hansolo
Regular Member
imported post
That is inhumane!
That is inhumane!
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A Peace Officer's Perspective
- Thread starter FunkTrooper
- Start date
Tiny85
Regular Member
imported post
Dustin wrote:
Dustin are you hanging out with pimps and drug dealers? :lol:
The areas outlined in the OP would indicate that the average OCer in that area would probably be out of place, lost or maybe even just had his car stolen. Police don't require probable cause to talk to everyone they encounter. a squad car pulling up and asking you if everything is ok is not a breach of your rights. Your reaction to the officers could lead to probable cause. For this reason be polite, be patient, and don't lie.
Dustin wrote:
As the OP had already said it would be situation based. Same reason the officer would stop the car full of college students cruising through a high crime area (aka known for drug sales.) An officer stopping and asking some questions isn't an inherently bad thing. If you look out of place in the area then its should be no shock when someone asks you whats up.
Dustin are you hanging out with pimps and drug dealers? :lol:
The areas outlined in the OP would indicate that the average OCer in that area would probably be out of place, lost or maybe even just had his car stolen. Police don't require probable cause to talk to everyone they encounter. a squad car pulling up and asking you if everything is ok is not a breach of your rights. Your reaction to the officers could lead to probable cause. For this reason be polite, be patient, and don't lie.
Tiny85
Regular Member
imported post
Double post :banghead:
Double post :banghead:
imported post
Gotta love Virginia ! Over 18 yo, not a convicted felon, no serious mental problems & no domestic violence - good to OC without a permit.
In fact the only way we can presently carry in an establishment selling alcohol for on premises consumption is to OC.
No stop and ID law on foot - judge me by my actions not my tools! Driving I must produce driver's license on demand but not permit - I may decide to do so as a courtesy but it is not a requirement.
BTW - when is the last time you saw a BG OCing with a holster? Know why not, because LEOs know who the felons are!
I OC 24/7 as long as I am awake - have done so for more years than most here have lived - never been mugged, robbed, raped or assaulted. Wonder why?
Yata hey
Gotta love Virginia ! Over 18 yo, not a convicted felon, no serious mental problems & no domestic violence - good to OC without a permit.
In fact the only way we can presently carry in an establishment selling alcohol for on premises consumption is to OC.
No stop and ID law on foot - judge me by my actions not my tools! Driving I must produce driver's license on demand but not permit - I may decide to do so as a courtesy but it is not a requirement.
BTW - when is the last time you saw a BG OCing with a holster? Know why not, because LEOs know who the felons are!
I OC 24/7 as long as I am awake - have done so for more years than most here have lived - never been mugged, robbed, raped or assaulted. Wonder why?
Yata hey
Tiny85
Regular Member
imported post
Grapeshot wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
Well can't speak to the mugged robbed or assaulted but as far as raped maybe the BG don't find you cute :lol::lol::lol:
Tiny85
Regular Member
imported post
Grapeshot wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
If its good enough for her then then it doesn't matter how cute the rapists think you are :lol:Tiny85 wrote:Gf says my .40 cal Firestar is cute - does that count?
Yata hey
RoanokeCop
New member
imported post
I'm the author of the original article about open carry that got linked here. I appreciate many of the comments here, I am a big fan of the 2nd Amendment. Gun law is something I've gotten very little training on. Mostly because the incredibly vast majority of guns we come into contact with are stolen or possessed by felons. No brainer, seize it and file charges. What I've learned has been through my own research.
The rare times I've come across legal guns have usually been on traffic stops. When I've been informed of the permit and location of the weapon (even if it's at home) up front, I've never written a ticket. I'm appreciative when folks consider my mindset and try to help me out. I return that favor when I can.
There has also been several times in my career that someone has been carrying concealed and not properly permitted for it. Both of those cases involved someone who was not involved with crime and had no other unlawful purpose. I exercised my discretion to advise and release rather than file charges. I honestly would have no problem with a system like Vermont. Why worry if there is no other criminal activity happening?
I try to help out the new guys as much as possible too, clarifying gun laws. It drives me nuts when a cop gets their hands on a lawfully possessed gun and removes all the rounds or some other stupidity.
