Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: Good Idea?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    I've been meaning to share this for almost 2 months now, but never got around to it. It's a true story about something that ended up not happening.

    I work for H&R Block during the tax season and had the responsibility of opening the office in the mornings. In mid-March the sun doesn't come up around here until after 8:00 am.

    One morning I motored on into work and parked in the back. As I exited the vehicle a car pulled up about 25' from me and a guy in a hoodie jumped out, carrying a baseball bat and walking very purposefully in my direction.

    Not being able to carry in the office due to employer restrictions I nonetheless had my .45 in my briefcase, which was slung over my shoulder. I'd practiced this drill many times at home, so I dove my hand into the briefcase, instantly retrieving my handgun and pulling it from the bag. I showed it to the BG and asked "Are you sure you want to do this?" (I was so scared my level tone was a shock, even to me.)

    His reply? " I guess not." He then returned to his car and left. I never got a good look at him and all I know about the car is that it was a blue mid-size 4 door with no plates. There was no point in calling the PD or Sheriff because I had no identifying information, so I just continued my normal routine.

    It's a scary feeling to have to pull a gun on another human being. Some of you know this. The upshot is that my hands had a slight tremor to them for the next hour or so until I got busy enough to be distracted from what had just transpired.

    Like I said, it's a true story of something that ended up not happening. I ended up not being killed or seriously injured. However, if he had approached me in the same manner a year ago I'd have been a victim.

    That's why, when someone asks me why I carry a firearm, my standard response is "Because I refuse to be a victim."


    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  2. #2
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    Bookman wrote:
    I've been meaning to share this for almost 2 months now, but never got around to it. It's a true story about something that ended up not happening.

    I work for H&R Block during the tax season and had the responsibility of opening the office in the mornings. In mid-March the sun doesn't come up around here until after 8:00 am.

    One morning I motored on into work and parked in the back. As I exited the vehicle a car pulled up about 25' from me and a guy in a hoodie jumped out, carrying a baseball bat and walking very purposefully in my direction.

    Not being able to carry in the office due to employer restrictions I nonetheless had my .45 in my briefcase, which was slung over my shoulder. I'd practiced this drill many times at home, so I dove my hand into the briefcase, instantly retrieving my handgun and pulling it from the bag. I showed it to the BG and asked "Are you sure you want to do this?" (I was so scared my level tone was a shock, even to me.)

    His reply? " I guess not." He then returned to his car and left.

    It's a scary feeling to have to pull a gun on another human being. Some of you know this. The upshot is that my hands had a slight tremor to them for the next hour or so until I got busy enough to be distracted from what had just transpired.

    Like I said, it's a true story of something that ended up not happening. I ended up not being killed or seriously injured. However, if he had approached me in the same manner a year ago I'd have been a victim.

    That's why, when someone asks me why I carry a firearm, my standard response is "Because I refuse to be a victim."

    What did you report to the police?

    Was the baseball bat guy alone or was there someone else in the car?



  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    No one else in the car. Nothing to report to the police. I had no identifying information, so reporting it would have been a waste of everyone's time. I don't even know the color of his skin.

    "Officer, all I know is that he was medium height, wearing dark clothing, driving a blue car."

    Not much to go on.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  4. #4
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    Bookman wrote:
    No one else in the car. Nothing to report to the police. I had no identifying information, so reporting it would have been a waste of everyone's time. I don't even know the color of his skin.

    "Officer, all I know is that he was medium height, wearing dark clothing, driving a blue car."

    Not much to go on.
    A car 25' away from you and you didn't get the car make/model or even the tag? And he walked even closer to you and you didn't get but height and dark clothes? Even though you spoke to each other?

    Fascinating.

    Ah, maybe he's never done it before. Probably, he'll never do that again.

    Probably OK.

    No problem.



  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    1,424

    Post imported post

    The sun wasn't up yet and the area isn't well lighted. Mostly what I saw was shadows and headlights.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

  6. #6
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    Bookman wrote:
    The sun wasn't up yet and the area isn't well lighted. Mostly what I saw was shadows and headlights.
    How far would acar have gotten in your area without license plates if you called it in immediately?

