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Thread: Taxed for life, from birth

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    Hey guys, i'm not sure if this is even allowed to be posted on the open carry forums, but here we go ;D

    I have been enrolled in a tax from birth, for the rest of my life.

    First, let me make it known that I absolutely hate taxes. Further I can't stand being taxed without having the ability to stop it.

    When I was born, my mother (gods love her) enrolled me in social security. Now I'm 22 years old, making damn good cash and saving for retirement. Since I had no say in my enrollment, I am forever being taxed on my wages. This irritates the hell out of me, especially when I get on google and type any combination of, "opt-out social security," "get out of social security," etc and get nothing but "you can'ts"

    Now because I was a baby I could not have possibly understood what social security was, and now that I do, I don't want it.

    I wonder if I start by sending letters to the SS office about immediate removal what would happen. I'm not even looking to get the money I put in back, I just want out.

    There is no reason why I should have to be forced to pay this, when I made no signature on a dotted line for the enrollment.

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    This will be locked in about five minutes, but I think it's pretty interesting.

    What would you use in place of a social security number? SS is one of those things that's "optional" but they've made it so that you can't function without it.

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    well a tax payer id for personal income tax. beyond that i haven't fully thought it through. the only thing i'm really concerned about is the drivers license. I can't remember if a social is even required in nevada.

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    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    Hey guys, i'm not sure if this is even allowed to be posted on the open carry forums, but here we go ;D

    I have been enrolled in a tax from birth, for the rest of my life.

    First, let me make it known that I absolutely hate taxes. Further I can't stand being taxed without having the ability to stop it.

    When I was born, my mother (gods love her) enrolled me in social security. Now I'm 22 years old, making damn good cash and saving for retirement. Since I had no say in my enrollment, I am forever being taxed on my wages. This irritates the hell out of me, especially when I get on google and type any combination of, "opt-out social security," "get out of social security," etc and get nothing but "you can'ts"

    Now because I was a baby I could not have possibly understood what social security was, and now that I do, I don't want it.

    I wonder if I start by sending letters to the SS office about immediate removal what would happen. I'm not even looking to get the money I put in back, I just want out.

    There is no reason why I should have to be forced to pay this, when I made no signature on a dotted line for the enrollment.
    IANAL, YMMV, For informational purposes only, this is not legal advice, and I am not a lawyer, do your own research, etc.....

    Sending letters to the SSA office will likely result in them sending you propaganda back to you, which is a waste of everyone's time. I would not even bother with the SSA, because they are not there to help you in legal matters.

    If I remember correctly (it's been years), there have been cases where people have gone to court to have an SSN revoked on the basis of fraud on two counts.

    1) As a minor, you cannot contract with anyone. Your parents are your legal guardians, and did it for you, but it's up to you to object once you turn 18.

    2) There is no law that forces you to obtain an SSN, because a signature inherently implies a voluntary act. If the government could assign you a number at birth, they would just do it, but they cannot without your consent, or your parents. Ostensibly, all signatures signed under duress (force) are null and void in court, and are non enforceable.

    The IRS requires an individual obtain an SSN for the purposes of paying federal income taxes, however the same signature is required in order to obtain it from the SSA. From my understanding, without it, you cannot pay your taxes as an individual. Employers will not hire you as an employee, unless you have an SSN, because they are routinely harassed by the IRS to "ask" for them (a euphemism for require). Employers, not understanding the meaning of "ask", will elect to "require" them instead. Some people who live without SSNs do contract work, but I don't know any of these people, or if they exist.

    I've been following this issue for many years. The fraud you speak of is real, however the system that has been built up around you has been in place for many years, and you will be an outcast to society without an SSN (if you have it revoked). The government lawyers have made it intentionally difficult for anyone to live their life without an SSN, so they will "voluntarily" sign up to obtain one, and pay income taxes for the rest of their life. You also have generational differences working against you. Your parents want you slaving away to pay the social security payments they are due, since the government spent all the money, and receives SSN taxes via the general fund. SSN payments to current recipients are paid on an as needed basis.

    The fraudulent system itself needs to be changed, and the best place to start is with the Fair Tax, which will abolish the IRS and their terrorism of the American people.

    Welcome to collectivism!

