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Thread: Ouachita Parish Sheriff Confusion of Age

  1. #1
    Regular Member Syntax Error's Avatar
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    Alright. I have been letting our daughter carry one of our older handguns. She is 20. Tonight, she went to the store for me. She was stopped by an officer with Ouachita Parish Sheriff. Then another 10 or so cars with as many or more cops arrived on scene. They informed her that OC was allowed ONLY for shotguns and rifles at 17, and not handguns. They followed her home, and turned the pistol over to me. The Seargent told me the same. OC only with rifles and shotguns, not pistols. He was Extremely nice, and we discussed it awhile, and he even gave some tips for future carry for her. I will be contacting OPSD to see where the information comes from. She had a copy of the law (thanks to opencarry, which she has been reading), and he still said the same. She handled her self Very well for her first encounter. I will keep you up to date.



    Matt



    **Moved to new thread**


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    We'll let's look it over.
    Section 11 of the State Constitution states:

    §11. Right to Keep and Bear Arms
    Section 11. The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged,


    but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.




    RS 14:95.8 states:

    §95.8. Illegal possession of a handgun by a juvenile

    A. It is unlawful for any person who has not attained the age of seventeen years knowingly to possess any handgun on his person. Any person possessing any handgun in violation of this Section commits the offense of illegal possession of a handgun by a juvenile.(Note: No where in this section does it mention, Shotgun, Rifle etc.etc.)

    B.(1) On a first conviction, the offender shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars and imprisoned for not less than ninety days and not more than six months.

    (2) On a second conviction, the offender shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars and imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than two years.

    (3) On a third or subsequent conviction, the offender shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars and imprisoned at hard labor for not more than five years.

    (4) A juvenile adjudicated delinquent under this Section, having been previously found guilty or adjudicated delinquent for any crime of violence as defined by R.S. 14:2(B), or attempt or conspiracy to commit any such offense, shall upon a first or subsequent conviction be fined not less than five hundred dollars and not more than one thousand dollars and shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not less than six months and not more than five years. At least ninety days shall be served without benefit of probation, parole, or suspension of sentence.

    C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to any person under the age of seventeen years who is:

    (1) Attending a hunter's safety course or a firearms safety course.

    (2) Engaging in practice in the use of a firearm or target shooting at an established range.

    (3) Hunting or trapping pursuant to a valid license issued to him pursuant to the laws of this state.

    (4) Traveling to or from any activity described in Paragraph (1), (2), or (3) of this Subsection while in possession of an unloaded gun.

    (5) On real property with the permission of his parent or legal guardian and with the permission of the owner or lessee of the property.

    (6) At such person's residence and who, with the permission of such person's parent or legal guardian, possesses a handgun.

    (7) Possessing a handgun with the written permission of such person's parent or legal guardian; provided that such person carries on his person a copy of such written permission.

    D. For the purposes of this Section "handgun" means a firearm as defined in R.S. 14:37.2, provided however, that the barrel length shall not exceed twelve inches.

    Acts 1999, No. 1218, §1.





    RS 14:95 states:

    §95. Illegal carrying of weapons

    A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

    (1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or

    (2) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used as a dangerous weapon, at any time by an enemy alien; or

    (3) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any tools, or dynamite, or nitroglycerine, or explosives, or other instrumentality customarily used by thieves or burglars at any time by any person with the intent to commit a crime; or

    (4) The manufacture, ownership, possession, custody or use of any switchblade knife, spring knife or other knife or similar instrument having a blade which may be automatically unfolded or extended from a handle by the manipulation of a button, switch, latch or similar contrivance.

    (5)(a) The intentional possession or use by any person of a dangerous weapon on a school campus during regular school hours or on a school bus. "School" means any elementary, secondary, high school, or vo-tech school in this state and "campus" means all facilities and property within the boundary of the school property. "School bus" means any motor bus being used to transport children to and from school or in connection with school activities.

    (b) The provisions of this Paragraph shall not apply to:

    (i) A peace officer as defined by R.S. 14:30(B) in the performance of his official duties.