Just to clarify a couple issues. Cops are OC on duty. While we may not be robbed in the sense of a mugging, we do face being disarmed in the course of dealing with criminals. A good percentage of cops murdered every year are killed with their own gun. Despite the Level 2 or 3 retention holster and specific training on weapon retention in a fight, we do get disarmed and shot. That's why I'm not a fan of OC. I realize guys like Grapeshot have never had a problem. Cops are trained to plan for the worst case scenario so I'm stuck on that and don't like it. That doesn't mean I think it's wrong or should be illegal, I don't. It works for you, great. I just don't like it and won't do it outside of work. Cops are specifically targeted at work and at home. There are news stories of cops being ambushed in their driveway and some gangs have attempted home invasions on cops. Granted it is rare, but it is a concern and something we have to be prepared for.
Probable cause is needed to make an arrest, reasonable suspicion is needed for investigatory detention. Someone walking in a high crime area, where we have lots of drug dealing and shootings, while carrying a gun in the open will be stopped and identified. These are the types of areas though that the people on a board like this aren't hanging out in unless you also have a crack cocaine habit. You aren't the people the cops are worried about. That being said, someone pointed out that thugs aren't going to open carry in these areas anyway. Probably right, I have yet to see OC in these areas. Thugs know it's an invitation to get stopped, they know the gun isn't legal, and they also know if they are convicted felons as well. Besides, it's much cooler to stuff it down the front of your waist band, pointing it at your junk. (I have a post on gun safety where a guy shot one of his testicles doing that.)
That doesn't mean though that some cops won't stop you if they see you in Wally World while strapped legally.
I have a suggestion for that. Use the opportunity to educate the cop. If you are polite and cooperative it will give you the chance to educate the officer and refer them to great websites like opencarry.org where they can learn more. I can tell you 2nd Amendment education is at best a blip on the radar in the academy (i.e. "Felons with guns go to jail, next topic...")
Most of the cops I work with are avid hunters and outdoorsmen who own lots of guns. They have no animosity towards the legal public but they have no real education or experience dealing with this aspect of the law. You can use the opportunity to educate that officer and help make them a better cop. The vast majority will personally agree with you, and certainly none of us desire to run afoul of the law, that's rough on the career.
We deal with the shallow end of the gene pool or a regular basis, and we get lots of rotten attitude from them. If you give a cop some of the Internet Cop Hater attitude I get on my site from my gun posts, you will only make an enemy of the cause.
I appreciate the honesty and I hope you've learned from me as I have from you.
http://roavapd.blogspot.com/
I'm the author of the original article about open carry that got linked here. I appreciate many of the comments here, I am a big fan of the 2nd Amendment. Gun law is something I've gotten very little training on. Mostly because the incredibly vast majority of guns we come into contact with are stolen or possessed by felons. No brainer, seize it and file charges. What I've learned has been through my own research.
The rare times I've come across legal guns have usually been on traffic stops. When I've been informed of the permit and location of the weapon (even if it's at home) up front, I've never written a ticket. I'm appreciative when folks consider my mindset and try to help me out. I return that favor when I can.
There has also been several times in my career that someone has been carrying concealed and not properly permitted for it. Both of those cases involved someone who was not involved with crime and had no other unlawful purpose. I exercised my discretion to advise and release rather than file charges. I honestly would have no problem with a system like Vermont. Why worry if there is no other criminal activity happening?
I try to help out the new guys as much as possible too, clarifying gun laws. It drives me nuts when a cop gets their hands on a lawfully possessed gun and removes all the rounds or some other stupidity.
Just to clarify a couple issues. Cops are OC on duty. While we may not be robbed in the sense of a mugging, we do face being disarmed in the course of dealing with criminals. A good percentage of cops murdered every year are killed with their own gun. Despite the Level 2 or 3 retention holster and specific training on weapon retention in a fight, we do get disarmed and shot. That's why I'm not a fan of OC. I realize guys like Grapeshot have never had a problem. Cops are trained to plan for the worst case scenario so I'm stuck on that and don't like it. That doesn't mean I think it's wrong or should be illegal, I don't. It works for you, great. I just don't like it and won't do it outside of work. Cops are specifically targeted at work and at home. There are news stories of cops being ambushed in their driveway and some gangs have attempted home invasions on cops. Granted it is rare, but it is a concern and something we have to be prepared for.
Probable cause is needed to make an arrest, reasonable suspicion is needed for investigatory detention. Someone walking in a high crime area, where we have lots of drug dealing and shootings, while carrying a gun in the open will be stopped and identified. These are the types of areas though that the people on a board like this aren't hanging out in unless you also have a crack cocaine habit. You aren't the people the cops are worried about. That being said, someone pointed out that thugs aren't going to open carry in these areas anyway. Probably right, I have yet to see OC in these areas. Thugs know it's an invitation to get stopped, they know the gun isn't legal, and they also know if they are convicted felons as well. Besides, it's much cooler to stuff it down the front of your waist band, pointing it at your junk. (I have a post on gun safety where a guy shot one of his testicles doing that.)
