imported post
sickntired wrote:
This is the official statement that I made in my complaint with the names removed.
On Saturday, 09 May 2009, I met with ….. at the McDonald’s located at 1131 West Mercury Blvd., Hampton, VA 23666 at approximately 1800-1900. We talked about riding later on if it didn’t rain and then I went home to take a shower. I made it back to Hampton sometime between 2000-2100. I was at the same McDonald’s when I met with …. We rode to the Burger King located at 1006 Settlers Landing Road, Hampton, VA 23669. We waited there for … and when he arrived we left to go to Norfolk, VA to stay south of the rain clouds. We arrived at the 7-11 convenience store located at 1510 E. Brambleton Avenue, Norfolk, VA 23504 to rest before we went to Virginia Beach. We arrived in Virginia Beach and stopped at the BP gas station located at 332 Laskin Road, Virginia Beach, VA 23451. We moved to the garage located next door to stay out of the rain for about 10-15 minutes then decided to ride down Atlantic Avenue to the Dairy Queen located at 1609 Atlantic Avenue, Virginia Beach, VA 23451.
While stopped at a traffic light I was approached by a Virginia Beach police officer on a mountain bike. He asked me why I was carrying two handguns. I told him that I was carrying them because they were mine and I wanted to carry them. I told him that I had a right to carry them and asked if there was any problem with me exercising my rights. He then asked me if I had a license to operate a motorcycle to which I replied that I did, but that it was none of his business unless I was being stopped for a traffic violation. I pointed out to the officer that the light had turned green and asked him if I was being detained. He said “just for a minute.” He then told me that because of where I was at that if someone felt threatened by me having guns that it would be a problem. I told the officer that it would be a personal problem for them because my guns were holstered and that I wasn’t intimidating anyone or inducing fear by simply exercising my right to carry. He then told me that if my shirt was to flap over them that they could be considered concealed. I told the officer that my shirt could flap over them or I could untuck my shirt and put it over them and it wouldn’t matter because I have a permit to carry a concealed handgun. I told the officer to have a nice day and he rode off.
We continued on to the Dairy Queen and stayed for about a half-hour. We decided to head back to Hampton, but as we were leaving we noticed ... and ... headed down Pacific Avenue toward the BP gas station so we decided to go and see if they wanted to ride with us. We met with them at the BP gas station and we all decided to ride to Granby Street in Norfolk.
We arrived on Granby Street in Norfolk, VA sometime after midnight on Sunday, May 10, 2009. We circled around a few blocks looking for a place to park and finally found a place on Granby Street near the intersection with Market Street. Shortly after we parked our motorcycles (approximately between 0045 and 0115) we were approached by several police officers who I later identified as … and a Sergeant who refused to give me his name.
The Sergeant ordered … to place his hands on the back of his head. He grabbed his hands and turned him around and began to frisk him. He asked the officer why he was being searched and the officer said to him “You know what we’re here for; we’re here for him.” He pointed at me as he was saying this. I pretended as though I didn’t notice the officers because I had a feeling that they had come to harass me.
Officer … approached me and asked how I was doing. I responded that I was fine and asked him how he was doing. He asked me if I had a registration for my guns to which I replied that there is no such thing as a registration for a gun in Virginia. He then asked me if I had a license for my guns to which I replied that there is no such thing as a license for a gun in Virginia either. He then ordered me to keep my hands where he could see them and I complied. He told me not to get an attitude with him to which I responded that I can have an attitude if I want to because it is not illegal to get an attitude. I then told him that I wasn’t doing anything wrong and that he was harassing me. I told him that I didn’t want to talk to him anymore and asked to speak to his supervisor. The Sergeant (that would not give me his name) said that he was the supervisor (who I later found out is not Officer … supervisor) and he doesn’t see anything wrong with what the officer is doing. He then ordered Officer … to take me across the street.