    (ii) A school official or employee acting during the normal course of his employment or a student acting under the direction of such school official or employee.

    (iii) Any person having the written permission of the principal or school board and engaged in competition or in marksmanship or safety instruction.

    B.(1) Whoever commits the crime of illegal carrying of weapons shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

    (2) Whoever commits the crime of illegal carrying of weapons with any firearm used in the commission of a crime of violence as defined in R.S. 14:2(B), shall be fined not more than two thousand dollars, or imprisoned, with or without hard labor, for not less than one year nor more than two years, or both. Any sentence issued pursuant to the provisions of this Paragraph and any sentence issued pursuant to a violation of a crime of violence as defined in R.S. 14:2(B) shall be served consecutively.

    C. On a second conviction, the offender shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than five years.

    D. On third and subsequent convictions, the offender shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than ten years without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence.

    E. If the offender uses, possesses, or has under his immediate control any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, while committing or attempting to commit a crime of violence or while in the possession of or during the sale or distribution of a controlled dangerous substance, the offender shall be fined not more than ten thousand dollars and imprisoned at hard labor for not less than five nor more than ten years without the benefit of probation, parole, or suspension of sentence. Upon a second or subsequent conviction, the offender shall be imprisoned at hard labor for not less than twenty years nor more than thirty years without the benefit of probation, parole, or suspension of sentence.

    F. The enhanced penalty upon second, third, and subsequent convictions shall not be applicable in cases where more than five years have elapsed since the expiration of the maximum sentence, or sentences, of the previous conviction or convictions, and the time of the commission of the last offense for which he has been convicted; the sentence to be imposed in such event shall be the same as may be imposed upon a first conviction.

    G.(1) The provisions of this Section except Paragraph (4) of Subsection A shall not apply to sheriffs and their deputies, state and city police, constables and town marshals, or persons vested with police power when in the actual discharge of official duties. These provisions shall not apply to sheriffs and their deputies and state and city police who are not actually discharging their official duties, provided that such persons are full time, active, and certified by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and have on their persons valid identification as duly commissioned law enforcement officers.

    (2) The provisions of this Section except Paragraph (4) of Subsection A shall not apply to any law enforcement officer who is retired from full-time active law enforcement service with at least twelve years service upon retirement, nor shall it apply to any enforcement officer of the office of state parks, in the Department of Culture, Recreation and Tourism who is retired from active duty as an enforcement officer, provided that such retired officers have on their persons valid identification as retired law enforcement officers, which identification shall be provided by the entity which employed the officer prior to his or her public retirement. The retired law enforcement officer must be qualified annually in the use of firearms by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and have proof of such qualification. This exception shall not apply to such officers who are medically retired based upon any mental impairment.

    (3)(a) The provisions of this Section except Paragraph (4) of Subsection A shall not apply to active or retired reserve or auxiliary law enforcement officers qualified annually by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and who have on their person valid identification as active or retired reserve law or auxiliary municipal police officers. The active or retired reserve or auxiliary municipal police officer shall be qualified annually in the use of firearms by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and have proof of such certification.

    (b) For the purposes of this Paragraph, a reserve or auxiliary municipal police officer shall be defined as a volunteer, non-regular, sworn member of a law enforcement agency who serves with or without compensation and has regular police powers while functioning as such agency's representative, and who participates on a regular basis in agency activities including, but not limited to those pertaining to crime prevention or control, and the preservation of the peace and enforcement of the law.

    H. The provisions of this Section shall not prohibit active justices or judges of the supreme court, courts of appeal, district courts, parish courts, juvenile courts, family courts, city courts, and traffic courts, constables, coroners, district attorneys and designated assistant district attorneys, United States attorneys and assistant United States attorneys and investigators, and justices of the peace from possessing and concealing a handgun on their person when the justice or judge, constable, coroner, district attorneys and designated assistant district attorneys, United States attorneys and assistant United States attorneys and investigators, or justices of the peace are certified by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training.

