and get you for sure......will "they" succeed is the bigger question? The margin of error for some I think is enough to attempttargeting a LEO for a robbery.

    Ihaven't done the research (nor will I) but I don't think the data exists to support the position that

    1) Criminals purposefully target LEO's in AND out of uniform

    2) Those that do are always caught

    3) That criminals notice OC'ers (LEO or otherwise) >75% during the commission of a crime (i.e. the bad dudes cased the joint prior to going in)

    Now, given the scenario by the OP, "If you walk into 7-11 the guy standing in line may be planning on robbing the place. With you there he knows he needs to shoot you first..."

    Chester Rapsheethas to actually "see" your weapon....given all known conditions of the OP's scenario, that may never happen unless the scenario is better defined. Given the information provided, I'd bet a year of Hank T's income that Chester would never see your weapon....for Chester to know your there, all he has to do is "hear" the door open to the store, not actually obtain any sort of visual confirmation...unless Chester is standing in line, facing the door....to many unknowns.

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    Dustin wrote:
    Ciffer wrote:
    must produce their permit and ID at the request of a LEO.
    So if your walking in your local grocery store, and an LEO stops and ask you for your ID, you have to supply it ?

    This isn't so in LA. Only if your Driving a vehicle do you have to supply a Drivers License when asked.

    If a cop ask me for ID outside my vehicle, oh well.
    they can ask for permit (which is tied to ID), and if you are carrying, you must provide it.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    A side note: we haven't had "peace" officers for decades. What we have today are
    "law enforcement" officers.
    HUGE difference.
    FYI

    The New York State Criminal Procedure Law identifies two classes of LEO's

    Peace Officer and Police Officer, each with slightly different powers of arrest.



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    Dustin:

    Here in tennessee it is against the law to go armed. Full stop. It is a defense to that law if you have a permit. Therefore, here in TN carrying a handgun is PC in and of itself for a policeman to stop you and ask you to produce your permit. If you cannot (or will not) produce your permit you will be arrested, and it is a fully lawful stop under the current laws of the state. Remember that if you ever visit.



    Regards,

    Pol

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    Pol Mordreth wrote:
    Dustin:

    Here in tennessee it is against the law to go armed. Full stop. It is a defense to that law if you have a permit. Therefore, here in TN carrying a handgun is PC in and of itself for a policeman to stop you and ask you to produce your permit. If you cannot (or will not) produce your permit you will be arrested, and it is a fully lawful stop under the current laws of the state. Remember that if you ever visit.



    Regards,

    Pol
    Exercising a Constitutional right is not PC for a stop.

    You need a permit to OC in Tennessee? I thought no permit was needed? Sounds like a nice 14th Amendment suit is in Tennessee's future...

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    Look at the "Maps" on OCDO Home Page. All Green States require a permit/license to OC.

    Maps:http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html

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    BALLS!

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    That is inhumane!

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    Dustin wrote:
    In the high crime, high drug areas where I work, if I saw someone open carrying a gun I would stop and identify them.

    And what would be your probable cause?

    As the OP had already said it would be situation based. Same reason the officer would stop the car full of college students cruising through a high crime area (aka known for drug sales.) An officer stopping and asking some questions isn't an inherently bad thing. If you look out of place in the area then its should be no shock when someone asks you whats up.

    Dustin are you hanging out with pimps and drug dealers?

    The areas outlined in the OP would indicate that the average OCer in that area would probably be out of place, lost or maybe even just had his car stolen. Police don't require probable cause to talk to everyone they encounter. a squad car pulling up and asking you if everything is ok is not a breach of your rights. Your reaction to the officers could lead to probable cause. For this reason be polite, be patient, and don't lie.

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    Double post

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    Gotta love Virginia ! Over 18 yo, not a convicted felon, no serious mental problems & no domestic violence - good to OC without a permit.

    In fact the only way we can presently carry in an establishment selling alcohol for on premises consumption is to OC.

    No stop and ID law on foot - judge me by my actions not my tools! Driving I must produce driver's license on demand but not permit - I may decide to do so as a courtesy but it is not a requirement.

    BTW - when is the last time you saw a BG OCing with a holster? Know why not, because LEOs know who the felons are!

    I OC 24/7 as long as I am awake - have done so for more years than most here have lived - never been mugged, robbed, raped or assaulted. Wonder why?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    I OC 24/7 as long as I am awake - have done so for more years than most here have lived - never been mugged, robbed, raped or assaulted. Wonder why?

    Yata hey
    Well can't speak to the mugged robbed or assaulted but as far as raped maybe the BG don't find you cute

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    Tiny85 wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    I OC 24/7 as long as I am awake - have done so for more years than most here have lived - never been mugged, robbed, raped or assaulted. Wonder why?

    Yata hey
    Well can't speak to the mugged robbed or assaulted but as far as raped maybe the BG don't find you cute
    Gf says my .40 cal Firestar is cute - does that count?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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