Officer … grabbed me by the inside of my upper right arm and began to pull me to the other side of the street. This was against my will because if he had asked me to go to the other side of the street I would have refused. I had done nothing wrong and knew that the officers had no probable cause to place me in a detention. He walked me right in front of a moving car. The cab driver slammed on the brakes and stopped so close to the officer that the officer put his free hand out as a defensive reflex and placed it on the hood of the car. He then yelled at the stopped car to “stop the cab.” I told Officer … to take his hands off of me and don’t grab my arm so tight. He responded that he wasn’t grabbing my arm tight and shoved me by my arm onto the curb across the street. Officer …tried to say something to me but I interrupted him to tell him that he wasn’t going to talk to me like a child. I told him that I was a grown man and that he was going to talk to me as such or he would be spoken to in the same manner that he was speaking to me.
Another officer approached me and told me that I was going to shut up and listen to what they had to say. They accused me of trying to show off for my friends and I pointed out that they were the ones that approached me. I asked him to take my guns off of me before we continued our conversation. He asked why and I said that I wanted everyone to be comfortable in this situation. He said to me, “Oh, I’m comfortable homeboy.” I said that I was too and asked him again to take them off of me. He said that he wasn’t going to do that and I said okay.
He started to talk and again, I interrupted him in the middle of what he was saying to protest the unlawful detention that I was in. There were several other officers around that witnessed all of the events, namely, …, and the Sergeant who would not give me his name. I repeatedly told the officers that what they were doing was illegal. I told them that I never get harassed like this in Hampton or Newport News and Sergeant … told me that I needed to stay in Hampton and Newport News then. I asked him if he was telling me that I can’t come to Norfolk. He said that anytime I come to Norfolk carrying guns that they were going to stop me and question me.
Then Sergeant … asked me why I had my weapons and I replied that they were mine and I was legally carrying. All of the officers kept trying to tell me that because of my surroundings that they have the right to check me out anytime they want to simply because I'm carrying weapons. They kept saying that because of my surroundings they have the authority to stop me and find out why I'm carrying weapons and that I should expect to be stopped.
I asked why they stopped me and I wasn't doing anything illegal and he said because I had guns showing. I asked why they weren't checking everyone else and he said that they didn't have any guns showing. I repeated what he said back to him and asked him if he was saying that anytime I come to Norfolk legally carrying a gun, exercising my constitutional rights that the police are going to stop me and question me. He said that they would and I told him that they didn’t have any probable cause to stop me and question me. He said that they have the right to stop anyone carrying a gun to check them out and make sure that everything is legitimate. I asked him sarcastically if he was serious and I made a comparison to stopping everyone who was driving a car just to see if they were properly licensed. I asked him how that was legal to which he responded that I was carrying concealed handguns so he could stop me and question me.
I pointed out that my guns were not concealed and that no one had even asked me if I had a concealment permit. I told him that the reason that they didn’t ask me was because I wasn’t carrying them concealed. He said that in order for them to not be concealed that I legally had to have them in a holster and not tucked into my waistline. I told the Sergeant that there was nothing in the law that required me to have my guns in a holster but for his information that they are in holsters that I was wearing below my waistline. I then told him that the law defined a concealed weapon as being hidden from common observation. I said to him that I have black guns that were against a white T-shirt as a background and they were easily identifiable as handguns. I said that if they were concealed that he wouldn’t have known that I had them and they would have never approached me. I asked him how they knew I had them and he said that he could see them but it would still be considered concealed. He asked me where my jacket was trying to allude to the fact that a jacket would have covered my guns. I told him that I wasn’t wearing a jacket. He asked me if I was riding a motorcycle without a jacket. I said yes and asked, is that illegal or something?
I told him again that my guns were not concealed and he was fishing now but that the other gun that I was carrying in my pocket was concealed. He asked me if I had a third gun in my pocket and I said yes, that it was in my right front pocket. He said that he wanted to see my concealment permit and my ID. I looked at Officer ... who was still standing in my face in front of me and told him that I was going to reach into my left front pocket and retrieve my wallet. I told him that my wallet was black, it is not a gun, and that I am not carrying any weapons in my left front pocket. He said okay and I got my concealment permit and my license out. I handed them to Sergeant … and told him that I was clean and had no priors or warrants.
The officers continued to say that I had three concealed handguns to which I repeatedly responded that I was carrying one concealed handgun and two openly. I told the officers several more times that what they were doing was illegal and that they were violating my civil rights by unlawfully detaining me without probable cause. Officer … said that I wasn’t being detained. I told him that I was being detained once he restricted my freedom of movement and said that if I had walked off or pulled away from him he would have arrested me. He didn’t have any response to that.
