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Thread: Legal ammuntion

  1. #1
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    I hear from some people, the "You have to cover that." types, that hollow point ammunition is not legal to carry in our OC'd or CC'd pistols. Any truthor inaccuracy to this statement?Or maybesome municipalities have restrictions and the state has not made a determination on the subject yet.

    I tried searching the Washington forum for a related topic but was unable to find one.

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    No Washington law restrictions on the type of ammo you can carry. Of course there's no way to prove this, because no law exists. "That which is not specifically prohibited is permitted."

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    To the best of my knowledge, only one state (NJ) restricts the use of Hollow Point Ammo.

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    New York has restrictions as well. I don't know if it is city or state.

    -adamsesq

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    While there is no law some argue that the ammunition you use can be used against you in court. My friend was telling me awhile ago that he won't carry JHP because someone told him it wouldn't look good in court since JHP rounds are designed to "kill".

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    FunkTrooper wrote:
    While there is no law some argue that the ammunition you use can be used against you in court. My friend was telling me awhile ago that he won't carry JHP because someone told him it wouldn't look good in court since JHP rounds are designed to "kill".
    What does your friend think his gun was designed to do? I think your friend is listening to a few too many folk who talk out of their azz with nothing but the history of an urban legend to back them up. There are some great names in the gun community out there that fit this description.

    I carry JHP because they give me the greatest chance of stopping the threat with the least chance of harming others that might be around. Seems to me like it would be negligence NOT to use them!

    -adamsesq

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    adamsesq wrote:
    FunkTrooper wrote:
    While there is no law some argue that the ammunition you use can be used against you in court. My friend was telling me awhile ago that he won't carry JHP because someone told him it wouldn't look good in court since JHP rounds are designed to "kill".
    What does your friend think his gun was designed to do? I think your friend is listening to a few too many folk who talk out of their azz with nothing but the history of an urban legend to back them up. There are some great names in the gun community out there that fit this description.

    I carry JHP because they give me the greatest chance of stopping the threat with the least chance of harming others that might be around. Seems to me like it would be negligence NOT to use them!

    -adamsesq
    My thoughts exactly. If I am forced to use my firearm i am using to stop the threat, not to kill someone.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    FunkTrooper wrote:
    While there is no law some argue that the ammunition you use can be used against you in court. My friend was telling me awhile ago that he won't carry JHP because someone told him it wouldn't look good in court since JHP rounds are designed to "kill".
    I direct you to the relevant portion of RCW 9A.16.110:

    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

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    The reason that I usually give to someone that questions why I want to use JHP rounds is "Why do you think law enforcement uses them? The criminals sometimes have armor on." I do understand that if I shoot someone with my .40 even if it is a FMJ they are probably going to stop and "rethink" why they might want to continue with an attack. I also understand that if I am carrying JHP 155 grain they will probably hit the ground after they fly backwards a few feet and probaly not get back up.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    Faceplant wrote:
    The reason that I usually give to someone that questions why I want to use JHP rounds is "Why do you think law enforcement uses them? The criminals sometimes have armor on." I do understand that if I shoot someone with my .40 even if it is a FMJ they are probably going to stop and "rethink" why they might want to continue with an attack. I also understand that if I am carrying JHP 155 grain they will probably hit the ground after they fly backwards a few feet and probaly not get back up.
    JHP's would be less effective at penetrating body armor than FMJ's would be.
    Does the armor cover their neck/throat/face?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Just make sure you buy good factory JHP's. I'd recommend you keep the box so you have the lot #. Gold dots are very good but you can look at AR15.com for a good review of defense loads. Don't expect anyone to fly back a few feet.

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    Thank you funktrooper, that's exactly why I carry hollow points. A lesson I learned on some CD's from the Firearms Academy of Seattle,date the box of hollow points as to when you bought them, keep reloading(the pistol and magazine) withthe same factory loadsover and over (unless of course you have to use them). If you are ever unfortunate enough to wind up in court rest assured the D.A. will try to use the hollow pointsagainst you. Your argument (attorney of course) is the very reason funktrooper stated. Less chance of collateral damage and excellent stopping power. The reason for dating the boxes isso that when an "expert" test the loads he will know by that datethat they are all from the same batch, and they will be tested. "DO NOT CARRY RELOADS". If you wound up shooting reloads you will be "blasted" they will not all be the same hence the D.A. does not know what you shot. I do not know how many of you folks know about theFirearms and Academy of Seattle and there off shoot they started called"Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network", it's gone nation wide. It is on there website (just google it up)it and the classes are worth every single penny.One last comment, do not mix batches of any carry ammunition.

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    I am not that good of shot yet for the neck/throat/face.

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    Faceplant wrote:
    I am not that good of shot yet for the neck/throat/face.
    you mean thats why you have this handle? "Faceplant" because you are learning how to plant your shots on face? :P

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    +10000 on the reloads. I believe that the best policy is to find out what the local law enforcement uses and then use that ammo. If questioned on the lethality of your ammo simply tell them that you are using the same type as the local law enforcement. I doubt a prosecutor would try to convince anyone that the local police are using ammo that is designed for the express purpose of killing. I was given this advice some years ago by a friend that was a lieutenant in the Seattle PD.

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    virgil47 wrote:
    +10000 on the reloads. I believe that the best policy is to find out what the local law enforcement uses and then use that ammo. If questioned on the lethality of your ammo simply tell them that you are using the same type as the local law enforcement. I doubt a prosecutor would try to convince anyone that the local police are using ammo that is designed for the express purpose of killing. I was given this advice some years ago by a friend that was a lieutenant in the Seattle PD.
    That is exactly what my dad used to do with his personal firearms also. He carried the exact same brand and style that SPD issued for his service pistol his .45 and 9mm
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    LOL. So how many times per month or year do you guys call the local PD to find out what loads they carry? They do change from time to time you know.