    And, hmmm, wait a minute...you pulled a big ole honkin' .45 out and pointed it at a guy, right?But hejust walks to his car and drives off.Could he ditch the bat, call up the cops and say "A crazy guy witha .45 just threatened to kill me!" orsomethingsimilar to that?Wouldn't that would be unfortunate, especially if he could describe the gun?


    Well, at least nothing happened and everybody is safe.


  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hodgenville, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,261

    Post imported post

    That's why I carry EVERYWHERE exceptjail.

    If I go to a hospital and have to be sedated....security gets my weapon. If not....*I* keep it. Dinner....cutting grass.... EVERYWHERE.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Scranton, Pa, ,
    Posts
    270

    Post imported post

    HankT wrote:
    A car 25' away from you and you didn't get the car make/model or even the tag? And he walked even closer to you and you didn't get but height and dark clothes? Even though you spoke to each other?

    Fascinating.

    Ah, maybe he's never done it before. Probably, he'll never do that again.

    Probably OK.

    No problem.

    "all I know about the car is that it was a blue mid-size 4 door with no plates"

    What other tags are you referring to Hank? Oh you must mean the VIN, yeah I always jot that down too...

  9. #9
    Lone Star Veteran Hokie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Reston, VA, , USA
    Posts
    162

    Post imported post

    Bookman wrote:
    No one else in the car. Nothing to report to the police. I had no identifying information, so reporting it would have been a waste of everyone's time. I don't even know the color of his skin.

    "Officer, all I know is that he was medium height, wearing dark clothing, driving a blue car."

    Not much to go on.
    You should still report it if for no other reason for stats. Estimates of defensive gun use are all nice and good but a good hard number is even better. The more reported cases of self defense with a gun the better.
    "Capitalism and communism stand at opposite poles. Their essential difference is this: The communist, seeing the rich man and his fine home, says: 'No man should have so much.' The capitalist, seeing the same thing, says: 'All men should have as much.'"- Phelps Adams

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Holloman AFB, , USA
    Posts
    394

    Post imported post

    thats the problem, because it was solved "peacefully" and nothing happened nobody reports it. I honestly don't see a reason to report it. I would have done the same thing. Continue on with your day.

    Good job btw. Nicely Done.

  11. #11
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    YllwFvr wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    A car 25' away from you and you didn't get the car make/model or even the tag? And he walked even closer to you and you didn't get but height and dark clothes? Even though you spoke to each other?

    Fascinating.

    Ah, maybe he's never done it before. Probably, he'll never do that again.

    Probably OK.

    No problem.

    "all I know about the car is that it was a blue mid-size 4 door with no plates"

    What other tags are you referring to Hank? Oh you must mean the VIN, yeah I always jot that down too...
    VIN? What the heck are you taling about Fvr? You're not making any sense.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Fallon, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    5,580

    Post imported post

    Wow Hank, you seem to be the king of armchair QB here.

    You were not there. If it took place as quickly as is likely, I am not surprised a bit that details were not available. It is simple to tell others how YOU would (or could) have handled the incident, but the bottom line is that only TWO persons were there experiencing it first-hand. Any conjecture or woulda you come up with has no basis.


    Kudos to the OP for handling it well.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  13. #13
    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Herington, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    1,005

    Post imported post

    Good job Bookman and glad you are safe. Too bad there was no info. Hope there's no "next time" for ya, but things bein as they are there probably will be.
    Keep your powder dry !
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

  14. #14
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
    Posts
    885

    Post imported post

    Bravo to the OP here. He was aware, armed and prepared to use it. He had practiced for just such a situation. Seems to me he handled it almost perfectly - and I'm so glad the punk got the message and went away. Perfect gunfight... the one that never happened.

    I'm sure he will do more of the same, and possibly think to note more details of the attacker in the event it happens again.