They continued to ignore me until Sergeant … came back with my permit and my license. I told the officers that I needed all of their names and they asked why. I said that I needed them for the email that I was going to send to the chief of police on Monday. I said that I needed to get my pen out of my pocket and that it was in the same pocket as my other gun was in. I asked if it was okay to get it and Officer … said, “No. I’m not going to allow you to do that.” I asked if it was okay if I took my cell phone off of my hip and he said yes. I took the names of Officer …, Officer …, Sergeant …, and Sergeant ….
I looked over to get the name of the other Sergeant and he said, “You don’t need my name. What you better do is get back across the street.” I said that I needed his name to include in my complaint and he told me to get across the street again. I said again that I needed his name and he said that since I know the law so well that I should know that I better get back across the street and that he wasn’t going to tell me again. I said, “Okay. Yes sir.”
I started to cross the street and the Sergeant said, “Yeah. You better carry yo tail across that street; and you better use the crosswalks.” I said, “Yes, sir and used the crosswalk (that was blocked by a police vehicle) to cross to the other side of Market Street at approximately 0125. I stood there and typed notes into my blackberry so that I could ensure I could recall all of the events. Afterward, I crossed back over to the other side of Granby Street. I asked the guys that I was riding with if they would make statements and be witnesses if I needed them to. They all said that they would and provided me with their full names and telephone numbers. We left Norfolk and went back to the McDonald’s in Hampton. We all left from there to go home.
The facts of this incident are that the Officers did not have any probable cause to approach me. I did not break any laws. Officer … illegally detained me without probable cause at the order of the unidentified sergeant when he restricted my freedom of movement. When he grabbed me by my arm it constituted assault because the detention was unlawful. When he walked me in front of a moving vehicle without first checking to see if any cars were coming or ordering traffic to stop he put my life and safety at risk. I’m certain that that constitutes reckless endangerment. All of the officers that stood by and watched this, condoned it, and did nothing to stop it are just as guilty as the one who put his hands on me and pulled me in front of that car.
I spoke with Sergeant … at the Office of Professional Standards and with the Chief Magistrate about filing criminal charges against these officers. I decided to file my complaint with the Office of Professional Standards while I decided whether or not to pursue criminal charges against these officers. This is my formal statement that I am submitting to your office and can be used to file my complaint.
Sincerely,
Matthew F. Jones
I must post anonymously, forgive me.
I agree that you were stopped illegally and unnecessarily by the officers here, but there are just a few thing I would like to point out that may have been better handled from your end. I'm just going to take some quotes and line up my thoughts.
"He told me not to get an attitude with him to which I responded that I can have an attitude if I want to because it is not illegal to get an attitude."
Right off the bat you've gotten off on the wrong foot.
Never match an officer in tone and wording. This accomplishes nothing and all you've done from here on out is escalate the entire stop emotionally. Once it has become escalated it will not settle.
Do not respond in kind to any comments like this. This just makes the whole stop a pissing match, illegal or not.
Politeness and professionalism is the key here. Remain calm but steadfast. Your demeanor is important, both at the moment of the stop and at any court case you may bring against the city.
"Officer …tried to say something to me but I interrupted him to tell him that he wasn’t going to talk to me like a child. I told him that I was a grown man and that he was going to talk to me as such or he would be spoken to in the same manner that he was speaking to me."
Do not interrupt the officers mid sentence. Now if you cannot get a word in edgewise, then speak up, but otherwise, let them get a sentence out.
What you should be doing at this point is politely questioning the legality of the stop. Calmly but confidently ask them what their reasonable suspicion for stopping you is. If they say it's because you are carrying guns, which happens in almost every case of this type, refer to Supreme Court cases (both State and Federal) that have specified that the simple carrying of a holstered gun is not enough grounds for reasonable suspicion, and therefore is not grounds for a stop.
Politely and respectfully explain the laws and your rights, while making eye contact with the officers.