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    FunkTrooper wrote:
    While there is no law some argue that the ammunition you use can be used against you in court. My friend was telling me awhile ago that he won't carry JHP because someone told him it wouldn't look good in court since JHP rounds are designed to "kill".
    My defense to that would be that I use JHP because they are less likely to go right through someone and hit something I didnt want to, which is important for me sense I live in an apartment. Oddly enough I use the same ammo to local PD use, at least from what im told

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    deanf wrote:
    LOL.* So how many times per month or year do you guys call the local PD to find out what loads they carry?* They do change from time to time you know.
    I don't think anyone said they call local PD's to ask. It was just being stated a a possible defense to a prosecutors assertion that the ammo used by someone is only designed to kill.

    I honestly couldn't care less what they use. I use what I am comfortable with and what I think through my own research will give me the results I want.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I should have mentioned about using what your local police department uses. Excellent advice. I was thinking of my own situation. Our local police use 9 MM's and I carry a .45.

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    Hey Maloney, does your local dept. have a SWAT team that uses .45s? In any case you might find the following PDF interesting. Firearms begin on pp22, ammo on pp27. I found it on the KCSO web page.

    I infer from the file that they prefer the heaviest bullet in any given caliber and that they'll leave an old favorite in there because it works and worked. KCSO has since changed to Federal HST, more because of availability problems with Gold Dot than by being surpassed by the HST in performance trials. This according to our friendly local motorcycle cop. However, in looking at test results, the HST does look a little better.

    My personal thought is to go with what you know to be effective for all criteria. There shouldn't be any real conflict with any sensible police recommendation. An overzealous prosecutor can choose any nit to try to hang you with. Your job is to find a lawyer with enough gun knowledge to catch these little attacks and turn them into positives.

    MD

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    Machoduck wrote:
    My personal thought is to go with what you know to be effective for all criteria.* There shouldn't be any real conflict with any sensible police recommendation.* An overzealous prosecutor can choose any nit to try to hang you with.* Your job is to find a lawyer with enough gun knowledge to catch these little attacks and turn them into positives.*

    MD
    +1

    That is my thoughts as well.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  23. #23
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    samaloney2006 wrote:
    Thank you funktrooper, that's exactly why I carry hollow points. A lesson I learned on some CD's from the Firearms Academy of Seattle,date the box of hollow points as to when you bought them, keep reloading (the pistol and magazine) withthe same factory loadsover and over (unless of course you have to use them). If you are ever unfortunate enough to wind up in court rest assured the D.A. will try to use the hollow pointsagainst you. Your argument (attorney of course) is the very reason funktrooper stated. Less chance of collateral damage and excellent stopping power. The reason for dating the boxes isso that when an "expert" test the loads he will know by that datethat they are all from the same batch, and they will be tested. "DO NOT CARRY RELOADS". If you wound up shooting reloads you will be "blasted" they will not all be the same hence the D.A. does not know what you shot. I do not know how many of you folks know about theFirearms and Academy of Seattle and there off shoot they started called"Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network", it's gone nation wide. It is on there website (just google it up)it and the classes are worth every single penny.One last comment, do not mix batches of any carry ammunition.
    The issue of "Reloads for Self Defense" has reached Urban Legend status. Please name (or cite) ONE case in the US where one has been charged, prosecuted, or otherwise hassled for using Reloads rather than Factory Loads for Self Defense.

    This Urban Legend is promoted by none other than Massad Ayoob through his books and lectures. He keeps referring to a case he testified in that involved reloads but the case was not one of a SD shooting, but a case where one Daniel Bias was charged with killing his wife while lying in bed with her. He claimed she was attempting suicide. This incident occured in Feb 1989.

    Mr. Ayoob has made lots of mileage and money from this incident in his "warning" about not using Handloads for SD. ONE case is all he, or anyone else, can cite. Where are the others. Certainly there are lots of "motivated" prosecutors out there.

    The FACT is that laws allow for the use of Deadly Force for Self Defense. They don't specify what weapon, caliber, etc., just the term "Deadly Force". You can use an Axe, Bat, Claw Hammer, Gun, Rifle, Spear, Sword, Dagger, (and on and on) and the act of Self Defense will be legal as long as it fits the parameters of the LAW. If it doesn't, it won't matter if you used factory loads that Massad Ayoob personally purchased and autographed for you.

    The only State where a handload might get you in trouble might be New Jersey is you load hollow points. But then it wouldn't matter if the hollow point rounds were "home brew" or not, even factory hollow points are illegal.

    Once again, where are all the citations of cases where handloads were an issue in a Self Defense shooting?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    I typically carry the ammo that one or another of the local LEO's carry. HST, Ranger, Gold Dot, or Golden Saber are all carried by local PD's. Here's the argument in court:

    "Well, I figured that the Police Department has a lot more knowledge and money to spend on testing these thingsthan I do, so I use what theychose, figuring if they trustBRAND Xenough to use it todefend me and my family, then I should trust it too."

    Any half-way decent defense attorney should be able to lead you to that during questioning. And if the prosecutor attacks you after that, then they are vicariously attacking all of the decision-makers at the police department at the same time. Which they would be stupid to do so, and in doing so it would make the prosecutor sound completely ridiculous.

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    Yesterday since I'm here in Alaska I was getting some new jhp's. My 1911 would not load gold dots even from my Wilson combat mag so I got golden sabers and they don't have any issue loading.

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