Police and Open Carry

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First off this is not to bash LEO this is largely in observation of the Detroit arrest and a couple others i've read on this site and a couple of conversations i've had recently.

I just took a CPL class today and one of the instructors was detroit PD and while he made the statment that open carry was legal in the state "In certain citys and unincorparated arreas" he also said "that city ordineces pre-emt state law." I brought up the preemtion law of MI but since i did know the exact number or ruleing it went no were. He also said that theres in ordinece in Detroit to the effect that if any part of a handgun is covered (even by a holster, any holster) it is considered conceled. (I unfourtunatly didn't bring any material to bring to the class, I don't have a printer.) Anyway my point on this part is this was a pretty pro gun LEO that thought civilians should carry (conceled) and was unaware of a MI preemption law as well as the new law for regestering handguns.


The second point i have is i work with a LEO from Indiana ( I realize it is a diffret sate but i shouldn't matter) that says he has no problems walking up to someone putting them in cuffs and not telling them why there being arrested until he gets them to the station. He also says that when arresting someone he doesn't have to answer questions that citizens as him. Like why there being arrested.

My whole point of this is here are 2 diffrent LEO that are either unaware of the law or are willing to completely ignore it just to "protect themselves" While i understand were they are comeing from becuase of the job they do. That is no reason to ignore the rights and do as they see fit. The only way this will change is if people are willing to stand up for there right and in some cases get arrested and take PD or cities to cout. While that is an extreme case it is about the only way it will happen in places like Detroit. While i hope this doesn't have to happen often and it looks like a lot of cases it is not true. I think it is the only way that OC will become accepted and the ending of harrasment is if some big city gets there butt handed to them in a law suit.

Just my obsevation and .02 cents wondered what anyone else thinks.

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the500kid wrote:

I just took a CPL class today and one of the instructors was detroit PD and while he made the statment that open carry was legal in the state "In certain citys and unincorparated arreas" he also said "that city ordineces pre-emt state law." Your CPL instructor is wrong. My CPL instructor said something similar. Most of them do. Something you should keep in mind is that they are CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT instructors... their job is to teach you the laws regarding CC not OC. In fact, the more CC'ers there are, the more job security they have. Plus, they don't want to rock the boat with law enforcement or the counties... teaching CPL classes are their bread and butter.

When I asked the question about open carry, my CPL instructor said something along the lines, "Sure, it's technically legal... but every city is different. And even if you're in a city where it is legal, you can expect to have yourself tackled from behind by an officer and you won't have any recourse against them because they have the right to defend the public and ask questions later." I knew it was horse-crap when he said it, but it wasn't the time nor place to argue.

While i understand were they are comeing from becuase of the job they do. No disrespect meant here to you or any LEO, but lots of people have tough and dangerous jobs. Again, I'm not trying to detract at all from the service officers do for the public (the good officers, at least) nor for the danger many of them place themselves in... but let's be objective about it. A cop in Birmingham probably has a safer job than a bill collector in Detroit. A cop in Troy probably has a safer job than an EMT in Flint. Thats point A. Point B is that nobody forces an officer into their career. They choose to accept the risk and the stress, so I do not excuse their behavior when they cave under the pressure. Just like the rest of us "pee-on civilians", if you can't handle the rigors of your career, then move on to a new one. Law enforcement personell are most certainly not the only people who put their lives on the line every day. Firefighters do it... EMT's do it... doctors do it... postal carriers do it... teachers do it... bankers do it... military members do it... liquor store clerks do it... heck, at some point I'm sure we ALL do it. The difference is that officers, most of the time, are not the ones that criminals are targeting. Civilians are murdered untold times more than officers. We deserve the right to defend ourselves in the same manner.

The whole "entitlement mentality" is a major part of the problem amongst rogue LEO's. Again, no disrespect to LEO's... but let's just face reality about the whole situation for a moment and call it what it is.

