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Thread: I forsee a toy gun ban... deputy shoots kid playing cops and robbers...

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,6121270.story

    Kid was open carrying a toy gun on his bicycle, police detain the kid only to shoot him later.

    I'm curious if the toy gun had the little orange cap on the gun... the kid is stable at least, thankfully...
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    When I saw the title about a kid playing I wondered how could that happen but after reading the story I understand. I dont know the details or if they were reported accurately but at 15 he "should" have known better. I would expect that the numer of 15 year olds riding around with real guns outnumer those with toy guns.

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    I wonder which one he was playing: COP or ROBBER? :P

    Sad to hear about this, but I agree, at 15 years of age he should know better than to point a toy gun at people with real guns. Next year he'll be old enough to be driving a few tons of metal on the roads and highways. I hope a little maturity sets in before then. I would hate to hear about him playing "NASCAR" on the public roads and hurting himself or others.

    I hope he has a quick recovery and that the officer is ok emotionally... 'cuz that would suck to find out it was a toy gun. Righteous shoot, or not.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    nukechaser wrote:
    I wonder which one he was playing: COP or ROBBER? :P
    Well this was in LA, so if he was black or mexican he was playing a robber of course, practicing for when he grows up. </self hating racism aside>

    I'm going to wait on more information about the story. I'm curious if he flung the barrel in the general direction or intentionally pointed in at the officer.
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    nukechaser wrote:
    I wonder which one he was playing: COP or ROBBER? :P
    Well this was in LA, so if he was black or mexican he was playing a robber of course, practicing for when he grows up. </self hating racism aside>

    I'm going to wait on more information about the story. I'm curious if he flung the barrel in the general direction or intentionally pointed in at the officer.
    ...or if he was wearing an FBI hat at the time....:quirky

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    nukechaser wrote:
    I wonder which one he was playing: COP or ROBBER? :P
    Well this was in LA, so if he was black or mexican he was playing a robber of course, practicing for when he grows up. </self hating racism aside>

    I'm going to wait on more information about the story. I'm curious if he flung the barrel in the general direction or intentionally pointed in at the officer.
    ...or if he was wearing an FBI hat at the time....:quirky
    Better would be a TSA hat for the "racial profiling"
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    It's already illegal to openly carry a "replica" gun. CA law actually requires all toy guns to be either transparent or brightly colored so it's obvious they are fake. Anything not brightly colored is considered a "replica" for legal purposes. I'm guessing this was a BB gun, as it's actually pretty hard to find realistic looking toy guns in CA.

    Like everybody else, I'm wondering why a 15-yr-old is playing "cops & robbers." My first guess is he has a lower mental age due to a mental disability. That's the only way this story makes sense to me... unless the kid was actually going for suicide by cop.
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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Like everybody else, I'm wondering why a 15-yr-old is playing "cops & robbers." My first guess is he has a lower mental age due to a mental disability. That's the only way this story makes sense to me... unless the kid was actually going for suicide by cop.
    I'm glad someone else stated the suspicion I had. I work at a mental health center and I tend to be leery of making such statements unless in jest.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    As far as I am concerned, as public servant who supposedly lay their lives on the line every day police shouldn't have such itchy trigger fingers.

    I know I wasn't there and all that, but I just can't see myself shooting a 15 year old kid who wasn't actively aggressing against my person, regardless of what he was carrying.

    Our society has become hysterical. This is not a good thing.

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    marshaul wrote:
    ... Our society has become hysterical. This is not a good thing.
    Agreed, society needs a hysterectomy. (ok, my tongue is now firmly plantedin my cheek)

    Technically, only women can be hysterical, since it is they who have the womb. But I get your point.



    I hear the rumble strips warning me that I am drifting out of the lane into the area of "off-topic"... ok, tongue removed from cheek... back onto the topic at hand...

    I wonder if the shooting was caught on dash-cam or other video?



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    marshaul wrote:
    As far as I am concerned, as public servant who supposedly lay their lives on the line every day police shouldn't have such itchy trigger fingers.

    I know I wasn't there and all that, but I just can't see myself shooting a 15 year old kid who wasn't actively aggressing against my person, regardless of what he was carrying.

    Our society has become hysterical. This is not a good thing.
    How do you define "actively agressing"? You tell someone to drop their weapon and they turn and point it straight at you and you stand there waiting until they pull the trigger to decide to shoot back? I don't know that is what happened but I am not going to wait until the pull the trigger even if they are 10 years old. A bullet fired by a 15 year old can kill you as quickly as one fired by a 50 year old.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    PT111 wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    As far as I am concerned, as public servant who supposedly lay their lives on the line every day police shouldn't have such itchy trigger fingers.

    I know I wasn't there and all that, but I just can't see myself shooting a 15 year old kid who wasn't actively aggressing against my person, regardless of what he was carrying.

    Our society has become hysterical. This is not a good thing.
    How do you define "actively agressing"? You tell someone to drop their weapon and they turn and point it straight at you and you stand there waiting until they pull the trigger to decide to shoot back? I don't know that is what happened but I am not going to wait until the pull the trigger even if they are 10 years old. A bullet fired by a 15 year old can kill you as quickly as one fired by a 50 year old.
    The laws of physics must not be the same in California.
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    marshaul wrote:
    I know I wasn't there and all that, but I just can't see myself shooting a 15 year old kid who wasn't actively aggressing against my person, regardless of what he was carrying.
    I don't think the age makes any difference, but for the record some 15-yr-olds are just as dangerous as their 25-yr-old counterparts.

    Also, brandishing a firearm is an act of aggression, IMO. It is a threat of imminent violence. Just as firing the gun at you is, whether the shooter actually hits his target or not.

    Now, I'll agree with the rest of what you said. In some cases cops get itchy trigger fingers, and sometimes get away with manslaughter. Some cops are way too scared/jumpy to be in such a danger-prone and abuse-prone job.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Like I said, I wasn't there. However, I stand by my statement that if this kid was, in fact, playing cops & robbers and not a violent sociopath, I would have done my duty as a police officer and laid my life on the line long enough to find out before I shot him.

    That's the whole reason we have police: someone skilled and confident enough that they don't just shoot at the first sign of danger, like a citizen might do in a panic.

    As it stands, it's exactly the opposite. As a citizen, you'd better hope the guy you shoot in self-defense isn't carrying a toy. As a cop, well...

    If this is how police are going to behave, I say society would be just fine relying on armed citizens for crime deterrent and prevention.

    With all that said, none of us were there. It's possible this kid was anything but "playing cops and robbers". But from what little we're given in this news article, this just sounds like yet another incident of a cop with either too little restraint or not enough balls to do the job.

    And for all those apologists out there, I will reiterate that I have nothing against police in principle. I do have major problems with what the police have become in modern America, and as such, individual officers who act in accordance with what I view to be the problems with modern policing will suffer the brunt of my criticism.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Like I said, I wasn't there. However, I stand by my statement that if this kid was, in fact, playing cops & robbers and not a violent sociopath, I would have done my duty as a police officer and laid my life on the line long enough to find out before I shot him.

    That's the whole reason we have police: someone skilled and confident enough that they don't just shoot at the first sign of danger, like a citizen might do in a panic.
    uhh... what? Even in the Rules of Engagement...

    1. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE FORCE TO DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST ATTACK OR THREATS OF ATTACK.

    In the Marine code... *sigh* whatever the code is... the close combat manual has this..
    "Level 5: Assaultive (Lethal Force). The subject usually has a weapon and will either kill or injure someone if he/she is not stopped immediately and brought under control. The subject must be controlled by the use of deadly force with or without a firearm or weapon"

    Weapon, not specifying working or not. By sight one has to assume the weapon is a working firearm.

    Your point is invalid, the officer did have the right. Even though I think the kid shouldn't have had a realistic looking gun. If the orange tip was on the firearm, the officer should've known better by sight. If you've some other information not presented by the story, I'd love to hear it.