That doesn't mean though that some cops won't stop you if they see you in Wally World while strapped legally.
I have a suggestion for that. Use the opportunity to educate the cop. If you are polite and cooperative it will give you the chance to educate the officer and refer them to great websites like opencarry.org where they can learn more. I can tell you 2nd Amendment education is at best a blip on the radar in the academy (i.e. "Felons with guns go to jail, next topic...")
Most of the cops I work with are avid hunters and outdoorsmen who own lots of guns. They have no animosity towards the legal public but they have no real education or experience dealing with this aspect of the law. You can use the opportunity to educate that officer and help make them a better cop. The vast majority will personally agree with you, and certainly none of us desire to run afoul of the law, that's rough on the career.
We deal with the shallow end of the gene pool or a regular basis, and we get lots of rotten attitude from them. If you give a cop some of the Internet Cop Hater attitude I get on my site from my gun posts, you will only make an enemy of the cause.
I appreciate the honesty and I hope you've learned from me as I have from you.
http://roavapd.blogspot.com/
spyderdude
Regular Member
imported post
Roanoke Cop,
Thank you for your kind words regarding open carry, we certainly need more LEOs like you. I can understand that officers must respond to MWAG calls, because as you said, the majority of gun calls involve felons with illegal guns. I would have no problem with being stopped for open carrying as long as I am treated with respect, and not thrown on the hood of the patrol car like I just committed a crime. Unfortunately that depends on the responding officer and what they think the law is.
I just like to think about what African Americans went through during the Civil Rights movement. They were constantly harassed and mistreated, but they continued to fight. Eventually they were heard, and eventually got full rights as all Americans should. I think the only thing we can do is keep fighting the good fight and we too will be heard.
Roanoke Cop,
Thank you for your kind words regarding open carry, we certainly need more LEOs like you. I can understand that officers must respond to MWAG calls, because as you said, the majority of gun calls involve felons with illegal guns. I would have no problem with being stopped for open carrying as long as I am treated with respect, and not thrown on the hood of the patrol car like I just committed a crime. Unfortunately that depends on the responding officer and what they think the law is.
I just like to think about what African Americans went through during the Civil Rights movement. They were constantly harassed and mistreated, but they continued to fight. Eventually they were heard, and eventually got full rights as all Americans should. I think the only thing we can do is keep fighting the good fight and we too will be heard.
mark edward marchiafava
Banned
imported post
"I would have no problem being stopped for open carrying.........."
Then, you turn right around and mention the civil rights struggle of the 50's and 60's.
I'm trying to imagine a black person saying "I would have no problem being stopped for being black............."
"I would have no problem being stopped for open carrying.........."
Then, you turn right around and mention the civil rights struggle of the 50's and 60's.
I'm trying to imagine a black person saying "I would have no problem being stopped for being black............."
spyderdude
Regular Member
imported post
There is a difference between being stopped for carrying a gun and being stopped for being a certain skin color. People who open carry do run the risk of being hassled and mistreated by authorities, just like black people were back in the 50s and 60s. The only way we're going to be heard is to be persistent and keep doing what we're doing.
I will have a problem with being hassled and mistreated for open carrying, but if the responding officer is polite and treats me with respect, I won't have a problem with it.
There is a difference between being stopped for carrying a gun and being stopped for being a certain skin color. People who open carry do run the risk of being hassled and mistreated by authorities, just like black people were back in the 50s and 60s. The only way we're going to be heard is to be persistent and keep doing what we're doing.
I will have a problem with being hassled and mistreated for open carrying, but if the responding officer is polite and treats me with respect, I won't have a problem with it.
imported post
RoanokeCop wrote:
My previous comments about not having been mugged, assaulted etc. were intended as tongue in cheek although they did contain more that a kernel of truth.
IMO- LEOs have a difficult job to perform, particularly when it comes to dealing with an unknown quality - the individual with a gun. I understand and agree that in most instances training at the academy level and in-service is somewhat lacking. That however does not mean that OCers should suffer because of that. The need/desire for officer safety does not trump either my rights or the law.
So what might be the answer? Perhaps it lies in the common power of observation - something that at last check was taught in most acadamies.