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Veritas wrote:

While i understand were they are comeing from becuase of the job they do. No disrespect meant here to you or any LEO, but lots of people have tough and dangerous jobs. Again, I'm not trying to detract at all from the service officers do for the public (the good officers, at least) nor for the danger many of them place themselves in... but let's be objective about it. A cop in Birmingham probably has a safer job than a bill collector in Detroit. A cop in Troy probably has a safer job than an EMT in Flint. Thats point A. Point B is that nobody forces an officer into their career. They choose to accept the risk and the stress, so I do not excuse their behavior when they cave under the pressure. Just like the rest of us "pee-on civilians", if you can't handle the rigors of your career, then move on to a new one. Law enforcement personell are most certainly not the only people who put their lives on the line every day. Firefighters do it... EMT's do it... doctors do it... postal carriers do it... teachers do it... bankers do it... military members do it... liquor store clerks do it... heck, at some point I'm sure we ALL do it. The difference is that officers, most of the time, are not the ones that criminals are targeting. Civilians are murdered untold times more than officers. We deserve the right to defend ourselves in the same manner.

The whole "entitlement mentality" is a major part of the problem amongst rogue LEO's. Again, no disrespect to LEO's... but let's just face reality about the whole situation for a moment and call it what it is.

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(applause)!!!!!!!! (Standing ovation)!!!!!!!:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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Veritas wrote:

the500kid wrote:

I just took a CPL class today and one of the instructors was detroit PD and while he made the statment that open carry was legal in the state "In certain citys and unincorparated arreas" he also said "that city ordineces pre-emt state law." Your CPL instructor is wrong. My CPL instructor said something similar. Most of them do. Something you should keep in mind is that they are CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT instructors... their job is to teach you the laws regarding CC not OC. In fact, the more CC'ers there are, the more job security they have. Plus, they don't want to rock the boat with law enforcement or the counties... teaching CPL classes are their bread and butter.

When I asked the question about open carry, my CPL instructor said something along the lines, "Sure, it's technically legal... but every city is different. And even if you're in a city where it is legal, you can expect to have yourself tackled from behind by an officer and you won't have any recourse against them because they have the right to defend the public and ask questions later." I knew it was horse-crap when he said it, but it wasn't the time nor place to argue.

While i understand were they are comeing from becuase of the job they do. No disrespect meant here to you or any LEO, but lots of people have tough and dangerous jobs. Again, I'm not trying to detract at all from the service officers do for the public (the good officers, at least) nor for the danger many of them place themselves in... but let's be objective about it. A cop in Birmingham probably has a safer job than a bill collector in Detroit. A cop in Troy probably has a safer job than an EMT in Flint. Thats point A. Point B is that nobody forces an officer into their career. They choose to accept the risk and the stress, so I do not excuse their behavior when they cave under the pressure. Just like the rest of us "pee-on civilians", if you can't handle the rigors of your career, then move on to a new one. Law enforcement personell are most certainly not the only people who put their lives on the line every day. Firefighters do it... EMT's do it... doctors do it... postal carriers do it... teachers do it... bankers do it... military members do it... liquor store clerks do it... heck, at some point I'm sure we ALL do it. The difference is that officers, most of the time, are not the ones that criminals are targeting. Civilians are murdered untold times more than officers. We deserve the right to defend ourselves in the same manner.

The whole "entitlement mentality" is a major part of the problem amongst rogue LEO's. Again, no disrespect to LEO's... but let's just face reality about the whole situation for a moment and call it what it is.

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While I heartily agree with most of your comments regarding CPL instructors (you did say most) and ROGUE LEOs, I myself instruct people not only in CC but OC with regards to their (the students) safety, legal /societal/civil repercussions, as well as to the advantages to both. I greatly promote safe, and proper self defense techniques that would be applicable to both oc/cc.
Potential CPL students really do need to do their homework when selecting a cpl instructor, such as meeting the instructor and asking questions regarding such topics. Remember; the only stupid question is the one you DO NOT ask.

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discerningshootist wrote:

While I heartily agree with most of your comments regarding CPL instructors (you did say most) and ROGUE LEOs, I myself instruct people not only in CC but OC with regards to their (the students) safety, legal /societal/civil repercussions, as well as to the advantages to both. I greatly promote safe, and proper self defense techniques that would be applicable to both oc/cc.
Potential CPL students really do need to do their homework when selecting a cpl instructor, such as meeting the instructor and asking questions regarding such topics. Remember; the only stupid question is the one you DO NOT ask.