    The necessity and advisability of reporting such an encounter vary widely from place to place. If you are in an area that is definitely gun hostile, you are probably better off not reporting anything unless you are hurt or are forced to shoot. I don't know if his gun was "legal" to carry in that parking lot, even if he had a CCW. If not, or no "permit," then he'd be vulnerable to persecution (no misspell) regardless of any other facts in the case. I'm not up on Washington law.

    I'd like to see statistics on how many bad guys actually do call the police to report something like this. If they have a record or are wanted, that seems highly unlikely. The novice or first time punk would probably not even think about it. I would not let that seemingly remote possibility motivate me to call - and get into a bad situation if the "law" was likely to come down hard on me for being armed.

    I certainly wouldn't volunteer to be a martyr for the idea that such encounters need to be reported and recorded!
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    HankT wrote:
    Bookman wrote:
    The sun wasn't up yet and the area isn't well lighted. Mostly what I saw was shadows and headlights.
    ...And, hmmm, wait a minute...you pulled a big ole honkin' .45 out and pointed it at a guy, right?But hejust walks to his car and drives off.Could he ditch the bat, call up the cops and say "A crazy guy witha .45 just threatened to kill me!" orsomethingsimilar to that?Wouldn't that would be unfortunate, especially if he could describe the gun?...
    First thing- to the OP,congratulations for coming out of the situation unscathed. We all hope and pray we can do the same.

    But secondly, HankT isright. I have had at least three students tell me that although THEY were the actual victim, the assailant to-be called the police and reported THEM as a gun-wielding menace to society.

    Guess who got a follow-up visit from the police?

    If you're ever in a similar situation, please call 911and get your version on the record. First one to call gets to be the real victim.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    949

    Post imported post

    TheMrMitch wrote:
    That's why I carry EVERYWHERE exceptjail.

    If I go to a hospital and have to be sedated....security gets my weapon. If not....*I* keep it. Dinner....cutting grass.... EVERYWHERE.
    Curious. Exactly how do you turnover your firearm to security in such a situation? Why do they just not confiscate it, and call the police on you?

  17. #17
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Invisible Mode
    Posts
    6,217

    Post imported post

    BB62 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Bookman wrote:
    The sun wasn't up yet and the area isn't well lighted. Mostly what I saw was shadows and headlights.
    ...And, hmmm, wait a minute...you pulled a big ole honkin' .45 out and pointed it at a guy, right?But hejust walks to his car and drives off.Could he ditch the bat, call up the cops and say "A crazy guy witha .45 just threatened to kill me!" orsomethingsimilar to that?Wouldn't that would be unfortunate, especially if he could describe the gun?...
    First thing- to the OP,congratulations for coming out of the situation unscathed. We all hope and pray we can do the same.

    But secondly, HankT isright. I have had at least three students tell me that although THEY were the actual victim, the assailant to-be called the police and reported THEM as a gun-wielding menace to society.

    Guess who got a follow-up visit from the police?

    If you're ever in a similar situation, please call 911and get your version on the record. First one to call gets to be the real victim.


    Yep, it makes no sense at all to put oneself at risk of getting jammed upby a surprise visit from the po-po.Nor does it make sense to take on the risk of some narrow-minded litigation-prone guy setting up a LAC and then cashing in on some vagueness in the retelling of some self-defense event. There are plenty of scam artists out there and some of them would jump at such an opportunity because it would mean "more money for me."

    S'the way the world is nowadays...


    BTW, here is a thread discussing proposed gun carry laws and one of the proposals would be quite pertinent in the OP's case:

    Situation 1: LAC pulls out gun and defends self but does not shoot the gun.

    Law: LAC required to report incident to local police, giving pertinent details.Data from such reports will be compiledand used for regularLE and public policy uses.




    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/25701.html



    There've been some interesting comments made there.




  18. #18
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
    Posts
    885

    Post imported post

    Yep, it makes no sense at all to put oneself at risk of getting jammed upby a surprise visit from the po-po.Nor does it make sense to take on the risk of some narrow-minded litigation-prone guy setting up a LAC and then cashing in on some vagueness in the retelling of some self-defense event. There are plenty of scam artists out there and some of them would jump at such an opportunity because it would mean "more money for me."