If I am walking from a residence or retail establishment to my vehicle without suspicious body language you might ask me if everything was all right (engage me in conversation) and I will probably respond, " Yes - just headed home - you have a safe night." That should be in end of it.
If on the other hand, you see an individual come from between two buildings, acting furtively, who breaks and runs when you approach him then you could conclude there was a problem. I am I over simplifying? Without a doubt, but I suspect my point is taken.
BTW - I regularly work in a high crime, drug rich envirnment - the Fan/VCU area of Richmond. (No flames from students, staff or residents for this comment please.) Myself and others have personally been involved in incidents where OCing would seem to have been the one deterrent factor in preventing a crime.
So should I be stopped and identified primarily because I am OCing. Absolutely not!
I will likely give the officer the courtesy of some initial conversation - politely educational and even request a supervisor if that seems necessary but I will refuse voluntary compliance with request/demand for ID, search, detention, disarming etc. An officer that continues with these procedures can expect my contact with a supervisor, a formal letter of complaint or perhaps more as circumstances dictate.
Again, I think that LEOs have a difficult job and that none of us ever have enough training. Thanks for being here to share your perspective - hope you stay around and maybe join us for face to face conversation some day. I do get to Roanoke occasionally and would be happy to drink a cup of coffee or two with you.
Yata hey
RoanokeCop wrote:
Roanoke Cop - appreciate you're introductory thoughts and interest in sharing them with us. Welcome to OCDO.
My previous comments about not having been mugged, assaulted etc. were intended as tongue in cheek although they did contain more that a kernel of truth.
IMO- LEOs have a difficult job to perform, particularly when it comes to dealing with an unknown quality - the individual with a gun. I understand and agree that in most instances training at the academy level and in-service is somewhat lacking. That however does not mean that OCers should suffer because of that. The need/desire for officer safety does not trump either my rights or the law.
So what might be the answer? Perhaps it lies in the common power of observation - something that at last check was taught in most acadamies.
If I am walking from a residence or retail establishment to my vehicle without suspicious body language you might ask me if everything was all right (engage me in conversation) and I will probably respond, " Yes - just headed home - you have a safe night." That should be in end of it.
If on the other hand, you see an individual come from between two buildings, acting furtively, who breaks and runs when you approach him then you could conclude there was a problem. I am I over simplifying? Without a doubt, but I suspect my point is taken.
BTW - I regularly work in a high crime, drug rich envirnment - the Fan/VCU area of Richmond. (No flames from students, staff or residents for this comment please.) Myself and others have personally been involved in incidents where OCing would seem to have been the one deterrent factor in preventing a crime.
So should I be stopped and identified primarily because I am OCing. Absolutely not!
I will likely give the officer the courtesy of some initial conversation - politely educational and even request a supervisor if that seems necessary but I will refuse voluntary compliance with request/demand for ID, search, detention, disarming etc. An officer that continues with these procedures can expect my contact with a supervisor, a formal letter of complaint or perhaps more as circumstances dictate.
Again, I think that LEOs have a difficult job and that none of us ever have enough training. Thanks for being here to share your perspective - hope you stay around and maybe join us for face to face conversation some day. I do get to Roanoke occasionally and would be happy to drink a cup of coffee or two with you.
Yata hey
WhatTimeIsIt?
Regular Member
imported post
I would not have a problem with a police officer starting a conversation with me because I'm open carrying. Nothing wrong with a friendly conversation. However, I would not comply with any request for ID or search. After that I would attempt to end the interaction. Someone should not be detained for simply carrying a pistol in a place where it is legal to do so.
I would not have a problem with a police officer starting a conversation with me because I'm open carrying. Nothing wrong with a friendly conversation. However, I would not comply with any request for ID or search. After that I would attempt to end the interaction. Someone should not be detained for simply carrying a pistol in a place where it is legal to do so.
imported post
spyderdude wrote:
Is this just a personal opinion or do you have data to support this? Would be very interested in a cite regarding this contention.
Yata hey
spyderdude wrote:
Never saw where RoanokeCop made this statement.
Is this just a personal opinion or do you have data to support this? Would be very interested in a cite regarding this contention.
Yata hey
Nutczak
Regular Member
imported post
RoanokeCop wrote:
That is a great comment in theory, andI wish it wasa viableoption.
But when you have a LEO hell-bent on disarming you and looking for anything at all the he can charge you with, any attempt to speak usually becomes a "Contempt of cop" situation and rougher treatment usually follows shortly thereafter.
RoanokeCop, You obviously got into law enforcement for the correct reasons and I commend you for that. What we do have is a good percentage of LEO's that got into the profession for the wrong reasons, and those are the ones that have no problem turning a perfectly beautiful Sunday afternoon into a living hell for an otherwise law abiding citizen that chooses to exercise his/her 2A rights. Word needs to come down from the superiors to educate the street-level employees of the proper way to treat people legally O-C'ing. And in some cases (Milwaukee for example) the exact opposite is happening with the chief telling his officers to "Tackle, Disarm, and then determine if they have the right to carry" along with fishing for PC to arrest and a haul-in.
I wish we had more out there like you,
RoanokeCop wrote:
That is a great comment in theory, andI wish it wasa viableoption.
But when you have a LEO hell-bent on disarming you and looking for anything at all the he can charge you with, any attempt to speak usually becomes a "Contempt of cop" situation and rougher treatment usually follows shortly thereafter.
RoanokeCop, You obviously got into law enforcement for the correct reasons and I commend you for that. What we do have is a good percentage of LEO's that got into the profession for the wrong reasons, and those are the ones that have no problem turning a perfectly beautiful Sunday afternoon into a living hell for an otherwise law abiding citizen that chooses to exercise his/her 2A rights. Word needs to come down from the superiors to educate the street-level employees of the proper way to treat people legally O-C'ing. And in some cases (Milwaukee for example) the exact opposite is happening with the chief telling his officers to "Tackle, Disarm, and then determine if they have the right to carry" along with fishing for PC to arrest and a haul-in.
I wish we had more out there like you,
Dustin
Regular Member
imported post
Tiny85 wrote:
Nah I see the point. But can also see this as trouble to any normal citizen caught in the mix.
Tiny85 wrote:
Nah I see the point. But can also see this as trouble to any normal citizen caught in the mix.
FunkTrooper
Regular Member
imported post
The only problem I have is that your stopping someone for acting lawfully which is wrong, now I can see if that person is wearing the local gang colors or has a gang tattoo that it might be appropriate then but otherwise it makes no sense. It is the common belief that a MWAG is potentially dangerous and that's the kind of stereotype that I've been trying to get past by OCing. Its a sad day in America when you can be detained for committing no crime.
The only problem I have is that your stopping someone for acting lawfully which is wrong, now I can see if that person is wearing the local gang colors or has a gang tattoo that it might be appropriate then but otherwise it makes no sense. It is the common belief that a MWAG is potentially dangerous and that's the kind of stereotype that I've been trying to get past by OCing. Its a sad day in America when you can be detained for committing no crime.
buster81
Regular Member
imported post
RoanokeCop wrote:
RoanokeCop wrote:
Welcome to OCDO. What percentage of cops are murdered with their own guns?
Dustin
Regular Member
imported post
Even though by saying, "A good percentage" leaves you from really declaring just how much you really meant. However in the context of the sentence you obviously meant that to mean "ALOT" of officers are killed yearly with their own firearms.
I too would like to see those percentages but they don't seem to exist. Possibly because the number could mean some bad publicity to LEO's.
Here's whatI found that was interesting.
SOURCE - http://www.policeone.com/close-quarters-combat/articles/100228-Cases-of-Officers-Killed-by-Their-Own-Guns-Likely-Will-Not-Change-R-I-Policies/
Even though by saying, "A good percentage" leaves you from really declaring just how much you really meant. However in the context of the sentence you obviously meant that to mean "ALOT" of officers are killed yearly with their own firearms.
I too would like to see those percentages but they don't seem to exist. Possibly because the number could mean some bad publicity to LEO's.
Here's whatI found that was interesting.
SOURCE - http://www.policeone.com/close-quarters-combat/articles/100228-Cases-of-Officers-Killed-by-Their-Own-Guns-Likely-Will-Not-Change-R-I-Policies/
Anderson IN
Regular Member
imported post
SANDCREEK wrote:
Let's face it! Where is a bad guy going to find the BIGGEST stash of drugs, guns, money, and other property allin one place???? Your local police department evidence area! Why aren't these robbed on a regular basis????:cuss:
They have weapons????? Could be!:celebrate
SANDCREEK wrote:
Let's face it! Where is a bad guy going to find the BIGGEST stash of drugs, guns, money, and other property allin one place???? Your local police department evidence area! Why aren't these robbed on a regular basis????:cuss:
They have weapons????? Could be!:celebrate