Don't sneer. Don't add tones to your voice. Most importantly, do not tell the officer/officers what they are going to do or how they are going to do it. This leads them to believe that you are deliberately trying to be subversive and difficult, which does not help your plight.
Constantly and unendingly ask what the grounds for their stop is. Keep referring to the court precedents, politely.
If the officers tell you to stop citing court precedents, then stop. Go back to asking if you are being detained and asking if you are free to go. If they say no, then again ask what their reasonable suspicion is.
If they persist in saying it's because you have a gun and you are being detained, ask if you need a lawyer present.
If they say no, then say you have nothing further to say without a lawyer present.
Those should be your final words to them,
period. After a certain time frame, with nothing to pin on you, they
must let you go. They
will adhere to this law. At which time you are free to go about your way and follow whatever process suits you.
" All of the officers kept trying to tell me that because of my surroundings that they have the right to check me out anytime they want to simply because I'm carrying weapons. They kept saying that because of my surroundings they have the authority to stop me and find out why I'm carrying weapons and that I should expect to be stopped."
This is where they are blatantly wrong and where a tape recorder comes in handy. Judges do not like to hear this kind of stuff in court and will generally rule in your favor.
"They accused me of trying to show off for my friends and I pointed out that they were the ones that approached me. I asked him to take my guns off of me before we continued our conversation. He asked why and I said that I wanted everyone to be comfortable in this situation. He said to me, “Oh, I’m comfortable homeboy.” I said that I was too and asked him again to take them off of me. He said that he wasn’t going to do that and I said okay. "
Never respond to an officer's accusations.
This is bait! They are attempting to coerce you into saying something that might incriminate you, even if you have done nothing wrong! Never respond! Continue with the same mantra. Politely express the legality of your carrying, you need not justify it. Ask if you are being detained. Ask why and on what precedent you are being detained. Ask if you are free to go. If they say no, tell them you will say nothing without a lawyer present.
Never ask an officer to disarm you. Comfort aside, if they thought or believed you had been doing something illegal
they would have disarmed you from the very start. Never offer to surrender your rights or arms unless the officer gives a clear and specific order that tells you to disarm. If they illegally had you disarm and seized your weapons, that is something you take up later in the courts. You simply, but politely and respectfully, state that you do not consent to any searches or seizures.
"I asked why they stopped me and I wasn't doing anything illegal and he said because I had guns showing. I asked why they weren't checking everyone else and he said that they didn't have any guns showing. I repeated what he said back to him and asked him if he was saying that anytime I come to Norfolk legally carrying a gun, exercising my constitutional rights that the police are going to stop me and question me. He said that they would and I told him that they didn’t have any probable cause to stop me and question me. He said that they have the right to stop anyone carrying a gun to check them out and make sure that everything is legitimate. I asked him sarcastically if he was serious and I made a comparison to stopping everyone who was driving a car just to see if they were properly licensed. I asked him how that was legal to which he responded that I was carrying concealed handguns so he could stop me and question me. "
Don't make comparisons, don't make analogies. Explain the legality and continue the mantra.
Do not under any circumstance become sarcastic with an officer. This helps nothing, and again escalates the situation even further. Be confident and respectful.
"I pointed out that my guns were not concealed and that no one had even asked me if I had a concealment permit. I told him that the reason that they didn’t ask me was because I wasn’t carrying them concealed. He said that in order for them to not be concealed that I legally had to have them in a holster and not tucked into my waistline. I told the Sergeant that there was nothing in the law that required me to have my guns in a holster but for his information that they are in holsters that I was wearing below my waistline. I then told him that the law defined a concealed weapon as being hidden from common observation. I said to him that I have black guns that were against a white T-shirt as a background and they were easily identifiable as handguns. I said that if they were concealed that he wouldn’t have known that I had them and they would have never approached me. I asked him how they knew I had them and he said that he could see them but it would still be considered concealed. He asked me where my jacket was trying to allude to the fact that a jacket would have covered my guns. I told him that I wasn’t wearing a jacket. He asked me if I was riding a motorcycle without a jacket. I said yes and asked, is that illegal or something?"
Here is a perfect example of what I mean. He was trying to bait you the entire time into saying something that may incriminate you. If he really believed that you had been concealing, the very first thing he would have done is asked for your Conceal Carry Permit.