    Visit http://www.nossn.org for more info.

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    As mentioned, even if you could get rid of your SS card, you wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere. The company is required to withhold income and SS taxes by the government, and they wouldn't be able to do that without a SSN. No company is going to be willing to take you on under those circumstances.

    Now, you CAN start your own business, but if you earn money (currency, federal reserve notes) at it (anything more than your business expenses), you will still have to pay your SS tax...and not just your share, but the "employer's share" (don't kid yourself, you're paying that part, too), as well in the form of the self-employment tax. Only if you only take barter in payment for your goods or services in your own company can you (legally) avoid paying either income or SS taxes.

    I agree with you- it's a crime perpetrated on an entire culture, but those are the facts.

    Unfortunately, it's only going to get worse in the future... MUCH worse. By the time you are looking at retirement, you'll probably be paying upwards of 75% of your income in taxes. That's assuming the entire economy and society doesn't collapse before then.

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    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    Unfortunately, it's only going to get worse in the future... MUCH worse. By the time you are looking at retirement, you'll probably be paying upwards of 75% of your income in taxes. That's assuming the entire economy and society doesn't collapse before then.
    All other things aside, society willcollapse before such such a tax rate is successfully imposed. It would be unsustainable.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    Unfortunately, it's only going to get worse in the future... MUCH worse. By the time you are looking at retirement, you'll probably be paying upwards of 75% of your income in taxes. That's assuming the entire economy and society doesn't collapse before then.
    All other things aside, society willcollapse before such such a tax rate is successfully imposed. It would be unsustainable.


    orly?



    These are just MEAN income tax rates. Add in all the other taxes and many countries have been at or over 75% for a long time.



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    First, let me make it known that I absolutely hate taxes. Further I can't stand being taxed without having the ability to stop it.

    You don't like it? Move. Lots of other great places to live without draconian tax laws.

    Since I had no say in my enrollment, I am forever being taxed on my wages.

    Waa, waa, you don't like it? Go setup a Self directed IRA, start a business, pay yourself with dividends,and you'll never pay SS taxes again. Seriously.If you can't find a solution, you aren't looking hard enough.

    Alternatively, you could go make a difference in someone's life and become a teacher. No SS tax there or go work for a rail road company, they have their own seperate deal too.

    You just aren't thinking enough about this.

    We won't have 75% in taxes, that would never happen. People would stop working (ala Laffer curve). Besides, why piss everyone off with oppressive tax increases, when you can just inflate the money, which few notice and nobody can stop?

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    codename_47 wrote:
    First, let me make it known that I absolutely hate taxes. Further I can't stand being taxed without having the ability to stop it.

    You don't like it? Move. Lots of other great places to live without draconian tax laws.

    Since I had no say in my enrollment, I am forever being taxed on my wages.

    Waa, waa, you don't like it? Go setup a Self directed IRA, start a business, pay yourself with dividends,and you'll never pay SS taxes again. Seriously.If you can't find a solution, you aren't looking hard enough.

    Alternatively, you could go make a difference in someone's life and become a teacher. No SS tax there or go work for a rail road company, they have their own seperate deal too.

    You just aren't thinking enough about this.

    We won't have 75% in taxes, that would never happen. People would stop working (ala Laffer curve). Besides, why piss everyone off with oppressive tax increases, when you can just inflate the money, which few notice and nobody can stop?
    Well first, I will not move. I love this country. Second I think you're being unnecessarily rude.
    Beyond that however, I'm not sure if setting up a business would be ideal for me at this time. I'm currently in the military and will continue to be for the next few years. So that leaves me with very little options at this time.

    There is a definite generational gap i've found on the issue of social security. I would say compared to my mother's generation, more of us young folk are saving, and actually investing for their future, making social security null at this point with it's current system.

    I had an idea for a nevada state social security to replace the fed's. And of course i'm just spit balling here.

    Nevada implements an optional social security program to where people buy into it using the same paycheck deduction method. This however goes to the construction of a state nuclear power plant. This power plant would sell power to california and other bordering states, guaranteeing an income forever.

    Really though I just don't like the socialization thing.