    I. The provisions of this Section shall not prohibit the carrying of a concealed handgun by a person who is a college or university police officer under the provisions of R.S. 17:1805 and who is carrying a concealed handgun in accordance with the provisions of that statute.

    J. The provisions of this Section shall not prohibit the ownership of rescue knives by commissioned full-time law enforcement officers. The provisions of this Section shall not prohibit the carrying of rescue knives by commissioned full-time law enforcement officers who are in the actual discharge of their official duties. The provisions of this Section shall not prohibit the sale of rescue knives to commissioned full-time law enforcement officers. The provisions of this Section shall not prohibit the ownership or possession of rescue knives by merchants who own or possess the knives solely as inventory to be offered for sale to commissioned full-time law enforcement officers. As used in this Subsection, a "rescue knife" is a folding knife, which can be readily and easily opened with one hand and which has at least one blade which is designed to be used to free individuals who are trapped by automobile seat belts, or at least one blade which is designed for a similar purpose. No blade of a rescue knife shall exceed five inches in length.

    K.(1) The provisions of this Section shall not prohibit a retired justice or judge of the supreme court, courts of appeal, district courts, parish courts, juvenile courts, family courts, and city courts from possessing and concealing a handgun on their person provided that such retired justice or judge is certified by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and has on their person valid identification showing proof of their status as a retired justice or judge.

    (2) The retired justice or judge shall be qualified annually in the use of firearms by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and have proof of such certification. However, this Subsection shall not apply to a retired justice or judge who is medically retired based upon any mental impairment.

    Amended by Acts 1956, No. 345, §1; Acts 1958, No. 21, §1; Acts 1958, No. 379, §§1, 3; Acts 1968, No. 647, §1; Acts 1975, No. 492, §1; Acts 1986, No. 38, §1; Acts 1992, No. 1017, §1; Acts 1993, No. 636, §1; Acts 1993, No. 844, §1; Acts 1994, 3rd Ex. Sess., No. 143, §1; Acts 1995, No. 636, §1; Acts 1995, No. 930, §1; Acts 1995, No. 1195, §1; Acts 1995, No. 1199, §1; Acts 1997, No. 508, §1; Acts 1997, No. 611, §1; Acts 1997, No. 1064, §1; Acts 1999, No. 738, §1; Acts 1999, No. 924, §1; Acts 1999, No. 953, §1; Acts 2003, No. 608, §1; Acts 2003, No. 766, §1; Acts 2006, No. 515, §1; Acts 2006, No. 589, §1; Acts 2008, No. 172, §1.


    I see NO WHERE in the above where your daughter violated ANY rule of law.

    In Fact, I see clearly that her 2nd Amendment rights were obliterated becuase of the ignorance of the officer.

    I'd say, based off of this information alone, I would contact a lawyer immediately.


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    Did you ask him what law she was breaking?

    Looks like Dustin nailed it.

    Let us know what they say.

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    Mark Edward may seem a little extreme, but he's been down this road and knows how far out of bounds police can be and how hard they can dig in their heels.

    About the only good thing that can be extracted from this is that if they really thought what she was doing was illegal, then they also thought they were doing a big favor by not citing or arresting her for the misdemeanor.

    One has to ask why, in the face of information to the contrary, they didn't at least look up the statute for themselves before seizing the gun and escorting her home.

    If an attorney is at all feasible, I would suggest Mark's advice. If an attorney is not feasible, I would write a polite, even friendly letter in the form of a formal complaint, clearly stating the legal facts, including the 4A violations if any, and expressing disappointment at their failure to look up the law once she showed them to the contrary.

    If you do not get a favorable response, you will know you need to line up an attorney for the next time.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    SNIP The very fact...
    I understand. What I say next is not meant to contradict you, Mark. I'm looking for an in-between solution in casehe thinks yours too extreme or does not have the $ for an attorney.

    Also, we don't know for sure that this bunch of cops won't respond favorably to a simple handling. Although many have responded unfavorably, we have had a few here and there that did.

    In that he reports the officer as being very friendly at the house, it seems plausible that these might be honest cops who made an honest mistake about the law. Its not any more excusable; but it may be correctable with less than a 32-pounder atgrappling hook distance into the water line.

    With all that said, I wouldhave no objection ifhe went the attorney route you recommend. Cops are used to hearing from attorneys or dealing with them, I should imagine. I can't imagine a no-nonsense letter from an attorney would be of any special significance apart from the content. They would just know the dad is serious and had better get their act together.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Syntax Error's Avatar
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    I appreciate all of the input. Before this goes into deeper realms, let me adjust the spotlight setting a little wider on this situation.

    I am very familiar with Mark. I do not view him as extreme at all. He carries a revolver for crying out loud. Extreme would be a nice .40 cal with iridium night sights.

    Kristin (our daughter) is studying criminal justice. She wants to become a cop. Please don't hate her, she's a good kid. Let me input here the very core basic value of Mark's, and my, belief. IF everyone carried a firearm, and took care of business, we would NOT need cops. Just the local Marshal or magistrate. Remember, people used to only tie an easy slip knot for their ride, and not worry about it being stolen. The "Wild" West was not so wild at all. Just another Hollywood lie, that serves as part of the continuing, overall anti-gun mechanism. For now, we can use all the good cops we find. Back to Kristin. She is VERY nervous about carrying a firearm openly. She looks like she is 15. Really. She is like 5'-0", and around 102. The pistol and holster take up 25% of her side, so it is a Very big billboard. Which is going to make everyone do third takes at her. This is by my design. I want her to have to deal with the questions. So the size of her and the gun make questions almost mandatory. Now, I allow her to carry it unloaded. I know, I know, but listen. It was a trade. She is more comfortable with this. It got her OC'ing, which made Ginger and I happy she made that step. Also, she is far to "green" to make threat assesment. I am working with her on this. Also, she can be very easily overpowered by some of these thugs that run around. This way, they would not have a loaded weapon at their disposal. She has learned positive firearm retention and control very well. I test her daily by trying to catch her unaware and take it. I have not been able to for the last several tries. Her arm postitions have become near perfect.
    Now for the cops in question. All the questions they asked of Kristin, she answered very well. It made me proud. She did do the tear thing at the beginning, but moved beyond to handling the business at hand. She busted out the printed section of LA law, stuck it up to the officer so he could see, and even directed his attention to the pertinent section with a well placed finger point. Very politley he informed her that only applied to shotguns and rifles. Once they found out she was not somone with bad intentions, their attitude changed to that of almost friends. They followed her to the house, and this is where I met the seargent. Now, I am pretty good at reading people and situations. This officer truly believed what he was telling me. Which tells me it is taught to them, and not just his belief. This was very evident to me after a few minutes of conversation. This guy was SUPER nice, and very professional. He did not at all act like he was boss. So instead of the "you are wrong" spill, I resolved to take this up with the root of the problem. The department which teaches them. I am contacting the admin dept and others within the sheriff's dept to found out the specifc doctrine and how it can be adjusted. This way, I inform Many cops, and not just the one.
    I had hoped this would happen to her. Remember, I placed a large billboard on her side. It would do one of two things. It would scare her off of open carry, which would tell me she was not truly ready, or she would be empowered by it, and further strengthen her resolve. Folks, this is truly my daughter. After the incident, and being told that it applied to rifles and shotguns only, my sweet little girl said, "Daddy, can I have a shotgun please?"

    Matt

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    Regular Member Syntax Error's Avatar
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Soooo, when will the shotgun be presented to her?
    Ha! She is 20, she can buy her own shotgun.:P


    *UPDATE*

    I asked her for the printed section she had shown the officer after Dustin's post. (Thanks go out to you again my friend) HANDGUN is printed pretty clearly in that. It turns out, she had a page from a FAQ section. It was the Question "How old blah blah in LA" and the answer 17. NOW she has the actual section. I do not think it can be argued with. The repeated use of the word handgun should help any of the uninformed.

