Open Carry Saturday, May 16

imported post

Hey dudes, Parabellum and I will be open carrying next Saturday, and we figured it'd be more fun if we invited you lot of patriots (or scofflaw felons, if you're speaking with Fuhrer Flynn). Here are the details:

None.

No details, because we'd like to keep this particular exercise of constitutional rights more discrete. All I can tell you is that it'll probably be between 12 noon and 4pm.

Please pm me or parabellum if you can come with!


I would like to hear people's thoughts on two things.

1. Can someone please point me to the statute regarding the enforceability of rules on private property? My understanding is that disobeying signs does not constitute trespass, can I get some documentation on that? I'm coming up empty.

2. Anyone have opinions on our demeanor and strategy of conduct for this?

imported post

All I know is, sign or no sign ,if you don't have permission to be on the property .You are trespassing.It is your responsibility to know where you are.

imported post

I'm sorry friend, but that's not even close to accurate. Implied consent is an extremely important concept you are ignoring.

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0943.pdf pages 5-6

imported post

** deleted **

imported post

(a) If a sign at least 11 inches square is placed in at least 2 conspicuous places for every 40 acres to be protected. The sign must carry an appropriate notice and the name of the person giving the notice followed by the word "owner" if the person giving the notice is the holder of legal title to the land and by the word "occupant" if the person giving the notice is not the holder of legal title but is a lawful occupant of the land. Proof that appropriate signs as provided in this paragraph were erected or in existence upon the premises to be protected prior to the event complained of shall be prima facie proof that the premises to be protected were posted as provided in this paragraph.

Parabellum turned this rediculous law up. Two places. Let's play where's Waldo! So, how to find out if an establishment has followed the law?

imported post

I need to make a trip to Milwaukee, So hopefully I can plan it for next weekend and join you guys. We have a gun show in Iron River WI that I was hoping to attend, I'll try to get to it on Friday instead.



PM me some details please. Thanx

imported post

I wonder why you would want to challenge a property owner if he has a sign saying no guns? If that is your plan, it makes no sense to me to do that. If we want others to respect our rights to carry, we should respect others rights to not allow guns on their property. Am I missing something here?

imported post

I don't disagree with you, Max. I welcome opinions such as yours, that's kind of the point of my original post. Here are some issues I'm mulling over.

1. Since they are not required to post at the entrance, it'll be very easy for us to run against this law.

2. We're looking for places to legally open carry in order to normalize the action, but we're being discriminated against by these establishments. It is their right, but what is the best course of action to change their minds?

imported post

As I've said before I HOPE that any business that doesn't support my constitutional rights would please post a sign to let me know.

I figure in the past week I've probably patronized many businesses that don't support my rights and I didn't even know it.

Depending on the business I might avoid them all together and leave it at the loss of my business.

For other businesses I might write a short letter to the owner thanking the owner for posting a signindicating their unwillingness to let law abiding citizens exercise their constitutional rights in their establishment so that myself and others don't inadvertently patronize their place of business. And I'd probably add something like "I am a member of several 'sportsmen' websites/online forums with thousands of members and in order to respect the wishes of private property owners we make a list of stores that disaprove of our law-abiding citizens conducting themselves in a lawful way inside their store. I will make sure to pass along the information that you don't want sportsmen patronizing your store. Please let me know if your policy changes so that I may inform the members as such."

I don't know what the trespass laws are but if a business doesn't have clearly posted signs, until i'm asked to leave, i don't see how i can be citied (should be cited)for trespassing in a private establishement that has public access.

but we're being discriminated against by these establishments. It is their right, but what is the best course of action to change their minds?

Click to expand...

Don't shop there, don't spend any money there and let EVERY sportsmen you know, know that law abiding citizens exercising their rights are not welcome to do so.

Are you talking about Grand Ave? I would like to know if they are telling you "no firearms allowed" I work just across the skywalk from Grand Ave Mall and myself and MANY of our staff go there, some on a daily basis. I'd SURE like to let our staff know if Grand Ave. doesn't support gun rights. And I'll write a letter to the owners of the mall Ashkenazy Acquisitions Corporation.

Ashkenazy Acquisitions Corp.
433 5th Avenue, 2nd Floor
New York, NY 10016
Phone: 212-213-4444
Fax: 212-213-5245

Also it might be helpful to have a thread stickied with un-gun-friendly stores. I'd sure like to "kindly" email the link to that thread to the stores ownership groups so they can see that the general law-abiding public is being made aware of their lack of support for law abiding citizens.

imported post

Grand Avenue security handed me a small card that had the mall rules on it - it had no firearms clearly printed there. Also, the mall cop told me that I was not welcome on their premises with a gun, and threatened to ban me entirely unless I said that I would not come onto their property with a gun again.



Hows them apples?

imported post

*

imported post

Pointman wrote:

From what I understand the mall is the landlord and can't ask you to leave, only individual stores (the tenants) can ask you to leave their individual store, assuming you're not breaking the law or actively causing problems.

Click to expand...

I believe your thinking Minnesota carry law. I know of no such Wisconsin landlord/tenant statute as it pertains to fire arms.

imported post

eleuthera wrote:

I'm sorry friend, but that's not even close to accurate. Implied consent is an extremely important concept you are ignoring.

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0943.pdf pages 5-6

Click to expand...

Check out 943.13 of the statutes.

imported post

32 HR, I don't understand. The law says that you don't need express consent to be on people property if implied consent exists. You can't possibly be trespassing in any normal case of implied consent. Explicit "Permission" gets tossed out the window if you're on land that you have implied consent to be on. Signs have absolutely nothing to do with it.

imported post

eleuthera wrote:

32 HR, I don't understand. The law says that you don't need express consent to be on people property if implied consent exists. You can't possibly be trespassing in any normal case of implied consent. Explicit "Permission" gets tossed out the window if you're on land that you have implied consent to be on. Signs have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Click to expand...

Trespassing might be the wrong way of looking at it.

I would say, that unless you can (with in reason) see a sign or other posting that states "you and your gun are not welcome" or a locked door, gate, or fence, you are fine entering the place (not Gov. places, schools etc.). Without any posting, I don't think it could be trespassing, until you are asked to leave, and you don't. I guess it would be understandable that you entered a mall (not knowing about any "no guns" rule). How could you have known? I have never seen any sign on any door. So the mall could never press any charge of trespassing, because when asked to, you left.

In the long run, this is how I am looking at the school zone thing. It is understandable not to bring guns in, or on a school grounds (unless you work at the place), but at the same time, 1000 feet is about two blocks. Now, I do not have any kids, and only know of a handful of schools in the metro Milwaukee area, so how is it that I am to know where these 1000 foot zones are? To tell you the truth, I was going to go for a walk down Lake Drive in Whitefish Bay and Shorewood, but I have to Google the full path, to make sure I don't "walk" into jail? I understand the law tells us that you have to go in the school zone knowingly to be charged with a crime, but I don't think I want to be the first to test that one out if I can help it. Think the city will put up any signs? I bet not.:banghead:



BTW, the Lake Drive walkmight be nice, now that it's warmer out. I'll spend a few days checking it to see if I amable.:banghead:

imported post

Great news! Pointman got us a copy of the school zone map. The ones I saw were colored and had greater detail, but now we have something to work with!
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/25706.html

We may be heading out of doors this weekend if we can't figure out this traspassing law....

imported post

We're heading to dt milwaukee in the next 20 minutes. We've got 3 carrying so far and copies of the school zone maps and everything else. Hit my or Jesus's cell if you want to last minute roll with!

imported post

Just OC'd with 3 other guys (springfield1911,Parabellum, andanother friend of mine) in the 3rd ward downtown for ~3 hours - no cops, no people freaking out, just a good time. The fact that we weren't stopped a single time really ecourages me - perhaps we've arrived?

Edit: some more detailed info.

We did contact the press, but I didn't tell them exactly where we were going, only a general area. I also asked them not to come unless they heard sirens :-D

There were a couple people made obviously uncomfortable by us, but just as many were engaging and unbothered. Most people fell somewhere in the middle: kind of a "what the heck? whatever, I'm busy."

When we did notice people watching us or pointing, we'd just go back to the old standby: "smile and wave, boys, smile and wave." We'd usually get a wave back, or at least a nod.

Lady in a shoe store seemed much more bothered by the fact that I wasn't willing to spend >$100 on a pair of shoes, rather than my gun. yuppielolz.

We stopped in a coffee shop, had a few good conversations - the people behind the counter asked the usual curiousityquestions "are you a cop? do you have a permit?"

This got interesting because towards the end of the conversation, the guy behind the counter asked us where he could get a gun. I'll mark that one up in the win column

And an old lady there said that Jesus looked more likely to be a cop than me, since he looked like he was undercover. She walked in when we were all there with guns, talkedwith us a bit, and sat down to enjoy some coffee.

Then we spent about 45 minutes at the river talking to Jarmis before heading home. We'll throw a couple pictures up soon.

People really need to hear about this! 3 hours without a 911 call? Or, at least without a response? Awesome!

imported post

Good job, wish I could have been there. Glad to see there weren't any problems. The comment about Jesus being an undercover cop is hilarious. Did you by chance see any signs at all?

Ben

imported post

no signs, but we spent the vast majority of our time outside....