    S'the way the world is, nowadays...
    Quite possible... but I think it makes a big difference where you are, where you live.

    I can't see that getting any traction here where I am. The people in this area know me, and so do the police/sheriff. The number of crimes/criminals is so small that our county/city "jail" stands empty most of the time.

    We live in different worlds.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487

    Post imported post

    wrightme wrote:
    Wow Hank, you seem to be the king of armchair QB here.
    This is only a new thing because Hank took a little hiatus.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    West Jordan, UT, ,
    Posts
    98

    Post imported post

    wrightme wrote:
    Wow Hank, you seem to be the king of armchair QB here.

    You were not there. If it took place as quickly as is likely, I am not surprised a bit that details were not available. It is simple to tell others how YOU would (or could) have handled the incident, but the bottom line is that only TWO persons were there experiencing it first-hand. Any conjecture or woulda you come up with has no basis.


    Kudos to the OP for handling it well.
    +1 The first time you find yourself in that kind of a spot you learn that adrenalin

    really messes with you. It's easy to armchair afterwards, but when the sweats on your hands and your heart is beating in your throat because you can't believe some jack-a** is going to make you shoot him, the thought process can easily resort to "one thing at a time" mode.

    If any of you out there did better the first time you were in that spot then "Well done", but don't second guess Bookman. No of us knows wether we'd done any better or not.

    "Well done" Bookman! One less victim-one more BG checking his drawers for stains.


  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona, U.S.
    Posts
    625

    Post imported post

    Looks like Hank is back with his usual and monotonous arm-chair quarterbacking or trolling to be more accurate.

    As to the actual event that occurred, obviously none of us were there but it sounds like you handled it well. A few points to examine here, nonetheless:

    1. The individual was suspicious but had not yet assaulted or attempted to assault you here. Theoretically, he could have had the baseball bat for any number of reasons and simply wanted to ask you for a cigarette. However, his actions were incredibly suspicious giving you probable cause to confront him about his behavior. I would have therefore done basically the same thing. I would have made the gun visible (OC) but not yet pointed it at him and maybe have taken a few steps back. I probably would have rephrased thequestion of "Are you sure you want to do this?" to "Hold it right there! What are you doing?" If at that point the individual kept approaching, I would have pointed the gun at him and followed with more serious commands such as "Stop or I'll shoot." OCing a baseball bat may be as legal as OCing a gun in your hand but is extremely suspicious and enough to make people feel threatened and respond accordingly.

    2. In the case of not being able to get a proper description, I may have also not reported it to the police. You have the Constitutional rights not to tell the authorities anything. The problem with calling the police in some cases is they have you but not them or in the case if both of you reported it, then it now becomes word against word. Had you have gotten a good description, it may have then been a good idea reporting it. However, in your case calling them may have just opened another can of worms resulting in at minimum a lengthly interrogation or at worst a trip to jail.

    3. To answer Hank's ridiculous comments, it is very common for anyone not to get a good description of an attacker. There is scientific research behind the effects of adrenaline on the human body and mind. When someone is in "fight or flight" mode they aren't concerned about descriptive features of an attacker other than what is relevant to fighting or fleeing from them. Your brain is only focused on stopping them and therefore it is only long after the situation is over that you then realize that you "should have" made better mental notes of the person. There is a reason for this. If a person is coming at you with a baseball bat and your brain is taking notes of the character's height/weight, age, race, and clothing then that is time spent not running away or preparing to fight them which could cost youyour life. Why I need to explain this is beyond me as the rest of us understand this but I put it here in the hopes that the other individual here will finally "get it."



  22. #22
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    3,958

    Post imported post

    The mind percieves the threat from the weapon (bat) and is searching for other weapons. All other information is extraneous to the threat. You want that 'threat' nullified. That's all there is. Descriptions happen after the mind processes the threat. The encounter is only several seconds so there's not much time to do all that.

    There's no thought to 'drop the bat'... get on the ground. It's 'Get Away From ME Or I Will Shoot You'... All the rest of this stuff follows if the command is not obeyed. Man is still a hunter... and the 'coat and colorof the beast' matters not as the length of tooth and claw.