    Thanks for your time though guys. I just had to get the idea out somewhere. This is the main message board I post to.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I did not say anything about other countries. Other countries have government which provide a decent return on the taxpayers' investment. We do not.

    Edit: With that said, I did misspeak. I did not intend to say society would collapse, but rather government would collapse. Two entirely different events.

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    I also didn't say anything about a 75% tax rate. What I said was 75% of your income going to pay taxes.

    And yes, the economy (and society) will collapse before it gets that far. Inflating the money supply can only go on until the rest of the world refuses to accept US dollars. Granted, since most of the rest of the world is also running on an ever-increasing money supply, that may or may not happen. It just depends how fast we print money compared to everyone else.

    Also, you mentioned you are in the military. There is no way you would have been able to join the military without an SSN. If your mother hadn't gotten you one as a baby, you'd had to have gotten one yourself before you could enlist. So really, the discussion is moot.

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    For my defense panel in high school, I argued for a flat federal tax rate of 17 percent on the premises of Simplicity, Fairness, and Economic Growth. We crushed the panel.

    As much as I hate taxes, the government does have to pay for its governance. If we did not force taxes, everyone would be a free rider and the government would generate no revenue.

    Taxes must be simplified and reformed. Join your local TEA Party again on July 4. This is not a one time deal.

    teapartyday.com

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    You're almost there.

    Government does have to pay for its governance, true. But have you asked, "what exactly does that entail?"

    You can find the answers in the constitution. It lays out very specifically what government is supposed to do. The cost of doing those things and nothing more is so small that federal taxes could be a fraction of a percent of what they are now, and still run a surplus.

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    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    You're almost there.

    Government does have to pay for its governance, true. But have you asked, "what exactly does that entail?"

    You can find the answers in the constitution. It lays out very specifically what government is supposed to do. The cost of doing those things and nothing more is so small that federal taxes could be a fraction of a percent of what they are now, and still run a surplus.
    If only the world was still so simple.

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    Well first, I will not move. I love this country.

    I don't think love of country really has anything to do with it. You can go be an Expat somewhere warm and sunny, and still love your country. Just because you may choose to live elsewhere doesn't mean you hate the US, nordoes living in the US mean you love your country.There are lots of other great places to live, and you don't have to renounce your citizenship to avoid paying SS. It is an option. You present a false dilemma.

    I'm not being rude, you are just complaining about a very, very, very simple problem as if it is an all or none thing, and to be frank about it, your statement illustrates that youdon't know very much about taxes or SS at all. I don't think you've done even the most basic of research into the issue. I don't mean to be offensive, but you need to do a LOTof reading before you rant about somethingas an impossible certainty, when it is not.

    You don't have to pay SS. You really, really don't. If it REALLY pisses you off and makes you violently ill just looking at your W2, go be a teacher, or better yet, go be a teacher, AND teach overseas! That way you avoid state, medicare, federal, and SS taxes entirely. (assuming youmake less tha 80k and even then if youcan make 80k tax free, you really shouldn't be complaining about anything.)Invest the majority of your money in dividend paying stocks or investments and thumb your nose at the SS Administration.

    I also didn't say anything about a 75% tax rate. What I said was 75% of your income going to pay taxes.


    I am going to need you to help me out on how a person could pay 75% of their income without the tax rate being 75%. I really don't see the difference or how the laffer curvewouldn't apply in either case.

    I would say compared to my mother's generation, more of us young folk are saving, and actually investing for their future, making social security null at this point with it's current system.

    You don't know what you are talking about. The US savings rate JUST turned positive and has averaged in the 3-4% since the year 2000. It has declined steadily for the last 30+ years in the US.China averages around 40%. Granted, the savings rate has increased a bit as of late, and may even get into the double digits, but we as a country aren't saving any incredible amount of money, certainly not enough to retire on. SS is a good thing overall, it would just be nice if Congress wouldn't spend the SS surplus every year...If you haven't noticed, people as a whole tend to make some colossal blunders financially, even the smart guys, just go ask the folks at Lehman, AIG, Fannie, or Freddie or any of the other bankrupt or fundamentally bankrupt companies that had legions of ivy leagueMBA's...

    http://www.bea.gov/briefrm/saving.htm

    I had an idea for a nevada state social security to replace the fed's. And of course i'm just spit balling here.