"I told him again that my guns were not concealed and he was fishing now but that the other gun that I was carrying in my pocket was concealed. He asked me if I had a third gun in my pocket and I said yes, that it was in my right front pocket. He said that he wanted to see my concealment permit and my ID. I looked at Officer ... who was still standing in my face in front of me and told him that I was going to reach into my left front pocket and retrieve my wallet. I told him that my wallet was black, it is not a gun, and that I am not carrying any weapons in my left front pocket. He said okay and I got my concealment permit and my license out. I handed them to Sergeant … and told him that I was clean and had no priors or warrants. "
This one is underlined for a specific reason and perfectly highlights what I've been getting at.
The officer baited you by accusing you of concealing the other guns you had on you. The bait worked. Now you have admitted that you actually did have a seperate gun that was indeed concealed on your person that the officers did not know about prior to your mentioning it.
What is the trap here?
Since you have admitted to having a concealed gun, the officers can now ask for your CCP and ID whereas before you did not have to provide them with those items. You now may not refuse to show ID and CCP together once they have knowledge of your concealed carrying. It is Virginia state law, if they ask for your CCP, you must provide the CCP and an ID of some type, you may not refuse.
You surrendered your 5th amendment right by speaking and they gained information that allowed them to force you to show your papers. It's a basic tactic, and one that is very legal.
"The officers continued to say that I had three concealed handguns to which I repeatedly responded that I was carrying one concealed handgun and two openly. I told the officers several more times that what they were doing was illegal and that they were violating my civil rights by unlawfully detaining me without probable cause. Officer … said that I wasn’t being detained. I told him that I was being detained once he restricted my freedom of movement and said that if I had walked off or pulled away from him he would have arrested me. He didn’t have any response to that. "
Perfectly illustrates my entire point. The officer said that you were not being detained. They you say the all important words "Am I free to go?". If they officer says "No." Then you ask again if you are being detained. He will say no. Then you ask if you are free to go. He will say no....... And you continue this cycle, until eventually you ask if you need to contact your attorney immediately.
From then on inform the officer that you have nothing else to say until either he releases you or your attorney arrives.
"I looked over to get the name of the other Sergeant and he said, “You don’t need my name. What you better do is get back across the street.” I said that I needed his name to include in my complaint and he told me to get across the street again. I said again that I needed his name and he said that since I know the law so well that I should know that I better get back across the street and that he wasn’t going to tell me again. I said, “Okay. Yes sir.”
In a lot of places, officer are
required to provide identification upon demand of a citizen.
All in all you were the victim here. They stopped you without reasonable suspicion and with no probable cause. Their attempt was to harass you into providing information and incriminating evidence so they could find something to prosecute you. But you could have handled the situation with much greater finesse and the whole thing would have ended a lot more smoothly.
My greatest advice: Never talk back to an officer. Never use a tone to an officer. Never insult an officer or tell them what they should do or should be doing. Don't argue with officers. Keep your facial expressions calm and confident, without a hint of any other emotion. Speak respectfully to the officers, be firm but polite.
Run with the Mantra:
"Under what reasonable suspicion have you stopped me?"
"Am I being detained"
If the answer is "No." then ask "Am I free to go?"
If the answer is "No"
"Am I being detained?"
If the answer is "No."
"Am I free to go?"
Keep doing this until the officer tells you to stop, then stop.
At this point ask him if you need to contact an attorney.
This may be a baiting point. This will most likely cause the officers to poke around with questions such as "If you've done nothing wrong, why do you need a lawyer?" or "Is there something I should know about?" or even "Would you need a lawyer if you are innocent?"
Do not respond.
Again say that unless you are free to go, you are contacting your lawyer and you have nothing to say at all until either your lawyer arrives or until the officer releases you.
At this point keep your yapper shut tight. Say
nothing to him and he will be, after only several minutes,
forced to let you go.
This is how it should've gone, this is how it should always go. Avoid the bait, avoid the traps. Once you have been released be VERY CAREFUL, the officers will be watching you for he SMALLEST INFRACTION so that they have something to pin on you.
Know the law. Know your rights. Be polite. Be confident. Be safe.