    Marines are trained, much more than law enforcement, which would've also made the shot due to threat of attack.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Your point is invalid. Marines are trained not only more but differently.

    I'm sorry, but if you feel that police should operate under the same rules of engagement as the military I'm going to disagree. The militarization of the police is not a good thing. Cops are not soldiers.

    Edit: As for this specific incident I'm not going to continue to debate it until and unless we know A: what kind of toy gun? Exactly what did it look like? B: Exactly how was this kid behaving? Playing cops and robbers doesn't sound aggressive, yet the kid was shot. Was he being aggressive, or merely innocently holding a toy gun?

    There's a big difference between a kid on a bike pointing a toy gun at a cop and going "PEW PEW!" and a thuglet trying to be intimidating with his gat. Seeing as we don't know what the case is, all of the above speculation (including my own) is worth less than we paid for it.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Okay, so you're saying let someone put a bullet to the cop's head before allowing him to fight back. Why don't you "wait until shots are being fired" before drawing your gun. Police should and do have the same right to shoot if a weapon is being raised to them. In the same aspect if the weapon were a blunt knife and the kid was brandishing in a angered 10 feet away the cop should shoot as well.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Okay, so you're saying let someone put a bullet to the cop's head before allowing him to fight back. Why don't you "wait until shots are being fired" before drawing your gun. Police should and do have the same right to shoot if a weapon is being raised to them. In the same aspect if the weapon were a blunt knife and the kid was brandishing in a angered 10 feet away the cop should shoot as well.
    Where did I say that? I'd like you to quote me.

    What I said was, seeing as it turned out this kid was playing Cops & Robbers, I would like to think that as an officer I would have found that fact out before shooting. Since the kid didn't have a gun there are no shots to be flying. Eventually that fact would have made itself clear.

    Once again, we don't know enough. Maybe the kid really did point a scary-looking realistic toy gun right at the cop in an aggressive fashion. If that's what happened, then the cop acted appropriately. I kind of doubt that's the case, but I'm not going to convict the guy here on OCDO either.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    >.> I've seen paintball guns are are made to be a realistic Glock or ar15 clone. If I were in he specific officer's shoes I wouldn't have taken the chance.

    The kid may be some to blame, but realistically this comes down to parenting... Thats right... None of this "The XBOX will teach my kid" time.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I find it quite disturbing that we are even discussing "Rules of Engagement" for a civilian police force.

    That's fine in a military context: your troops are there solely to "engage" the enemy, so its acceptable to spell out simple, black-and-wite rules for what constitutes a "threat" which may be responded to with lethal force.

    However, if I as a civilian were involved in a self-defense shooting, and all I had to point to in my defense were Rules of Engagement from a war zone, I would be put in prison so fast my head would spin.

    It's the same for civilian police. This isn't a war zone. Each decision to employ lethal force should be a result of the same careful consideration and judgement that a non-police citizen would be expected to engage in. This is a circumstantial thing, where you will have to convince a jury that your life was in danger and you acted appropriately. It's much more complicated than "If he has a gun, you get to shoot him", which is basically the rules of engagement as they are actually practiced in a war zone.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    >.> I've seen paintball guns are are made to be a realistic Glock or ar15 clone. If I were in he specific officer's shoes I wouldn't have taken the chance.

    The kid may be some to blame, but realistically this comes down to parenting... Thats right... None of this "The XBOX will teach my kid" time.
    Sure, and I've seen enough teenagers wielding these things that I'd like to think I could tell the two apart from context if nothing else.

    Now, if the person's pretending they're about to shoot you with it, the context is going to lead you to respond with lethal force of your own. That's fine, and once again if that's what happened here the officer acted appropriately.

    But most of the time I see people with hyper-realistic toy guns I am not compelled to kill them, even when they are pointed at me (there's that whole "body language" phenomenon, I suggest you check it out sometime).

    And yes poor parenting is to blame. My parents always bought me colorful toy guns. :P

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