    Clearly.

    Nevada implements an optional social security program to where people buy into it using the same paycheck deduction method. This however goes to the construction of a state nuclear power plant. This power plant would sell power to california and other bordering states, guaranteeing an income forever.

    Really though I just don't like the socialization thing.


    First of all,it's called SOCIALISMI'm sure the word you were looking for is SOCIALISM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#Economics

    Economically, socialism denotes an economic system of state ownership and/or worker ownership of the means of production and distribution.

    Let me get this straight...you don't like socialism, but you like the idea of private retirement assets funding the construction of a nuclear plant? Egads, I've gone blind just reading that!

    Ok, so I'm going to tempt fate and ask how exactly is a powerplant going to fund someone's retirement?

    How much is Uranium per pound?

    If building a nuclear power plant is such a great idea, why isn't there one present already?

    Please, do yourself a favor and order one of these. Seriously.

    http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Economics-Student-Gregory-Mankiw/dp/0324224729/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242186591& amp;sr=8-1

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    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    Hey guys, i'm not sure if this is even allowed to be posted on the open carry forums, but here we go ;D

    I have been enrolled in a tax from birth, for the rest of my life.

    First, let me make it known that I absolutely hate taxes. Further I can't stand being taxed without having the ability to stop it.

    When I was born, my mother (gods love her) enrolled me in social security. Now I'm 22 years old, making damn good cash and saving for retirement. Since I had no say in my enrollment, I am forever being taxed on my wages. This irritates the hell out of me, especially when I get on google and type any combination of, "opt-out social security," "get out of social security," etc and get nothing but "you can'ts"

    Now because I was a baby I could not have possibly understood what social security was, and now that I do, I don't want it.

    I wonder if I start by sending letters to the SS office about immediate removal what would happen. I'm not even looking to get the money I put in back, I just want out.

    There is no reason why I should have to be forced to pay this, when I made no signature on a dotted line for the enrollment.
    After all, that's exactly why I call myself "overtaxed" on this forum!
    Not only do I feel like I'm paying out way too much, but I work incredibly hard just
    to pay my taxes and have a bit left over for life expenses, retirement contribs, etc...

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    1) As a minor, you cannot contract with anyone. Your parents are your legal guardians, and did it for you, but it's up to you to object once you turn 18.

    I will agree here. I've been reading more and more about social security over the last few days. I haven't even jumped into nevada's need for a SS number.

    I've got a lot of time to think about this one about two years to go, so we'll see where it falls.

    After all, that's exactly why I call myself "overtaxed" on this forum!
    Not only do I feel like I'm paying out way too much, but I work incredibly hard just
    to pay my taxes and have a bit left over for life expenses, retirement contribs, etc...


    And amen brother!

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    Seriously? You're telling him to learn economics from a Keynesian? Are you nuts?

    If you want to learn about economics, learn Austrian economics: http://www.mises.org/


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    Keynesian economics are the opposite of supply-side; in essence they are demand-side economics. Instead of having a surplus of goods, Keynesian theory regulates demand and the economy is always playing catch-up.

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    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    1) As a minor, you cannot contract with anyone. Your parents are your legal guardians, and did it for you, but it's up to you to object once you turn 18.

    I will agree here. I've been reading more and more about social security over the last few days. I haven't even jumped into nevada's need for a SS number.

    I've got a lot of time to think about this one about two years to go, so we'll see where it falls.
    You may as well forget about trying to apply this little nugget (item 1) to get out of your SSN. The second you used your SSN for anything after turning 18 you gave up all right to object (if you had any to start with). Contract law states that by acting on the contract after attaining the age of 18 you have affirmed the contract and can not use the "I was under 18" loophole.


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    arentol wrote:
    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    1) As a minor, you cannot contract with anyone. Your parents are your legal guardians, and did it for you, but it's up to you to object once you turn 18.

    I will agree here. I've been reading more and more about social security over the last few days. I haven't even jumped into nevada's need for a SS number.