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Fair enough. And hence why I did say "most" and not "all". ;-P

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From this site. http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2007

US Census data. As of June 1996 the total number of full-time State and local officers with arrest powers was 663,535 I believe it's around 750,000 now.

class=subhead2007 Total Line of Duty Deaths: 189
9/11 related illness: 8
Accidental: 4
Aircraft accident: 3
Animal related: 1
Automobile accident: 48
Boating accident: 1
Bomb: 5
Drowned: 3
Duty related illness: 1
Exposure to toxins: 1
Fall: 3
Gunfire: 65
Gunfire (Accidental): 4
Heart attack: 8
Heat exhaustion: 1
Motorcycle accident: 7
Struck by vehicle: 9
Vehicle pursuit: 6
Vehicular assault: 9
Weather/Natural disaster: 2


Deaths for LEO's is far below many jobs in this country.

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In response to Veritas's coments Yes, my CPL instructor was wrong on a lot of points I was glad I didn't have to pay that much for the class I felt I knew more than he did and it was a waste of my time. I like you knew it wasn't the time or place to argue so I just left it alone, but I'm constenly amazed at how much crap we will put up with before we push back.

I know what you mean by tough and dangerous jobs that are more dangerous both of my chosen ocupations are more dagerous than LE by the numbers, but I don't think there as stressful. I can't prove that becuase I've never worked LE nor do I care to. Before you think I'm defending LE to much I'm quite certain if 90% of LE went away the U.S. would probably be a better place becuase the people needing to be shot would be shot and life would be good. As far as the stress and the "pee-on cilivians" that you say I think thats a cop culture that we have tolerated way to long which is evedent in the stories that pop up in the encounters with LE. Its a completely garbage mentality but is what you get with a nanny/police state your no longer inocent until proven guility your guilty until proven inocent.

Thanks Venator for the stats on LE deaths I belive that is much milder that either one of my professions. Which now worries me a little, but not much when your numbers up its up.

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I went to Laingsburg today to visit my mother, sister and my niece and nephew, while there I decided to talk to the local police. They were in abundance as there was a carnival this weekend. I was not carrying at the time. I asked if they were aware of my right to carry openly, not only did they tell me that they were aware they started relating stories of how they had found out that it was legal. We had a very pleasant chat for about twenty minutes with five officers gathered around relating stories and talking about open carry. thought you all might like to know. VERY well informed police department with polite and involved officers.

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During my CPL class last week someone brought-up OC as well, the officer (a commanding SWAT/sniper Lt.) stated that in the city in which he works there are "public safety" laws that prohibit OC. He continued by stating that he knew of no law that allows anyone the right to OC. I knew he was wrong, but decided to do research so that I may send him the correct information, that's how I found this site.

The officer was very bright and engaging, a nearly perfect instructor, really... nearly. It just sits wrong with me when someone farts and tells me that I didn't smell it. I knew he BS'd me, he knew it too. The slack-jawed yay-hoos that filled the class didn't care, so long as he signed the certificate so they could run, quick like a bunny, off to their local authority and get the CPL packet. Lt. Dan tried to Huck Finn me on at least one other question, but again, I knew better and am adding that little treat to the packet that I'll be mailing to dear Lt. Dan.

He may be Lt. Dan, but I'm not Forrest Gump. I'll make sure that he and his chief both get info packets. Then, as soon as I get my CPL, I'm going to take a nice stroll down past the cop-shop in Lt. Dan's fair city, Sig on my side, and wave a polite and respectful smile to the fine officers that protect that city. You may join me if you'd like.

Sig

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SigSauer wrote:

During my CPL class last week someone brought-up OC as well, the officer (a commanding SWAT/sniper Lt.) stated that in the city in which he works there are "public safety" laws that prohibit OC. He continued by stating that he knew of no law that allows anyone the right to OC. I knew he was wrong, but decided to do research so that I may send him the correct information, that's how I found this site.

The officer was very bright and engaging, a nearly perfect instructor, really... nearly. It just sits wrong with me when someone farts and tells me that I didn't smell it. I knew he BS'd me, he knew it too. The slack-jawed yay-hoos that filled the class didn't care, so long as he signed the certificate so they could run, quick like a bunny, off to their local authority and get the CPL packet. Lt. Dan tried to Huck Finn me on at least one other question, but again, I knew better and am adding that little treat to the packet that I'll be mailing to dear Lt. Dan.

He may be Lt. Dan, but I'm not Forrest Gump. I'll make sure that he and his chief both get info packets. Then, as soon as I get my CPL, I'm going to take a nice stroll down past the cop-shop in Lt. Dan's fair city, Sig on my side, and wave a polite and respectful smile to the fine officers that protect that city. You may join me if you'd like.

Sig

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Well he was kinda right, other than the state constitution they is no law that states OC is legal, it's just that there is no law that prohibits it. As for th public safety issue, I would have to look at the ordinances he is referring to as I don't know of any that would apply.

BTW what city does he work for?

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Venator wrote:

Well he was kinda right, other than the state constitution they is no law that states OC is legal,

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This is a very common misunderstanding of laws by many people,Laws are put in place to tell us what we cannot do, they are not enacted to tell us what we can do!

if there is not law specifically prohibiting an act, it is then legal.
Andthen we have"Ex Post Facto" laws (SP?) so if the lawmakers decide to make a law to prohibit a certain act, law enforcement can not go back and charge a person for committingthat now illegal act thattook placebefore the law was passed.

lets say there is no law about spitting on the sidewalk, a cop see's you spit a big goober down in the walkway and there is nothing he can do to charge you.he brings up this concern at the town meetinga week later andthe town passes an ordinace that says spitting on the sidewalk is prohibited. You cannot be charged for spitting before that law took effect. But if you do it after the law was passed, you will be charged.

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It takes more open carry and open carry news stories to get the police educated; if they don't get it then, the subsequent law suits and depositions of their leaderships will force state wide re-training as has been done recently in Pennsylvania.

That's the way it has worked in every state; the recent issue in Kalamazoo Michigan I think is an outlier.

So that's why we ask people to host open cary events in public venues and get some press coverage - because it results in greater understanding of gun laws - the public and some of the police seem to get their gun law understanding from watchign TV shows made in New York with New York gun law mentalities.

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If government does not restrict or otherwise deny pre-existing rights... then the right exists. Actually... the right 'exists' even where illegally denied, but that's another story of tyranny altogether.

Rights are not granted by government as are permit and license. When a LEO takesthe oath... they are swearing to protect and defend these pre-existing 'unalienable' rights as codified within USC. It is assumed these rights are understood by the oath taker upon assumption of his office. Obviously... in many instances they are not. CWP/CCW/CPL etc is Permit/License to 'conceal'... not simply to carry a weapon. This is done under 10A sovereignty.

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I love your passion Veritas:celebrate

.I thought I was the only one who was not affraid to point out that a cop volunteers for his job. As far as that goes I don't place a cop any higher on the value of life list than you or I

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

If government does not restrict or otherwise deny pre-existing rights... then the right exists. Actually... the right 'exists' even where illegally denied, but that's another story of tyranny altogether.

Rights are not granted by government as are permit and license. When a LEO takesthe oath... they are swearing to protect and defend these pre-existing 'unalienable' rights as codified within USC. It is assumed these rights are understood by the oath taker upon assumption of his office. Obviously... in many instances they are not. CWP/CCW/CPL etc is Permit/License to 'conceal'... not simply to carry a weapon. This is done under 10A sovereignty.

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Kudos... My rights where granted by God, and guaranteed by George

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Mike wrote:

"...the public and some of the police seem to get their gun law understanding from watching TV shows made in New York with New York gun law mentalities."

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Dead ON! Those and the MSM who broadcast from NY, DC, and LA whose commentary is written by the same type of mentalities.

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conservative85 wrote:

.I thought I was the only one who was not afraid to point out that a cop volunteers for his job. As far as that goes I don't place a cop any higher on the value of life list than you or I

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You shouldn't... and having been one... neither do I. You accept the risks when you apply and get hired. IMHO... any clerk workin' the night shift in an inner city convienience store has a much higher risk factor of being murdered than any cop. I used to work the flight deck (at night)... all weather... handling and arming/dearming things that go Boom. I've seen the results when things go wrong. MANY things can go wrong.

Yeah... they began paying flight deckhazardous duty pay in 1965. ($55. per month) 'Last set of 'skin's' I was collecting for that was $120. per month. 'Bout $4.00 a day. Since shifts were 12 hours minimum (still are) that's .33 cents an hour. Whoopdeedoo! :celebrate



If you're that afraid bein' on the street as a cop... you shouldn't be one.