    The OP did well. This is why we carry.

  23. #23
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    on a rock in the james river
    Posts
    1,453

    Post imported post

    What if the bat had been in a holster?

    Well done bookman. Doubt if I would have reported anything either, based on your comments. Why answer a bunch of questions about why I was brandishing?



    On the other hand , if he was that close , I may have just shot him.
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

    --Robert A. Heinlein

    Hey NSA! *&$# you. Record this--- MOLON LABE!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    3,958

    Post imported post

    riverrat10k wrote:
    What if the bat had been in a holster?

    Is thatridiculous comment supposed to be 'cute'?

    A stranger approaching withbat in hand... (where there is no reason to be carrying a 'bat')isa reasonable assumption of brandishing a weapon with some criminal intent to do harm or intimidation.

    Counter-brandishing is still 'illegal' (here at least) but 'presenting' in a self defense situation preparatory to firing, but not having to actually fire on the perp most likely will NOT put you in the jack-pot. Who's going to complain? The perp?

    Oh... the 'law' says if I draw my weapon I must use it... so I 'have to shoot' 'cause that's how the law reads.

    Well... 'bout a month ago I was hookin' up a DVD/VCR when my mom-in-law yelled "There's a man running in the yard... he just jumped the fence!" This is a desert area... not even an incorporated'town'... in Open Range. 'Wife wasn't home but my sis-in-law was. No sooner she said that... 'n I hear somebody beatin' on the front door. I opened the door (There's a steel 'safety door' in front of that rather than a normal screen door) 'n this kid is yellin'... 'Let me in... he trying to kill me... he's got a gun." I had a pistol on me... but turned around and grabbed a 'shortie' Rem. 870. With this in hand... I open the door to the veranda... 'n tell this kid to 'sit down'. He did so... and is babbling a mile a minute. I see he's scared but I'm still cautious tokeep some distance between us. My sis-in-law locks the steel door and shuts the front door. Then... she secures theback door while dialing 911. This car comes around the corner in a cloud of dust (dirt road) 'n slides to a stop alongside my gate. This guy gets out and cames at a trot thru my dubble gate (posted No Trespassing) with something extendedin his right hand. Turns out it's a baseball bat. I'm still on the veranda. I bring the shotgun to port arms and tell him: "Get off my property... NOW!" He continuesa few steps... saw the shotgun... stops and says: "I'll think about it!" I came off the veranda... jacked a round (there's nothing like the sound a 12 ga. being chambered) 'putting the pistol grip in the cup of my right hip (leveled) in a shooting stance and told him: "You better think a little faster!" He turned on his heel and ran to his car. Then spun wheels in the dirt and went back in the direction he'd come. I noticed enough about him... but my focus was on the bat and his free hand... while gauging the distance between us. I was prepared to shoot him had he not turned around. Now... I could have told him... 'drop the bat... get on the ground' but didn't. I didn't consider that 'til later. I WAS mentally preparing to shoot... all that should'a, would'a, didn't comes later.

    I didn't have my 'cop hat' on... I haven't worn one of those for a number of years... I'm not in 'arrest' mode... I'm in 'kill mode' 'til the threat is gone. 'Wasn't too long before I had Sheriff's deputies all over the place. I'd put the shotgun back in the house (on the coffee table).The deputy asked about it (present location)... and noted my sidearm. He did ask what it was loaded with... (000 buck followed by semijacketed HP slugs)... 'n grinned. They took the 'victim' off... and then effected an arrest on the perp. Apparently the perp had also hit him with the car.

  25. #25
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,448

    Post imported post

    Senora Rebel,

    Ballsy to go out and get distracted from the first guy, I don't have to tell you that he could have been a threat also, but yeah I can understand preventing a felony assault on your own property.

    To the OP,

    One thing to add. Reporting this 'non event' may have saved some innocent civilian who is less 'survival oriented' from suffering a much worse fate. Cops may have been able to snare the guy based on location and vague description.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •