Question----- about giving ID/CPL to Police.

imported post

Quick question-
If you're the passenger in a vehicle and the driver is pulled over, do you have to disclose? I assume not, because it's not you that's being stopped but I just want to make sure before I mess up.

imported post

EM87 wrote:

Quick question-
If you're the passenger in a vehicle and the driver is pulled over, do you have to disclose? I assume not, because it's not you that's being stopped but I just want to make sure before I mess up.

Click to expand...

Most lawyers tell you to err on the side of caution and disclose.

There has yet to be case law that defines this for us. As for me? I'll probably disclose.

imported post

zigziggityzoo wrote:

DrTodd wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

When the officer ordered the "hands over head", it was a detention.

Click to expand...

The way it was written, I wasn't sure if the officer said it to her husband or her, or all of them. Since you seem to be saying she was the person to whom the officer referred, you are right, she was stopped.

Thanks for the correction.

Click to expand...

It was only directed at him. The other two were just ordered to stay back. They weren't even assigned an officer to watch/question them, even though multiple were present.

Click to expand...

In that case (specifically) I wouldn't feel inclined to disclose, since I would not feel like the officer was stopping me. It's not like he struck up a conversation, he just maintained a perimeter.

imported post

EM87 wrote:

Quick question-
If you're the passenger in a vehicle and the driver is pulled over, do you have to disclose? I assume not, because it's not you that's being stopped but I just want to make sure before I mess up.

Click to expand...

Absolutely disclose. If you are a passenger in a vehicle that is stopped, it is reasonable to assume that you are not going to just leave. This is a recent ruling, and many officers have interpreted it to mean that all passengers fall under detainment during the stop. As a result, they believe that the passengers are not free to leave.

When it doubt, disclose.

imported post

zigziggityzoo wrote:

DrTodd wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

When the officer ordered the "hands over head", it was a detention.

Click to expand...

The way it was written, I wasn't sure if the officer said it to her husband or her, or all of them. Since you seem to be saying she was the person to whom the officer referred, you are right, she was stopped.

Thanks for the correction.

Click to expand...

It was only directed at him. The other two were just ordered to stay back. They weren't even assigned an officer to watch/question them, even though multiple were present.

Click to expand...

So I guess I did read it correctly? My original point still stands, then. If the PO says anything to me, I ignore it until I am told to stop or am given any other clear indication that I am not free to go. This eliminates the question of the relative "voluntariness" of my interaction by bringing it up to the "Terry Stop", articulable suspicion, level. But informing them of the pistol is the last thing I say until I start asking whether I may leave.

I know this can be very difficult for all of us at some point or another. We are confident we are "right" when it comes to understanding firearms law and want to avoid escalating the situation. Or perhaps we believe that by informing the officer that they are mistaken in regards to the particular law, they will say "Gee, I guess I am wrong, have a nice day."

Has this ever happened? I can't recall any posts listed in MI/OC where it has. IMHO, 99.9% of the time all one is going to do is say something that "will be used against you in a court of law".

An official stop by an LEO necessitates disclosure of concealed carry; but that is all they should get. If you want to inform during those "gray" interactions others have mentioned, I think that may be prudent also. But, when you do inform, make sure that those words are your last until you ask if you are free to go.

imported post

DrTodd wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

DrTodd wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

When the officer ordered the "hands over head", it was a detention.

Click to expand...

The way it was written, I wasn't sure if the officer said it to her husband or her, or all of them. Since you seem to be saying she was the person to whom the officer referred, you are right, she was stopped.

Thanks for the correction.

Click to expand...

It was only directed at him. The other two were just ordered to stay back. They weren't even assigned an officer to watch/question them, even though multiple were present.

Click to expand...

So I guess I did read it correctly? My original point still stands, then. If the PO says anything to me, I ignore it until I am told to stop or am given any other clear indication that I am not free to go. This eliminates the question of the relative "voluntariness" of my interaction by bringing it up to the "Terry Stop", articulable suspicion, level. But informing them of the pistol is the last thing I say until I start asking whether I may leave.

I know this can be very difficult for all of us at some point or another. We are confident we are "right" when it comes to understanding firearms law and want to avoid escalating the situation. Or perhaps we believe that by informing the officer that they are mistaken in regards to the particular law, they will say "Gee, I guess I am wrong, have a nice day."

Has this ever happened? I can't recall any posts listed in MI/OC where it has. IMHO, 99.9% of the time all one is going to do is say something that "will be used against you in a court of law".

An official stop by an LEO necessitates disclosure of concealed carry; but that is all they should get. If you want to inform during those "gray" interactions others have mentioned, I think that may be prudent also. But, when you do inform, make sure that those words are your last until you ask if you are free to go.

Click to expand...

+1

I don't think being told to "stay back" even comes close to an officer "stopping" you. It's more like the opposite IMHO. OTOH, if your going to disclose, I would want to establish immediately that it is not a voluntary stop (as if that isn't a contradiction in terms).

imported post

EM87 wrote:

Quick question-
If you're the passenger in a vehicle and the driver is pulled over, do you have to disclose? I assume not, because it's not you that's being stopped but I just want to make sure before I mess up.

Click to expand...

I believe there is some case law and perhaps a supreme court ruling that states that all people are "detained" in a vehicle that is stopped, so one could argue that all are indeed stopped and you should disclose. I would disclose in this case, just to be sure.

imported post

Venator wrote:

EM87 wrote:

Quick question-
If you're the passenger in a vehicle and the driver is pulled over, do you have to disclose? I assume not, because it's not you that's being stopped but I just want to make sure before I mess up.

Click to expand...

I believe there is some case law and perhaps a supreme court ruling that states that all people are "detained" in a vehicle that is stopped, so one could argue that all are indeed stopped and you should disclose. I would disclose in this case, just to be sure.

Click to expand...

i agree.... if i did not have my CPL i would not even have to give the officer my ID or name if i am only a passenger in a car being stopped, but since I have my CPL, whehter carrying or not i would disclose, because i guess it is my understanding that we HAVE to under those circumstances, whther carrying or not, even as a passenger.

imported post

stephgrinage23 wrote:

Venator wrote:

EM87 wrote:

Quick question-
If you're the passenger in a vehicle and the driver is pulled over, do you have to disclose? I assume not, because it's not you that's being stopped but I just want to make sure before I mess up.

Click to expand...

I believe there is some case law and perhaps a supreme court ruling that states that all people are "detained" in a vehicle that is stopped, so one could argue that all are indeed stopped and you should disclose. I would disclose in this case, just to be sure.

Click to expand...

i agree.... if i did not have my CPL i would not even have to give the officer my ID or name if i am only a passenger in a car being stopped, but since I have my CPL, whehter carrying or not i would disclose, because i guess it is my understanding that we HAVE to under those circumstances, whther carrying or not, even as a passenger.

Click to expand...

You only have to disclose if you are carrying a concealed gun. If you do not have a loaded weapon on you or in your vehicle you DO NOT HAVE to disclose you have a CPL. If you are not carrying what are you going to disclose "Hey officer, I don't have a gun on me."?

imported post

stephgrinage23 wrote:

Venator wrote:

EM87 wrote:

Quick question-
If you're the passenger in a vehicle and the driver is pulled over, do you have to disclose? I assume not, because it's not you that's being stopped but I just want to make sure before I mess up.

Click to expand...

I believe there is some case law and perhaps a supreme court ruling that states that all people are "detained" in a vehicle that is stopped, so one could argue that all are indeed stopped and you should disclose.  I would disclose in this case, just to be sure.

Click to expand...

i agree.... if i did not have my CPL i would not even have to give the officer my ID or name if i am only a passenger in a car being stopped, but since I have my CPL, whehter carrying or not i would disclose, because i guess it is my understanding that we HAVE to under those circumstances, whther carrying or not, even as a passenger.

Click to expand...

Not true. You only have a duty to disclose while you're carrying concealed.

imported post

This is the exact reason why I included "...the key word in Section 5f is "carrying", remember this while reading through this section" in my post.

If you are not carrying in your vehicle you are not required by law to disclose anything pertaining to a CPL.

imported post

gotcha.... thanks for straightening that out for me guys!