    *Observational question*

    Why is it illegal for someone under 21 to buy a handgun, and carry it holstered where they would have to do at least 2 motions to get it in action? BUT can carry big ole 12 gauge at low ready, loaded with very effective flesh tearing buckshot.

    Matt

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    Syntax Error wrote:
    *Observational question*

    Why is it illegal for someone under 21 to buy a handgun, and carry it holstered where they would have to do at least 2 motions to get it in action? BUT can carry big ole 12 gauge at low ready, loaded with very effective flesh tearing buckshot.
    Politics.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Syntax Error wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Soooo, when will the shotgun be presented to her?
    Ha! She is 20, she can buy her own shotgun.:P


    *UPDATE*

    I asked her for the printed section she had shown the officer after Dustin's post. (Thanks go out to you again my friend) HANDGUN is printed pretty clearly in that. It turns out, she had a page from a FAQ section. It was the Question "How old blah blah in LA" and the answer 17. NOW she has the actual section. I do not think it can be argued with. The repeated use of the word handgun should help any of the uninformed.

    *Observational question*

    Why is it illegal for someone under 21 to buy a handgun, and carry it holstered where they would have to do at least 2 motions to get it in action? BUT can carry big ole 12 gauge at low ready, loaded with very effective flesh tearing buckshot.

    Matt
    My guess would bethey did it that way so a person that age could have a long gun for hunting.

    Please keep us updated on how it goes with with SO.



  10. #10
    Regular Member Syntax Error's Avatar
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    My guess would bethey did it that way so a person that age could have a long gun for hunting.

    Please keep us updated on how it goes with with SO.

    You would think that, but look under the section posted above for illegal carry by a person under 17. It has a provision for someone under seventeen listed for hunting. So if they are hunting they can carry a handgun. I am sure that was the original thinking, but the printed law above bodes different.

    I will post names and dates when I get going on the calling. I am restoring a 62 Ford, and need to get it road ready. Must be nice to have new motorcycles. I have to work on an old truck.


    *EDIT*
    I just found this while re-reading. It does not get any plainer.

    D. For the purposes of this Section "handgun" means a firearm as defined in R.S. 14:37.2, provided however, that the barrel length shall not exceed twelve inches.


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    Syntax Error wrote:
    My guess would bethey did it that way so a person that age could have a long gun for hunting.

    Please keep us updated on how it goes with with SO.

    You would think that, but look under the section posted above for illegal carry by a person under 17. It has a provision for someone under seventeen listed for hunting. So if they are hunting they can carry a handgun. I am sure that was the original thinking, but the printed law above bodes different.

    I will post names and dates when I get going on the calling. I am restoring a 62 Ford, and need to get it road ready. Must be nice to have new motorcycles. I have to work on an old truck.
    Go to Gonzales.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Syntax Error's Avatar
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    Go to Gonzales.
    No thanks, they're broke now.

    Matt

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    Ok, so i am confused, haha. Can i open carry a handgun at 19? or only a shotgun or rifle?



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    biggin215 wrote:
    Ok, so i am confused, haha. Can i open carry a handgun at 19? or only a shotgun or rifle?

    If you open carry only in places where they know the law you'll be ok.

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    ok, got it, so the cop was wrong.

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    biggin215 wrote:
    ok, got it, so the cop was wrong.
    RS 14:95.8 states:

    §95.8. Illegal possession of a handgun by a juvenile


    A. It is unlawful for any person who has not attained the age of seventeen years knowingly to possess any handgun on his person. Any person possessing any handgun in violation of this Section commits the offense of illegal possession of a handgun by a juvenile.(Note: No where in this section does it mention, Shotgun, Rifle etc.etc.)


  17. #17
    Regular Member Syntax Error's Avatar
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    biggin215 wrote:
    ok, got it, so the cop was wrong.
    Very be UH HUH to that. He was wrong. The text is very plain and descriptive. (very unusual for a law document). It is my belief they are teaching this, and it is not individual opinion.



    Matt

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