    I've got a lot of time to think about this one about two years to go, so we'll see where it falls.
    You may as well forget about trying to apply this little nugget (item 1) to get out of your SSN. The second you used your SSN for anything after turning 18 you gave up all right to object (if you had any to start with). Contract law states that by acting on the contract after attaining the age of 18 you have affirmed the contract and can not use the "I was under 18" loophole.
    How about the lack of full disclosure voiding the contract?

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    arentol wrote:
    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    1) As a minor, you cannot contract with anyone. Your parents are your legal guardians, and did it for you, but it's up to you to object once you turn 18.

    I will agree here. I've been reading more and more about social security over the last few days. I haven't even jumped into nevada's need for a SS number.

    I've got a lot of time to think about this one about two years to go, so we'll see where it falls.
    You may as well forget about trying to apply this little nugget (item 1) to get out of your SSN. The second you used your SSN for anything after turning 18 you gave up all right to object (if you had any to start with). Contract law states that by acting on the contract after attaining the age of 18 you have affirmed the contract and can not use the "I was under 18" loophole.
    How about the lack of full disclosure voiding the contract?
    Strictly speaking an SSN isn't even a contract, so really all of the above is kind of irrelevant. I only mentioned it in those terms because the person that brought up the whole parents/minor contract thing apparently thought that standard contract law applied and I was pointing out that even if it did it wouldn't help in this case.

    I don't know what kind of law would apply to trying to "Cancel" your SSN, but I would give it a 10% chance at best to be contract law anyway.



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    arentol wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:
    arentol wrote:
    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    1) As a minor, you cannot contract with anyone. Your parents are your legal guardians, and did it for you, but it's up to you to object once you turn 18.

    I will agree here. I've been reading more and more about social security over the last few days. I haven't even jumped into nevada's need for a SS number.

    I've got a lot of time to think about this one about two years to go, so we'll see where it falls.
    You may as well forget about trying to apply this little nugget (item 1) to get out of your SSN. The second you used your SSN for anything after turning 18 you gave up all right to object (if you had any to start with). Contract law states that by acting on the contract after attaining the age of 18 you have affirmed the contract and can not use the "I was under 18" loophole.
    How about the lack of full disclosure voiding the contract?
    Strictly speaking an SSN isn't even a contract, so really all of the above is kind of irrelevant. I only mentioned it in those terms because the person that brought up the whole parents/minor contract thing apparently thought that standard contract law applied and I was pointing out that even if it did it wouldn't help in this case.

    I don't know what kind of law would apply to trying to "Cancel" your SSN, but I would give it a 10% chance at best to be contract law anyway.

    I have thought about the possibility that it's not a contract, but I am simply repeating what I have been told. You are signing something, and a person can have that signature nullified, and whatever was agreed to, due to fraud.

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    I am losing sleep trying to figure out how to hijack this thread and steer it on SOME topic relevant to the RTKBA. Okay, I know.

    Taxes? how about taxes on firearms and ammo?? Freedom of religion is an enumerated right just as is RTKBA. They cannot tax churches. RTKBA is an enumerated right. So WTF is this when we have to pay tax on arms, ammo and range time?? I'd like to give these jerks a box of "tax" and tell them to sit on one. Does the Washington Post have to affix a tax stamp to every copy? NO?? Why not? Does the "Reverend" Al Sharpton have to pay a tax for flapping his big mouth in public? NO?? Why not?? and do I have to pay a tax when I buy a gun, ammo, or rent some range time? YES??? FOR WHAT???

    Never mind. I need a nice cup of tea.

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    I am losing sleep trying to figure out how to hijack this thread and steer it on SOME topic relevant to the RTKBA. Okay, I know.

    Taxes? how about taxes on firearms and ammo?? Freedom of religion is an enumerated right just as is RTKBA. They cannot tax churches. RTKBA is an enumerated right. So WTF is this when we have to pay tax on arms, ammo and range time?? I'd like to give these jerks a box of "tax" and tell them to sit on one. Does the Washington Post have to affix a tax stamp to every copy? NO?? Why not? Does the "Reverend" Al Sharpton have to pay a tax for flapping his big mouth in public? NO?? Why not?? and do I have to pay a tax when I buy a gun, ammo, or rent some range time? YES??? FOR WHAT???

    Never mind. I need a nice cup of tea.
    +1 Don't forget to dress like an "Indian" before you pour yourself a cup!

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